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  1. #101
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    May. 6, 2007
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    Napanee ON
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    Point Two is saying the vest saved another riders life. She has a punctured lung and some other injuries.

    The thing I find very interesting is the riders automatically attribute their survival to the air vest and not the traditional vest they're wearing underneath. It seems to me the vest is doing nothing but putting on a show.

    If I were Karen I would be doing some research into whether the vest furthered her injuries, she could have a compensation case.



  2. #102
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    Apr. 14, 2006
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    Saco, Maine
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    "...If I were Karen I would be doing some research into whether the vest furthered her injuries, she could have a compensation case."

    Hahaa, I'm pretty sure Point 2 would drop their sponsorship of the OCET if Karen were to look into that! ;-)

    THANKS to Reed and Wildlifer for making this so clear. I'm guessing I won't get an air vest for my daughter's Christmas! Not this year anyhow.
    Proud and achy member of the Eventing Grannies clique.



  3. #103
    Join Date
    Apr. 2, 2009
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    North Carolina
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jealoushe View Post
    The thing I find very interesting is the riders automatically attribute their survival to the air vest and not the traditional vest they're wearing underneath. It seems to me the vest is doing nothing but putting on a show.

    If I were Karen I would be doing some research into whether the vest furthered her injuries, she could have a compensation case.
    This and this. That helmet and foam vest are doing all the work and the wearable beach ball is begging for credit.



  4. #104
    Join Date
    Sep. 7, 1999
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    Tuscaloosa, Alabama
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    11,208

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    Quote Originally Posted by deltawave View Post
    Or it could turn a non-displaced fracture into a projectile aimed directly at the spinal cord. TOO unpredictable. I'd rather NOT have extra force being applied at high velocity to my spine in the event of a fracture. I want the immobilization to be done by capable human hands who know what they're doing, not a random piece of equipment that only knows how to do one thing: push.

    That's not to say there isn't POTENTIAL for improving or making air vests a solid piece of safety equipment, but just like almost every other product marketed for horses, the sales force is light years ahead of the R&D department.
    What she said.
    When blood is the beverage of choice, the sharpest fangs feed first.



  5. #105
    Join Date
    May. 3, 2012
    Location
    Sacramento, CA
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    93

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    This is an interesting but somewhat disturbing discussion.

    I got my daughter a Charles Owen vest (not an air vest). She just jumps small jumps (maybe up to 2 feet) in the ring. My thinking was that this would potentially minimize injury if (1) she fell onto a jump rail (ouch!) or the horse stepped on her after she fell (double ouch).

    Do you feel that wearing a vest is sensible in this scenario??

    I would hate to think I am putting her at risk by trying to protect her. On the other hand, I've seen horses nearly step on fallen kids, so I do view that as a real risk.



  6. #106
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    May. 6, 2007
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    Napanee ON
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    I would say a traditional Charles Owen would be helpful, not dangerous.



  7. #107
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    Feb. 3, 2000
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    Nokesville, VA
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    Do you feel that wearing a vest is sensible in this scenario??
    Yes, it would be sensible.

    It is the AIR vests that may do more harm than good, and are missing test results.

    The "regular" vests HAVE been tested, and I have never heard anyone suggest they could do harm.
    Janet

    chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).



  8. #108
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    May. 6, 2007
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    Napanee ON
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    Well, I'm willing to play crash test dummy if Point Two or an outside party would like to start doing some research



  9. #109
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    Jan. 2, 2000
    Location
    Michigan
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    1,118

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    Proud Member of the Courageous Weenie Eventers Clique



  10. #110
    Join Date
    Aug. 11, 2000
    Location
    Chantilly,va.
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    10,882

    Question Brian or Sally OC?

    I believe it was Sally OC who, made that comment, possibly quoted by Brian?
    breeder of Mercury!

    remember to enjoy the moment, and take a moment to enjoy and give God the glory for these wonderful horses in our lives.BECAUSE: LIFE is What Happens While Making Other Plans



  11. #111
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    Nov. 13, 2008
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    At the office
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    Quote Originally Posted by CarrieK View Post
    Fear is the rocket sauce.
    Jack Black



  12. #112
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    Apr. 2, 2009
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    North Carolina
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    Quote Originally Posted by CarrieK View Post



  13. #113
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    Jan. 6, 2008
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    Area II, the Blue Ridge Mountains
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    Have any of you fallen off with an air vest on? I have and the impact was amazingly less jarring that it would have been otherwise. I fell flat on my back and the collar of the vest kept my head from banging on the ground. I've got all the photos of the fall, and one can watch the step-by-step process by which the vest inflated and kept me from slapping my head on the ground.

    I am a scientist by training and yes, we need more empirical data to support the vests. However, there are data from Hit Air with motorcyles that support the use. Perhaps a naysayer will argue that our accidents are somehow different from those on motorcyles. Maybe so. But in this case, I am going to rely on my one experience where I fell and the cushioning was amazing. I actually laughed when I got up... felt like I was landing on a cloud.

    <ducking>



  14. #114
    Join Date
    Jul. 10, 2001
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    6,708

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    Don't duck.

    But I do believe you are confusing impacts and forces. Just because you may not feel anything, does mean you have no damage or injury. A colleague of mine was in 7 IED explosive events (his vehicle was specifically targeted every time). He had full SAPI (up to 7.62mm) armor on and he never had any penetrating injury. However, his back is messed up pretty good. The research backs this up very well over the past 10 years. By the way, SAPI has "air suspension" built into it under the kevlar cover and above the ceramic plate.

    What does this have to do with air vests? The point is that when the back becomes restricted in its flexion such as when one wears body armor or an inflated airvest, the forces are transmitted internally through the spine and internal organs, e.g. an explosion can liquify internal organs and leave the clothing and armor intact. SO it has as much to do with HOW you hit the ground. Remember TESTS are ONLY done as if you are laying down in bed. So the vest is designed to work with only front to back or back to front impacts.

    As for motorcycles, have you noticed that at the top levels, the "air vests" are very thin and contained INSIDE the leathers (and as far as I can tell, beneath the breast plate etc.)? And as such allow the body to flex and bend even in a "high side" spill. But, a MAJORITY of motorcycle accidents are "low side"and the rider SLIDES on the ground with minimal vertical impact as one gets when falling off a horse. Our accidents are SIGNIFICANTLY different than falling off a motorcycle. Look at the statistics. The predominant injury in MotoGP is hand, foot, and wrist injuries. Yes, in horses, extremity injuries are prevalent but so are head and back, much more so than motorcycles. Oh, and the #1 prevention of motorcycle accidents at the top level? TRAINING and EXPERIENCE.

    I would say, our accidents are closer to an explosive event where the victim is thrown (tertiary injury) through the air to impact on some rigid structure or ground.



  15. #115
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    Feb. 3, 2000
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    Nokesville, VA
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAyers View Post
    ...
    So the vest is designed to work with only front to back or back to front impacts.
    Which is the kind of fall Ann experienced.


    As for motorcycles, have you noticed that at the top levels, the "air vests" are very thin and contained INSIDE the leathers (and as far as I can tell, beneath the breast plate etc.)?
    Reed, do you know ANY motorcycle roadracers that use a tether-triggered air device? I have been pretty involved in the motorcycle roadracing community most of my life, and have never seen one. I have not seen a tether in any pictures either.

    Yes- back protectors.
    Yes - chest protectors.
    But nothing inflatable by tether disconnect.


    But, a MAJORITY of motorcycle accidents are "low side"and the rider SLIDES on the ground with minimal vertical impact as one gets when falling off a horse.
    I can concur with that. A lowside at 80 mph did nothing but scuff up my leathers.

    Being T-boned into the tires separated my shouder. EXACTLY the same injury I got when I fell off a horse who stopped after his front end was halfway over the jump.

    I also broke a wrist when I lost the front wheel breaking for turn one.

    But the injuries motorcycle roadracers worry about are ones to the head and spine.




    Yes, in horses, extremity injuries are prevalent but so are head and back, much more so than motorcycles.
    Is that "motorcycles in general"? or motorcycle roadracing in specific? My empirical/anecdotal experience is that head injuries (and broken helmets) are just as common in roadracing as in Eventing.


    I would say, our accidents are closer to an explosive event where the victim is thrown (tertiary injury) through the air to impact on some rigid structure or ground.
    "Thrown through the air to impact some rigid structrue or the ground" is a pretty good description of a motorcycle roadracing high-side.
    Janet

    chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).



  16. #116
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    Feb. 22, 2000
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    Quote Originally Posted by ahbaumgardner View Post
    Perhaps a naysayer will argue that our accidents are somehow different from those on motorcyles. Maybe so.
    I'm not a scientist. I'm an EMT.

    But I think both of us should be familiar with this equation:

    k = ½ mv²

    Speed -- as in v for velocity -- is almost always a significant factor in motorcycle accidents. The speed alone usually qualifies the patient for trauma center criteria. This is not the case in eventing accidents, as you're not going over 30 mph. 570 mpm is less than 22 mph.



  17. #117
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    Jan. 16, 2002
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    West Coast of Michigan
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    Even anecdotes from a scientist are still . . . anecdotes. Because the body is simply a body, regardless of what the brain is used for.

    Again, I don't mind a tumble and flopping on the ground once in a great while. But I'm waiting for more evidence before I strap on an airvest because of the potential they have of deploying inappropriately, or possibly making a bad situation worse.
    Click here before you buy.



  18. #118
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    Apr. 2, 2009
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    North Carolina
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    Quote Originally Posted by JER View Post

    k = ½ mv²
    OMG, you just gave me warm fuzzy flashbacks to all my awesome physics classes and all those chalkboard drawings. Thank you for that...



  19. #119
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    Apr. 15, 2008
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    Orlean, Va
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    Ok, I didn't take physics class. Please, would one of you who did, explain what the ratio means? (For a very visual art history/Latin American studies major?)
    Intermediate Riding Skills



  20. #120
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    Jan. 16, 2002
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    West Coast of Michigan
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    Yecch, I struggled to get C's in physics.
    Click here before you buy.



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