The Chronicle of the Horse
MagazineNewsHorse SportsHorse CareCOTH StoreVoicesThe Chronicle UntackedDirectoriesMarketplaceDates & Results
 
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 22
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jun. 11, 2009
    Location
    The Lowcountry.
    Posts
    21

    Default Jump saddle questions for you geniuses....

    So...I sold my old saddle a few years ago that I had grown up doing hunters with (an Original PJ...ahhhhhh what heaven!) and ended up purchasing a used amerigo jump saddle that did it's job but just wasn't the same I'm currently looking at used bruno delgrange saddles but since the split (?) between BD saddles with PJs, I've heard the quality isn't the same...or maybe that's just chatter...Anyhow, i'm curious to see what everyone recommends as a great jump saddle...not necessarily one that's so forward-flapped for XC, but just an all around great jump saddle. My Original PJ had the huge balloon flaps and deep seat that I absolutely loved, so if anyone can recommend what they ride in that has similar features and preferrably isn't through the roof cost wise that would be fantastic! Thanks!!
    A canter is a cure for every evil



  2. #2
    Join Date
    Dec. 26, 2008
    Location
    Indianapolis, Indiana
    Posts
    605

    Default

    I love my Prestige Event. I use it for XC and SJ. I got mine on ebay NEW for a decent price. Looove it.
    Proud former owner of a Wee Dee Trrr
    Proud half-owner of a Picasso Pony



  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jan. 6, 2011
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    1,329

    Default

    Also love my prestige eventer. I had a bruno as well, and sold it because I needed to pay for rent and I was offered almost what I paid for it. I had an older one as well. You can still get the originals but I would not go for the pjs. Don't ride as well is my personal opinion.

    I like the prestige eventer because of removable blocks, flaps that fit my leg, adjustable tree, good quality, and sticky leather. You can also get the double flaps as well as the monoflap.

    Super nice for the price.
    I am on my phone 90% of the time. Please ignore typos, misplaced lower case letters, and the random word butchered by autocowreck.




  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jul. 10, 2006
    Location
    Far far away
    Posts
    1,997

    Default

    Yesterday I bought a Black Country Quantum after having ridden this particular mare in a half tree exercise saddle for the past year or so. I love her new saddle. Never have I felt so balanced in a saddle and my knee does not go over the front flap, and most importantly, it fits my most fussy and sensitive mare. I like it much better than the custom Stackhouse I had made a few years ago.

    Finding this saddle was the result of working with Patty Merli who is the most thoughtful and informed fitter I've worked with so far. After a very unsuccessful and expensive saddle fitting experience I interviewed many fitters before agreeing to have her come out. She listened carefully to what I thought I wanted for my comfort and listened to everything I had to say about my mare. Once here, she explained the comformation of my horse's back to me and then suggested saddles to try on my mare's back and explained why she thought those saddles would work. She had two with two different trees that fit my mare well, the Quantum and the Ricochet. Next I tried those two saddles, certain I would perfer the Ricochet. As it turned out, the Ricochet didn't work for me but in the Quantum I felt perfectly balanced and my leg felt placed perfectly. I'm not sure why, but for my conformation the Quantum was the one and I tried each saddle in a few sizes. I really didn't think I'd be able to find a saddle that would work for this very sensitive horse and me, but I did. Total price for a used saddle in excellent condition was a third of what I paid for the Stackhouse saddle, and the fit for horse and rider is a hundred times better.



  5. #5
    Join Date
    Feb. 13, 2005
    Location
    Columbus, OH
    Posts
    6,817

    Default

    I love the Quantum too and think it was an ideal choice for SEPowell and her mare...but it's very different from the PJ Original. Different seat architecture, different balance point, different flaps. And as the owner of an Amerigo, I can see how that would have missed the PJ Original mark too: thick wool panels won't feel the same as the PJ Original's foam panels, Amerigo places its balance point in one VERY particular spot ahead of center (compare this to the PJ Original's long working center right in the middle of the seat), Amerigo tends to be medium-deep in the seat whereas the PJ Original is pretty damn deep, and the rise to the pommel differs on Amerigo and PJ saddles.

    Regarding the reputation that newer PJs are "cheaply made," let's be clear that they are purposely being made and sold at a lower price point--and it's hard to capture $4000 of magic on $2000 of materials and workmanship. IMHO the US company that took over the PJ name didn't capture the PJ Original's long working center in their $2000 PJ Premiere or the $3000 PJ USA but they did manage to capture some of the PJ Original's other features. The Premiere and USA are perfectly decent little saddles for the price, probably great choices for folks who want a French-type saddle on the cheap and are perhaps looking for a CWD-like or Antares-like ride. But they're not what I'd buy if I wanted to recapture the magic of the Delgrange-made PJ Original.

    I can't speak to whether they pulled off the long working center in their USA-made $4000 PJ Original because I haven't seen it, sorry.

    I'd say if you were hell-bent on getting the old PJ Original ride, you'd be best off finding a used Delgrange Virtuose--or possibly a Partition if you can be flexible on the depth of the seat (Partition = medium-deep rather than super deep). A quick equivalency chart between old-style PJs and current Delgranges:

    PJ Original and Delgrange Virtuose
    PJ Euro and Delgrange Partition
    PJ Lite and Delgrange Athena

    Beyond that, you're chasing a unicorn by trying to capture SOME of the PJ Original's key features in another saddle brand. Not easy shoes to fill on a cheaper budget, but some cousins to consider:

    1. Prestige Event, as mentioned above. I've seen quite a few of these lately between $1300 and $1800, and the trees are dealer-adjustable if you're needing to fit a specific horse. Patty Merli's got two on consignment in 17" and 18". You might also look at the Prestige Hunter (not the Hunter Classic D) and Meredith, also possibly the Nona Garson but my hunch is that you won't be nuts about the Nona Garson. A blatant cut and paste from VTO Saddlery, which does a nice job explaining Prestige-ese, which is important when shopping for a used one: Prestige saddles are available in 3 seat sizes. The 16" fits like a 17". The 17" fits like a 17.5" and is by far the most common size. The 18" fits like an 18". For tree sizes, 33cm and 34cm are considered "medium". For a saddle that will be used on a variety of horses, 34cm seems to fit most horses very well. 32cm is for a horse with withers and a medium to narrow back. It will fit the typical TB type horse well. We have rarely seen a horse that will take a 31cm, and we have never fit a horse narrower than 31cm. 35cm is considered "wide". 36cm and 37cm are "extra wide" and we have fit several horses for these sizes. And if you were about to ask, VTO Saddlery will adjust your Prestige tree for $150 which includes return shipping back to you.

    2. A Butet, if you can find one in your price range. They're often more shallow seated than the PJ Original, but other features are very similar. For example:
    http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fb...type=3&theater

    ETA along this same logic, you could also look at some of the medium-deep-seated Beval Models like the Salem:
    http://bitsandbarter.proboards.com/i...d=17961&page=1

    3. The older Bates Caprilli Close Contacts, which were deeper-seated than the newer ones. Whether the Bates CAIR panels will strike you as similar to the foam PJ panels is anyone's guess, but when you can find these older ones, they're often very reasonably priced at around $800. For reference, an older Bates CC:
    http://media.horse-for-sale.org/lpho.../p89636006.jpg
    and a newer one:
    http://www.horsegroomingsupplies.com...2/img_1406.jpg

    4. Frank Baines Reflex with the foam panel option, retails around $2800 and fully custom at that price. If your priority is quality bang for the buck, a Frank Baines Reflex is probably your next-best option on this list after a used Delgrange.

    5. Barnsby Shockemohle, preferably with the foam panels not the wool panels, retails around $2500. If it's not a hardship for you, try the Reflex before you try the Shockemohle--they are both British saddles and will reflect that, but the Reflex is a little closer to the French mark than the Schokemohle will be.

    6. Dover Circuit Premier Special, retails $1099, a fairly new model so I can't speak to its quality or comfort level--if you were taking this option seriously, you might start a thread over in H/J to see if anyone owns one and will take real-life pictures of it for you. Keep it real about what $1099 is likely to buy you.

    7. Phillippe Fontaine Diane, Renee, or Danielle. The PF reps have blatantly told me that these saddles are largely the same in their panel and seat architecture, just with different cuts and angles to the flaps, and having examined them closely at trade fairs I tend to agree with that appraisal. So choose whichever one looks best suited to your leg. They retail at $995 so again keep it real with the quality expectations, but I've seen them in real life and you get a fairly nice little saddle at that price (unlike some other brands that retail in this range, where I think you get an utter POS) Classic Saddlery has one in 17" wide (which will be much more like a medium wide than a wide) on clearance/available for trial for $695.

    Good luck with your search!
    Last edited by jn4jenny; Mar. 12, 2012 at 02:04 PM.
    ________________________
    Resident COTH saddle nerd. (CYA: Not a pro, just a long-time enthusiast!)
    http://twitter.com/jenlmichaels



  6. #6
    Join Date
    Mar. 6, 2002
    Location
    Oregon
    Posts
    5,836

    Default

    Why not just get another PJ?

    I may be biased, but only because I HAVE one. There are a few out there if you look around - I've seen them as low as $1200.
    What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what
    lies with in us. - Emerson



  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jul. 10, 2006
    Location
    Far far away
    Posts
    1,997

    Default

    I just wanted to add to read jn4jenny's posts very carefully. Without her insight I would not have had the knowledge I needed to choose the fitter most appropriate for me, nor would I have been able to sort through the many saddles out there to zero in on what might work for me.



  8. #8
    Join Date
    Apr. 11, 2006
    Location
    Lodi Ohio
    Posts
    1,423

    Default

    I had a County Conquest, a Cliff Barnsby and in the end went back to my old PJ. Then I tried the Devoucoux monoflap, and the PJ hit E-bay.



  9. #9
    Join Date
    Sep. 22, 2011
    Posts
    42

    Default

    I second that the Prestiges are great! The DX is great for eventing, and I have the Vega Monoflap which I LOVE. Devoucouxs are also amazing and seem to be the most common around here for eventing



  10. #10
    Join Date
    Nov. 6, 2007
    Location
    North of Spokane, WA
    Posts
    381

    Default

    The first time I ever rode in a 1st-generation Pessoa A/O, I remember thinking it felt like sitting on a marshmallow. Maybe try one of those. They are probably pretty inexpensive on eBay any more.
    "I is Roxie!" yep.

    Ride on, ride on. All the bad things are gone.



  11. #11
    Join Date
    Feb. 19, 2007
    Posts
    221

    Default

    I second the Barnsby Schockemohle. I have two. One is the regular and the other is the Schockemohle Pro with deeper seat, more forward flap & calf blocks. Love them both.



  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jan. 9, 2012
    Posts
    92

    Default

    I 5th (?) Prestige Eventer. Hands down best saddle.



  13. #13
    Join Date
    Aug. 19, 2005
    Location
    Southeast
    Posts
    15

    Default

    Currently cross country saddle shopping and loved the jn4Jenny post. I have been loyal for years to my custom County XTR but it somehow does not work with my current horse the way it did for the previous three.
    I did like but not love one of the Black Country saddles Patti Merli allowed me to try.
    I sat in someone's PJ Original (2007 model) and fell in love.
    I also sat in a number of CWD's which I liked.
    Haven't sought out a Devoucoux which I plan to do.
    Already know I don't like the Amerigo.
    The only prestige I ever sat in was too small so didn't get a good feel for it.

    I tried the Dover version of the PJ original in their Test Ride program where they only offer a 17" It was ok, the leather was nice. They don't offer different flaps.

    Then I found a Delgrange rep, Kristin, who explained that PJ and Bruno have split. And the Bruno Delgrange saddles made in France are different from the current PJ Original sold at Dover. The Dover catalog does not mention the word "Delgrange" but the saddle bears a stamp with this name.

    I did find the balance to be similar in the new PJ Original and the old one as well as the current Virtuose.
    But I really loved the leather and the craftsmanship of the Delgrange Virtuose 2011 model I tried with the very forward X flap. I am just about to order one.

    After reading NMK's post here, I feel like I need to make a last stop with the Devoucoux just to make sure.
    Willow South Eventing
    Alpharetta, GA



  14. #14
    Join Date
    Feb. 13, 2005
    Location
    Columbus, OH
    Posts
    6,817

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by zelle View Post
    Currently cross country saddle shopping and loved the jn4Jenny post. I have been loyal for years to my custom County XTR but it somehow does not work with my current horse the way it did for the previous three.
    Well, I'm pleased to have a fan.

    Anyway, nothing wrong with your plan to order a Virtuose if it works for you + your horse. Hard to say if Devoucoux or a different Prestige would work without knowing more about which County you loved (XTR is a leather designation and can apply to many of their models--Stabilizer XTR, Innovation XTR, Fusion XTR, etc.) and which Amerigos/Black Countrys you hated.

    If you want to talk Prestige, I recommend Paul at VTO Saddlery. Few people know the Prestige lineup as thoroughly as Paul does, and he's a very straight shooter.

    If you decide to consider Devoucoux, you may also want to consider Voltaire. You'll need a budget to match since Voltaire is only a 3-year-old brand which basically forces you to buy it new, but based on your likes/dislikes list, you may like Voltaire even better than Devoucoux. You may also like Devoucoux; basically the people who like Delgrange for that close-contact feel through the leg also *sometimes* like Devoucoux, although Delgrange and Devoucoux get that close-contact feel through very different seat and tree architectures. So they do not ride alike. It's like saying that Hondas and Toyota both tend to have tight suspensions, but a Honda doesn't drive like a Toyota and they're not built on similar drivetrains. So some people will like Honda and Toyota, and others will prefer over the other. Same goes for Devoucoux and Delgrange.
    ________________________
    Resident COTH saddle nerd. (CYA: Not a pro, just a long-time enthusiast!)
    http://twitter.com/jenlmichaels



  15. #15
    Join Date
    Mar. 23, 2006
    Posts
    691

    Default

    I third the barnsby schockemohle.

    Fabulous gorgeous saddles that are beautiful, well made and put most riders in a great position. I have a lovely medium tree foam one that very sadly my mare outgrew (4 1/2 years old and she suddenly wears a 56" girth!! ).

    I'm debating having the tree adjusted but fear she will continue to (ahem) expand and will outgrow it again!



  16. #16
    Join Date
    Mar. 15, 2012
    Location
    Taft, TN
    Posts
    289

    Default

    I've ridden in my Stubben Artus for years and am very comfortable in it; in fact, when I needed to go down a tree size I shopped around, tried several different saddles, and ended up getting the same exact model saddle in the medium instead of the wide tree : )

    That being said, I'm also in the (slow) process of saddle shopping (at least so I know what to save my money up for!) because my Stubben does not fit my mare well at all. I tried a County saddle that I really liked, but alas, sat too low on her withers : (



  17. #17
    Join Date
    Aug. 19, 2005
    Location
    Southeast
    Posts
    15

    Default

    Thanks for that info jn4jenny.
    I have a Conquest (Extreme XTR) with some modifications.
    It was a great saddle for me - never fell out of it (had three falls - 1 per horse - where horse came down also)
    But I am really getting in my horse's way now. She has a slow motion powerful jump which is very different from the quick minimalist jumping style my last 3 horses preferred
    And I have noticed in all my pics over the years that my leg is always slipping, heel isn't down.
    When I sit in Delgrange Virtuouse and CWD SE02 and SE04, I find that I land off the jump in the driver seat instead of in recovery mode. I approach the jump with leg on and a sense of control, rather than just grab mane and kick.

    Smartpak has that free trial on a Schockemoehle so I have to do that. I will try Devoucoux if possible but won't cry after hearing your assessment about the very different tree and seat.



  18. #18
    Join Date
    Jul. 1, 2003
    Location
    PA
    Posts
    572

    Default

    To clarify the PJ / Bruno Delgrange question. Bruno Delgrange who originally made saddles that were marketed as PJ still makes beautifully crafted saddles. The new PJ USA saddles are of a different quality.

    PJ Original is a Bruno Delgrange Virtuose
    PJ Pro is a Bruno Delgrange Partition
    PJ Lite is a Bruno Delgrange Athena

    We also have a newer flatter saddle knows as the Rivolli.

    The bad news is there are very few Bruno Delgrange's on the used market - and the Virtuose model is the hardest to find at the moment.

    Let me know if you have any questions.



  19. #19
    Join Date
    Apr. 5, 2007
    Location
    Tampa FL
    Posts
    663

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Livetoride1286 View Post
    I'm currently looking at used bruno delgrange saddles but since the split (?) between BD saddles with PJs, I've heard the quality isn't the same...or maybe that's just chatter...
    true but it's the other way around, Delgrange are still amazing saddles, nothing has changed in their craftmanship, PJ just brought his name to the brand and left and now plays on the confusion... PJs were great saddles because they were manufactured by Delgrange. Now I cannot comment on the quality of the saddles that PJ is having made someplace else (I don't even know where), but I know Delgrange haven't changed and they didn't lose anything except the right to use PJ's name.



  20. #20
    Join Date
    Apr. 5, 2007
    Location
    Tampa FL
    Posts
    663

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LTLFLDF View Post
    To clarify the PJ / Bruno Delgrange question. Bruno Delgrange who originally made saddles that were marketed as PJ still makes beautifully crafted saddles. The new PJ USA saddles are of a different quality.

    PJ Original is a Bruno Delgrange Virtuose
    PJ Pro is a Bruno Delgrange Partition
    PJ Lite is a Bruno Delgrange Athena

    We also have a newer flatter saddle knows as the Rivolli.

    The bad news is there are very few Bruno Delgrange's on the used market - and the Virtuose model is the hardest to find at the moment.

    Let me know if you have any questions.
    hi there former competitor
    Do you have a job for me?

    Amandine
    ex CWD office manager



Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 17
    Last Post: Mar. 19, 2012, 10:05 PM
  2. Questions about sitting up after a jump.
    By ake987 in forum Eventing
    Replies: 17
    Last Post: Feb. 19, 2011, 09:50 PM
  3. from Discover: Why Athletes Are Geniuses
    By JER in forum Eventing
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: Apr. 21, 2010, 12:46 PM
  4. Jump chute questions
    By pippa553 in forum Hunter/Jumper
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: Mar. 16, 2010, 10:55 PM
  5. Replies: 3
    Last Post: Jun. 20, 2009, 11:53 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
randomness