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  1. #61
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    I don't understand why you or your trainer are getting jumped on about this. You fully admitted horse wasn't as far as you thought and thats your bad. You have had a massage therapist out and vet coming out to look at him to see where to go from here. Just because a buyer doesn't want a horse back doesn't mean there is something that wrong with a horse. Some people just don't care. Maybe they don't have the resources or money to train this horse and dont want to deal with it or maybe they don't like the horse or maybe they are getting out of horses. There are many people that will not take a horse back after it's sold. I would just because I couldn't stand to worry about the horse but not everyone is like cothers. I think you are doing what is right by this horse right now. You have said the horse is great on the ground so I don't see why you as a horse person can't handle this horse on a daily basis and work with your trainer and have the trainer work with him to break Jim properly if vet oks it. You are taking responsibility for YOUR actions and going through all the steps before just dumping this horse at a rescue, like rescues need anymore horses right now anyways. I would listen to your trainer that COTHERS recommended to you and let her help you along. Maybe this horse won't work out for you but at least you are willing to try to make him more of a riding horse for someone else then selling him on down the road where who knows where he will turn up. I think you are doing a responsible thing for your actions of rushing into this buy. It's not like you are a parent saying yea well bought this horse for kiddo and she's going to break him out as her first project. You have a trainer to help and that's what trainers are for. If you have the time and money I'd give him a little time and see how he does.

    Oh and btw I got you were meaning relaxed frame and not headset. I've heard you on here enough to not think immediately that your a dumb*** and you want him in a frame with no rider, no side reins, no nothing but a saddle. That would be kind of hard
    Horses aren't our whole life, but makes our life whole


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  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by babecakes View Post
    So, you bought a horse with questionable soundness with an as is agreement. And then you posted this publicly and you take offense when people react.
    Firstly, reread your first sentence, it makes no sense whatsoever. Secondly, I don't see any offense being taken by the OP at all. I see her calmly and courteously answering questions when certain posters have jumped down her throat and made huge assumptions with no basis for doing so at all.

    OP, FWIW I think you have a good plan & are sensibly enlisting the help of a trainer you trust & advice of a vet. I would definitely recommend lessoning on the school horses as much as possible while yours is in training so you can learn to ride English on a horse who knows his job and will take a joke.
    "Choose to chance the rapids, and dare to dance the tides" - Garth Brooks
    "With your permission, dear, I'll take my fences one at a time" - Maggie Smith, Downton Abbey



  3. #63
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    I don't really understand why the OP is being jumped on, either. She's admitted multiple times she made a mistake (heck, she says so in the thread title!) and seems to be trying to do her best to do right by the horse. She just asked for some guidance. All horses should have someone that cares about them that much.
    *Wendy* 4.17.73 - 12.20.05


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  4. #64
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    So you bought a super cute, very green horse. You took him to a new place and the first time you tacked him up he bucked.like a bronc... so what? Of course you are questioning your decision right now. And yes you probably should have thought your purchase out a little more... but you bought a really, really cute horse. Looking at the video he seems like a good boy. You have skills, you have experience, you have a trainer... you're going to be fine... and you'll learn a lot in the process.


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  5. #65
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    Aug. 17, 2012
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    South Range, WI
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    Quote Originally Posted by ddashaq View Post
    Obviously, I cannot know the whole story just by watching the videos, but it appears to me that the horse was started using Parelli-esque techniques. If so, that could explain why he has barely been ridden. Did they give you any more explanation of his training besides "ground work"? Like what exactly they did?
    I believe the owner said the trainer did do a lot of Parelli. I am not, by rule, very fond of Parelli at all and frankly was surprised this horse is as well behaved as he is... I haven't seen much good come of Parelli training.

    Honestly, I think the former owner sold him because she realized he was too much for her in his current state. After the trainer got on him a few times, she got on him and was bucked off. She immediately sent him back to the trainer, realized she didn't have time for a project horse, and set out to find him a new home.

    She bought him based on a pictures sent to her from her rescue owner friend who was picking up horses out of the kill pen. In other words, her purchase was even less thought out than mine was.

    Quote Originally Posted by babecakes View Post
    So, you bought a horse with questionable soundness with an as is agreement. And then you posted this publicly and you take offense when people react.
    The only "offense" I've taken is with people who seem to be trying to "show off" in their responses in being rude/making snide comments. I may be new to this forum but I've read a few threads so I wasn't wholly unprepared for those kinds of responses. I'm not truly offended... just responding in kind while trying not to be too catty/rude.

    Quote Originally Posted by candyappy View Post
    I am just curious as to how long he was at your place before you rode him for the first time?
    We actually haven't ridden him yet. He arrived September 29th and this past Tuesday was the first time we worked him. The trainer said to give at least a week for him to settle in before doing anything with him.

    The work was just getting him to relax and putting the saddle on and off. I suspect if we tied him or held him while saddling, he would shift and be slightly uncomfortable but then would be just fine. My trainer wants him to really get used to saddling and not just "tolerate" it so we're using the round pen and not holding him while we do it. I agree with doing things right rather than doing things fast.

    The trainer wanted to get his back and hip checked out before she got on, as well. We had the massage therapist work out the kinks in his wither and the vet will be out this afternoon to check him out completely.

    I would encourage you to do some free lunging( saddled) in the arena before you mount your boy, for the same reasons at first.

    You said they hadn't ridden this horse in a month or more. I think you should just relax, work him lightly at least 5 days a week , have your trainer ride him ( you fill in the other days on him) get to know each other and see where you are at the end of Winter. Even if you feel he isn't a good match by that time your extra work might make him easier to sell and will give you needed experience in the saddle.
    This is exactly our plan.

    Quote Originally Posted by rabicon View Post
    Just because a buyer doesn't want a horse back doesn't mean there is something that wrong with a horse. Some people just don't care. Maybe they don't have the resources or money to train this horse and dont want to deal with it or maybe they don't like the horse or maybe they are getting out of horses. There are many people that will not take a horse back after it's sold. I would just because I couldn't stand to worry about the horse but not everyone is like cothers.
    I want to be perfectly clear in that I think the buyer WILL take the horse back if at any time she believed he wasn't going to be well cared for. I don't know if she's in a position to take him back (financially) and I know she doesn't have time to train him. She seemed to genuinely care for the horse and did disclose the hip injury, the fact that he is prone to bucking, and the fact that she thought he'd have to be re-started in order to trust us. I simply thought I knew better and with all his groundwork, he'd be ready for a rider. I've run across plenty of horses where the riders are afraid to take things a step further and I thought this was one of those cases... I thought the reason why he wasn't doing walk/trot/canter with a rider was because his riders were simply afraid. I now realize he indeed DOES need a bit more work prepping for a rider before someone gets on.

    My issue is this: since I believe the former own DID her best to disclose everything about this horse, why should he be HER responsibility and not mine? She realized he wasn't the horse for her, put him up for sale, interviewed prospective buyers (she even checked a reference for me - my trainer) and sold the horse. I jumped in with both feet, didn't fully evaluate whether or not he would be the right horse for me... so why shouldn't I be responsible for what happens to the horse from here on out?

    I believe I have a better trainer than the former owner had... it sounded like more of a "friend doing a friend a favor" than an actual professional trainer. I DO have a professional trainer... so IMHO I'm in a better position to at least get this horse to the position where he can be ridden.. provided he's sound.

    I think you are doing what is right by this horse right now. You have said the horse is great on the ground so I don't see why you as a horse person can't handle this horse on a daily basis and work with your trainer and have the trainer work with him to break Jim properly if vet oks it.
    Thank you. The trainer has given me "homework" to work with him (once he's cleared by the vet) and hasn't given me anything I can really screw up or endanger myself or the horse.


    Quote Originally Posted by Event4Life View Post
    Firstly, reread your first sentence, it makes no sense whatsoever. Secondly, I don't see any offense being taken by the OP at all. I see her calmly and courteously answering questions when certain posters have jumped down her throat and made huge assumptions with no basis for doing so at all.

    OP, FWIW I think you have a good plan & are sensibly enlisting the help of a trainer you trust & advice of a vet. I would definitely recommend lessoning on the school horses as much as possible while yours is in training so you can learn to ride English on a horse who knows his job and will take a joke.
    Thanks a lot! Yes, my trainer has talked to me about how other horses will be more "forgiving" of my mistakes and a green horse might not. The OTTB mare I rode was actually fantastic with this... she didn't get upset at me bumping about trying to post or getting in the "ready" position when I thought something was going to go wrong. This is my biggest issue: when a horse starts getting nervous: I immediately tense up and get ready to go for a rodeo ride... which generally will have the effect of the horse also tensing up and wondering what there is to be scared of. Yes, perhaps it ensures that I don't fall off but if I didn't get so defensive, perhaps the horse wouldn't spook in the first place.

    Quote Originally Posted by fourmares View Post
    So you bought a super cute, very green horse. You took him to a new place and the first time you tacked him up he bucked.like a bronc... so what? Of course you are questioning your decision right now. And yes you probably should have thought your purchase out a little more... but you bought a really, really cute horse. Looking at the video he seems like a good boy. You have skills, you have experience, you have a trainer... you're going to be fine... and you'll learn a lot in the process.
    Thank you! He really is a good boy.. just didn't want that darn saddle on his back. It also wasn't the best saddle... the trainer figured it was going to end in the dirt so I don't blame her for not putting her best saddle on him.


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  6. #66
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    Feb. 16, 2010
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    Quote Originally Posted by nikelodeon79 View Post
    Honestly? I don't think the original owner wants him back. I'm not banking everything on her taking him back. If I do sell him, I'll give her the first opportunity, since she has first right of refusal. She's currently on a vacation somewhere (I'm FB friends with her and she posted yesterday about boarding a plane) so it's not like she can take him back now even if she wants him.

    I wanted a project horse to work with over the winter, and I have one. He's not as far along as I thought... that's my bad. If he's sound, I don't think it's a terrible thing to consider training him and seeing what kind of horse he turns out to be.

    Really, was it necessary to put in that "dig" at the end of your post? Just because I don't run out and immediately take YOUR advice means I'm living in a "fantasy land?" I absolutely rushed into this purchase... but that doesn't mean I should rush out of it. I'm going to take my time, consider my options, and decide where to go from there.

    I'm going to trust my trainer, and I'm going to take her advice over faceless people on the 'net who enjoy hurling insults. (That's your cue to start the "why did you post this thread if you weren't going to listen to us" posts).

    I DO appreciate all of the advice and will be taking everything into consideration. I'm just not in a huge rush to unload this horse today.


    Yes, exactly. Sorry if the TB people took offense. She just meant "different than a quarter horse," since that's mostly what I grew up with.

    I find it funny that people automatically question my trainer's qualifications based on false assumptions over terms she uses. BTW I found her based on recommendations on COTH.
    You don't even seem to have attempted to see if the original owner would take the horse back. But it's your decision of course. You don't have to do what I say, but you come on here asking for advice but when it's not the advice you wanted to hear you just continue on with what you wanted to do in the first place that makes me think you were hoping we'd all say, "It's okay, no big deal. This is going to work out great!" This is what made me say "fantasy land".

    You said you have confidence issues. The horse has a hip issue. You said bucking bronco. Possible future long term lameness issues. But he's cute and flashy! So you want him because he's pretty.

    It's no skin off of my back either way and I hope it all works out wonderfully for you. No sarcasm, no jabbing. I really do.


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  7. #67
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    Aug. 17, 2012
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    Quote Originally Posted by showhorsegallery View Post
    You don't even seem to have attempted to see if the original owner would take the horse back. But it's your decision of course. You don't have to do what I say, but you come on here asking for advice but when it's not the advice you wanted to hear you just continue on with what you wanted to do in the first place that makes me think you were hoping we'd all say, "It's okay, no big deal. This is going to work out great!" This is what made me say "fantasy land".

    You said you have confidence issues. The horse has a hip issue. You said bucking bronco. Possible future long term lameness issues. But he's cute and flashy! So you want him because he's pretty.

    It's no skin off of my back either way and I hope it all works out wonderfully for you. No sarcasm, no jabbing. I really do.
    Thank you.

    I honestly came on here not knowing what to do. I was actually leaning more towards not keeping him. But then I had time to think about it and assess my situation and decided to at least give it a go. And for the record, not everyone said they would get rid of him. The majority did, yes... but not everyone.

    And no, I haven't contacted the seller to ask if she'll take him back. I'm not ready to do that quite yet. I don't want to cause her undue stress if I'm not going to follow through with sending him back to her. I don't want to contact her and say, "hey would you take him back," only to contact her again a few weeks later and say, "never mind, I'll keep him."

    And I'll be completely honest here, part of it is pride. Yes, yes, I know "pride goeth before the fall..." but if I think I honestly can't do anything with this horse I would hope I could swallow my pride. If I DO decide that it's time to rehome him, the former owner will definitely know about it because she has right of first refusal. While I realize they aren't legally binding, I signed the contract and I will stick to my word.

    Obviously looks have a lot to do with why I chose this horse but I also passed over several horses that had the "look" I wanted but I just didn't get the right feeling about them.



  8. #68
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    Taking the side of the "firm" and possibly interpreted as harsh replies. Objectively, I think people took the time to reply in good faith. Quite a few (if not all) of the people who responded are experienced horse professionals who have had many opportunities to learn from their own mistakes and the mistakes of others. Given their expertise and experience and realizing that OP most definitely had NOT followed good horse buying decision making practices and that this horse was NOT objectively a logical choice AND that there might be soundness and safety concerns; I would have more concerns about replies that weren't firmly promoting returning the horse if at all possible. I understand how OP could feel under attack; but objectively, they wouldn't be doing you any favors and it really isn't professionally ethical to encourage or give tacit approval to something that in their experience and professional opinion is NOT a GOOD IDEA. Try to appreciate that they are honestly trying to look out for your best interests -- and are willing to risk hurting your feelings to do it. Tough Love.

    That said, I sure think that's an adorable horse; and I sure hope things work out for you both. But I am a complete horse beginner with a not so great track record of making the best decisions; and I am the queen of learning the hard way

    You're going to do what you are going to do; but I'm sure people felt a moral obligation to try to talk you out of this horse. As someone who has tried to help OPs in areas that I do have some expertise -- livestock guardian dogs and running a business; I have gotten absolutely and amazingly frustrated. In the case of the OP who was going to bring home a free to good home livestock guardian puppy to guard her free range birds on her 5 acre farm and who made clear that she was a light sleeper and didn't want a dog that barked; I can promise you that OP thinks I am a raging crazy mean bitch trying to boss her around

    So, just try to appreciate that the advice was given with good intention; and the "meanest" people are probably the most concerned about you.
    Disclaimer: Just a beginner who knows nothing about nothing


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  9. #69
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    OP --

    Make sure you check out the "enabler" thread you inspired -
    http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/sh...65#post6615965

    Disclaimer: Just a beginner who knows nothing about nothing



  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by rabicon View Post
    Oh and btw I got you were meaning relaxed frame and not headset. I've heard you on here enough to not think immediately that your a dumb*** and you want him in a frame with no rider, no side reins, no nothing but a saddle. That would be kind of hard
    Since this is in direct response to my comment...

    To me, "head in the proper position" implies something akin to a "headset". I read nothing in that paragraph that stated that the horse was wearing a saddle and nothing else. Had the OP said "getting him to relax" rather than "getting the head in the proper position" it would have been more clear. As written, it was not clear to me that what the trainer was doing was roundpenning the horse with just a saddle on.

    I asked for clarification because it was something that struck me as odd. I didn't mean to sound as if I was attacking the OP and I certainly don't think that the OP is in any way a stupid person. If I came across as attacking or harsh, I do apologize - it was not my intention.
    "Are you yawning? You don't ride well enough to yawn. I can yawn, because I ride better than you. Meredith Michael Beerbaum can yawn. But you? Not so much..."
    -George Morris



  11. #71
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    Not you snl. Others were snarky about it.
    Horses aren't our whole life, but makes our life whole



  12. #72
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    Aug. 17, 2012
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    I'm on my phone so can't quote pertinent parts of posts, sorry!

    I absolutely appreciate all of the replies and did not feel attacked. I do feel that a couple of people did choose to try to be clever on their responses in order to get a rise out of the peanut gallery but I enjoy those kinds of posts from time to time, too. Controversial threads get a lot of responses so it's good that people tried to make things interesting.

    SNL: I absolutely agree that I was not clear in my wording and do not begrudge those who asked for clarification. It got a bit frustrating when I was trying to explain and people were still getting the wrong idea and making comments about the qualifications of my trainer. People can say all they like about me; I'm here to defend myself. She is not, and it wouldn't be too difficult for people to figure out her name.

    At any rate, the vet evaluated him tonight. She said he is sensitive about his back, but she believes it might just be his greenness and not necessarily pain. She said he does take an "off" step every once on awhile but quickly settles down and starts moving more fluidly. She did not believe there is anything major wrong with him.

    He does have a respiratory infection, likely due to stress from the move, and is on antibiotics for that. I guess if I did decide to rehome him, it certainly wouldn't be until after he's recovered from that.

    I do appreciate everyone's concern, but I assure you I have no intention of getting into a dangerous situation. If I don't feel comfortable riding him when the time comes, I won't ride him.



  13. #73
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    Goodness the spiteful vultures came out sinced you posted a video of how cute your boy was (is).

    FWIW - I stand by my prior post of If he passes vet keep him bundle up and work with him over the winter and see what you have in the spring.
    The Denver Broncos went to visit an orphanage. "It's so sad looking into their faces so devoid of hope." Sara aged 6


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  14. #74
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    I have no objection to Parelli stuff, but I didn't like what I saw in those videos. I'm sorry we didn't get a chance to see them before you bought him.

    He's a cute horse, and I applaud you for trying to do the right thing. It's a very difficult situation to be in, and few happy options for getting out.

    I wish you the best of luck.



  15. #75
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    Can you elaborate on what you saw in the videos you didn't like?



  16. #76
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    Default Kicking the coronet

    Quote Originally Posted by Cindyg View Post
    I have no objection to Parelli stuff, but I didn't like what I saw in those videos.
    Anyone seen the use of kicking a horse in the coronet, causing more steps to avoid the pain, as punishment for taking a step? I have never seen that. Unfortunately, the punishment is inconsistent. I understand there are lots of methods and means but consistency is required for all of them.

    Of course, the horse takes more steps. Is this like 'You want to walk, fine then walker longer and faster than you wanted?'

    I do applaud the woman in the video for being calm and businesslike. My volume is turned off so if she is shouting, I can't hear it .

    Video 8
    1:23 horse takes 1 step back. Handler commences kicking the coronet. Horse takes many steps back.
    1:33 horse takes 1 step back. Handler does nothing.
    1:46 horse steps back. Handler starts kicking.
    ((3:05 handler pulls on his head seemingly to halt yet vigorously swings the end of the lead -a forward cue. Is that Parelli-style how-to-halt-while-lunging?))
    3:19 horse steps back no kick
    3:22 horse steps back, handler kicks


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  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by ldaziens View Post
    OP --

    Make sure you check out the "enabler" thread you inspired -
    http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/sh...65#post6615965

    And so far, I'm the only person on that thread who said the horse never did work out.

    Anyway, OP - I applaud you for taking responsibility for your mistakes. I'm still feeding mine, nine years later. Can't ride him. Can't even lunge him. Like you, I thought I knew better and could get him sound. Turns out, not so much. *shrugs*

    But I like the little miscreant (he's a cute paint horse, and the inspiration for my user name), and I have my own farm (like you), so it's not breaking me to keep him as a pasture puff.

    In fact, I learned a new training technique recently that I hope will allow me to exercise him without riding or lunging (which he can't do because of his knee). So, as I said in the other thread, I guess he's good for me in a way. Just not the way I'd planned. He's always kept me looking for new ideas.

    And he sure taught me what NOT to do when horse-shopping, I'll say that for him.



  18. #78
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    I would guess that a lot of people who made unadvisable horse purchases that didn't work out are out of horses entirely and unlikely to be reading this message board. kudos to you Paint for being so philosophical about the whole experience.

    To me confidence is the single most ingredient in becoming a better rider which is why when I read about timid riders taking on unwise projects I fear for not only their safety but also their enjoyment of horses in general.



  19. #79
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    It's possible horse ended up in kill pen because he was a bucker or had issues. However he seems pretty deadhead calm in the videos I saw. The "trainer" is a moron, I don't know what in the heck she is attempting to do with the poor horse but she's doing it all wrong and confusing the heck out of him. If this is how their "groundwork" went, then you can just assume the horse has never had any groundwork of any usefulness. Then you got him, how much work was done with him between the time he got to your barn and his first ride?

    I would literally go back to square one with this horse. Previous trainer has probably scrambled his poor brain and he has no idea what to think. Since you said he passed the vet check, just give him time. Not time off, but groundwork time. REAL groundwork time. Get comfortable with him, get him comfortable with you. Don't assume he knows anything, don't rush, don't skip steps. If you take it slow and steady, he should have no excuse to buck or react that way. If he was ok with being ridden (poorly) in those videos (unless he was aced, because he sure looked pretty dead eyed), he shouldn't have a problem if you give him the right basics and time. He might be worth the effort. But just prepare yourself that you might end up with a pretty pasture ornament.

    I did the exact same thing for a cheap, pretty, unbroke paint ;-) Unfortunately she didn't work out, but it had everything to do with the fact that she was simply batshit crazy evil with a loose screw. Had she been a normal horse, it would have worked out. So don't give up. But be prepared for it not to, and the money and heartache that go with that. With the additional info you gave, I would lean towards keeping him and giving him a chance. I hardly think it's fair to judge the horse after just one episode after he'd only been at the barn for a week. You won't ask the owner to take him back, you probably aren't going to find a buyer for him in his current state (unless you dupe somebody), so give him a little time and see what happens.
    OTTB CONNECT
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  20. #80
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    Well, My thoughts are that I did a similar thing in buying a horse that was greener than I had thought and was told. He is fine though I sent him to a baby trainer for a year-which was hard to do but necessary. He did not buck but he also didn't move, he did not understand forward. Two trainers said he was too green for them. He is now home with a trainer who only rides a couple of horses at my barn and she adores him and is teaching him to trail ride and jumping. He is ready for that after a year of being started.

    Really many of us who have a tendency to buy young, get horses younger and greener than we hoped. As someone else mentioned it is a BTDT experience for many of us. So you joined our little secret club, my other green horse became my trusted horse who was the nicest most responsive horse to ride ever. AND someone took him on an evening trail ride last night (accidently left so late it became dark) and he was a pretty good boy.

    Anyway, I really hope everything works out, I do understand the stress.



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