The Chronicle of the Horse
MagazineNewsHorse SportsHorse CareCOTH StoreVoicesThe Chronicle UntackedDirectoriesMarketplaceDates & Results
 
Page 2 of 6 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 116
  1. #21
    Join Date
    Apr. 9, 2012
    Location
    NYC=center of the universe
    Posts
    1,918

    Default

    It's one thing to take some artistic shots (of anybody), some candids of people you know, and action shots of friends. And another to take shots of tons of people you don't know very well and then put those on FB. The first is a hobby, and the second is directly impinging on the service that the photog has paid a fee to provide.

    It's a fine line, perhaps, but I do think there is an ethical line there. I think the line is crossed when you provide photos to people who really are not in your close circle. The line is obviously crossed when you charge ANY $ amount for pictures. But it's also crossed when you start providing photos to a larger group as a courtesy. This becomes a service you provide in direct competition with the official photographer.
    Born under a rock and owned by beasts!



  2. #22
    Join Date
    Jun. 20, 2009
    Location
    Hunterdon County NJ
    Posts
    2,969

    Default

    Bull hockey. I know plenty of farm owners who have HUGE investments in their businesses, properties, and horses. But if someone next door wants to give away free riding lessons to their daughters friends, too bad for the farm owner.

    Somehow show photographers want special treatment. Lots of people have high quality cameras these days. This nonsense that no one else can take a picture is BS. Plenty of industries have monstrous investments in their businesses, only to be swept aside by the next best thing.

    Suck it up cupcakes. That's the free market system. Harassing anyone walking around the show grounds with a camera is just ridiculous. And, um, pathetic.



  3. #23
    Join Date
    Sep. 4, 2012
    Location
    Del Mar, CA
    Posts
    57

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ako View Post
    It's one thing to take some artistic shots (of anybody), some candids of people you know, and action shots of friends. And another to take shots of tons of people you don't know very well and then put those on FB. The first is a hobby, and the second is directly impinging on the service that the photog has paid a fee to provide.

    It's a fine line, perhaps, but I do think there is an ethical line there. I think the line is crossed when you provide photos to people who really are not in your close circle. The line is obviously crossed when you charge ANY $ amount for pictures. But it's also crossed when you start providing photos to a larger group as a courtesy. This becomes a service you provide in direct competition with the official photographer.
    I believe this is what she was most upset about, and yes I can see where that may be crossing a line. Without snapping back with a "well / But I". THIS specific statement is what brought me to the horse show office to speak to the show manager. This whole thing is absolutely ridiculous IMO, leave the person alone if they want to take photos and put them on Facebook. It becomes a problem and perhaps "illegal" when the person is handing out business cards, ADVERTISING ON FACEBOOK, and selling photos in general. Going in to this I was very aware if what was not allowed to be done. According to the show office which I spoke to today, the manager - you are not allowed to advertise or sell. Nothing else is "against the rules" You can put the photos up where you'd like, knowing full well that I will only do this with the riders consent as it's a bit odd uploading photos of someones 5 year old child.

    Quote Originally Posted by MHM View Post
    And to behave in a professional manner.

    The professional photographer who did a horse show two weeks ago still has not replied to my email about buying pictures from the show. And a different photographer did the same thing last year. If someone is trying to spend money on your products, don't make it hard for them!
    I agree with this, there were so many points I intended to make in the conversation but it wasn't worth arguing, I wanted to be respectful and not come off as a "well actually you should do this and that" kind of person. I just nodded my head stated that I will not sell or advertise but I would still be taking photos as a hobby.


    Quote Originally Posted by PNWjumper View Post
    I think there is a fine line here. And I think you have to realize that by taking photos and posting them on FB you ARE taking business away from the photographer whether it's intentional or not. The end result is the photographer finds it harder to make a living (something every pro photog I know is already complaining about because of the great hobby cams hobbyists can get now) and eventually gives it up altogether. Then you're left with only getting pictures of yourself if someone you know happens to be there.

    I have a friend who's a photo hobbyist. He recently started selling his photos on FB. I am very offended by this because he is absolutely undercutting the show photographer and the more he advebuyingrtises his photos the "trickier" he's being since he's not paying the same fees as the show photographer. I do make a point of always a photo from the show photographers that I know even if it's not the *best* photo ever, just because I want to support the business as much as I can.

    So was the photographer out of line? I don't think so because you're on a slippery slope as a hobby photographer and I'm sure that photographer has seen plenty of others who start out taking pics of the barn, and then progress to pics of everyone who shows around the same time as barnmates, and then is suddenly advertising on FB that they'll sell pics for $5 or whatever. I think her point is a valid one whether your intentions were good or bad.
    I don't think she was out of line at all, I do think she was out of line when she told me "well now i'm getting pissed off" and "why cant you just go train? Why do you have to take pictures". But I understand where she is coming from every other point. I avoided even mentioning it but i'll be a little brutally honest. When you take a good photo, good lighting, a good angle (which this photographers photos rather are) the picture sells. I have never, and ever plan on selling my pictures, let alone advertising them. I actually have had quite a few riders, trainers and parents ask me to shoot for them at the shows, i've told each of them that if i'm around i'd love to take some pictures but I rarely am "around" at the time seeing as I do work. I have also told people that I cannot send "full size" images, they can download them from Facebook but I will not send them. I have also had people ask me if they can use the photos in an advertisement. Each time I have said I would rather not BECAUSE the hired photographer at the show should be the one whose photos are being used. This brings us right back to the statement that so many people have made about them not liking the photos taken of them by this professional photographer. It's not my problem or fault. I don't like arguing and I certainly don't like stepping on peoples toes. My "hobby" where I take about 20 photos at one show should in absolutely no way, and is in no way taking business from this photographer. I asked her specifically "have your sales dropped since I started taking pictures" ... she avoided this quickly. In all honesty the discussion is so petty. I just wanted some feedback and thank you all for giving me your feedback, it helps!


    On top of all this, my photos being my hobby, they are not great, I am not a professional and I don't know a thing or two about settings on a camera. It shocks me that people even like my pictures!

    This conversation should have been done in a professional manner, the photographer in my opinion should have pulled me aside to have this conversation. Not while I am standing with some of my friends who are fellow trainers and their clients, the clients especially ... The statements she made about being "pissed off" and "just do your job" were very avoidable and unprofessional on her part. This alone will effect her business and sales rather than me as a hobby shooting here and there. The people who were around me were shocked and made it a point to say some rather unkind things as well as "we won't be buying photos now from them" ...


    I find that if you have a company, regardless what industry it is in, if you do your job well, it will reflect in your sales, or your income, whatever it may be. When someone e-mails you about orders, or questions on photos, if you respond at least semi quickly, the buyer will be more incited to buy. It should not take months for an 8x10 photo that costs $45.00 to arrive at your doorstep. I will not name this company as it is not my place AND two of the photographers who work there are actually very very kind people who I enjoy speaking with, maybe not right now but they do mean well. If they are upset with my photography, hire me ... No i'm joking.

    Sorry for the rant, I was just pretty upset by this.

    Thanks everyone for the feedback. You are more than welcome to look at the Facebook, I don't find it that fantastic at all, a 12 year old could do it.



  4. #24
    Join Date
    Sep. 4, 2012
    Location
    Del Mar, CA
    Posts
    57

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Isabeau Z Solace View Post
    Bull hockey. I know plenty of farm owners who have HUGE investments in their businesses, properties, and horses. But if someone next door wants to give away free riding lessons to their daughters friends, too bad for the farm owner.

    Somehow show photographers want special treatment. Lots of people have high quality cameras these days. This nonsense that no one else can take a picture is BS. Plenty of industries have monstrous investments in their businesses, only to be swept aside by the next best thing.

    Suck it up cupcakes. That's the free market system. Harassing anyone walking around the show grounds with a camera is just ridiculous. And, um, pathetic.
    Thank you, this is kind of how I saw it, lol maybe with a little emphasis ha ha, but loving how you put it. She photographer actually layer it out for me similarly. Her comparison was that it was like another trainer at my facility riding peoples horses for free, coming to my clients saying "well i'll ride your horses for you for free since your trainer charges you". First of all this is uncommon, unprofessional, the rider would most likely be asked to leave the facility or the client who prefers to think and act for themselves might be excused as well.



  5. #25
    Join Date
    Nov. 7, 2008
    Location
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Posts
    1,952

    Default

    I'd be pretty darn cranky if one of my friends (most of whom are into photography as a hobby and have some pretty nice equipment) got hassled at a show they went to with me because they were using it as an opportunity to practice photography with a different set of challenges than usual. Most of them would probably be taking photos of basically random people because honestly they're not really horsey and would be thinking entirely in terms of 'is that a good image?' and not about the identity of the subject, because the identity of the subject is entirely not the point for them in that scenario.

    Now, I'd be cranky with my friends if they were doing that and then going around handing out business cards saying 'hey, cheap photos!' or whatever, because that's just rude. (Compete fairly, don't compete by pretending like you're not in the business.)

    But a show photographer who gave one of my friends (or me - I have some pretty nice kit also) a hard time would probably be someone who went on my 'not buying from you' list.

    This is not even an issue I would've thought of when taking my own camera to a show/event - which I probably would do if I wasn't competing, because it is an interesting chance to take photos in a different environment. The only attention I usually pay to 'official' type photographers is to make sure that I'm not setting myself up right where they want to be in a 'good' spot.



  6. #26
    Join Date
    Mar. 5, 2007
    Posts
    1,704

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ako View Post
    It's one thing to take some artistic shots (of anybody), some candids of people you know, and action shots of friends. And another to take shots of tons of people you don't know very well and then put those on FB. The first is a hobby, and the second is directly impinging on the service that the photog has paid a fee to provide.

    It's a fine line, perhaps, but I do think there is an ethical line there. I think the line is crossed when you provide photos to people who really are not in your close circle. The line is obviously crossed when you charge ANY $ amount for pictures. But it's also crossed when you start providing photos to a larger group as a courtesy. This becomes a service you provide in direct competition with the official photographer.
    It's not impinging on the show photogs 'rights'.
    All it means is that the 'amateur' photographer has a better business model than many of the 'pros'.
    Today, people want a shot to load on FB, not so much a 12 x 12 or larger print.
    The 'FB Model' can be a win for the photographer and the client. Camera equipment gets better every day and the amateurs sometimes take as good if not better shots. No need for a website, use FB for your shots and sell a cost efficient product. No overhead other than the camera and most amateurs already own one.
    But many pros don't realize the world changed. They revise their model by requiring an up front payment before they will even take pics of your horse. Who wants to pay out $100 or more for something you haven't even seen and may be inferior?
    Also customer service from many of the pros sucks. I paid for some photos in June. The photographer was quick to cash the check but no pics. He is a well known pro but can't explain why I haven't gotten the shots.
    And some shows charge the pros a ridiculous amount to be the show photographer so they need to raise prices to cover that expense. That contributes to the trend towards the amateur photographer.
    No ethical issue here. It's simply business.



  7. #27
    Join Date
    Aug. 14, 2004
    Posts
    7,538

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Isabeau Z Solace View Post
    Bull hockey. I know plenty of farm owners who have HUGE investments in their businesses, properties, and horses. But if someone next door wants to give away free riding lessons to their daughters friends, too bad for the farm owner.

    Somehow show photographers want special treatment. Lots of people have high quality cameras these days. This nonsense that no one else can take a picture is BS. Plenty of industries have monstrous investments in their businesses, only to be swept aside by the next best thing.

    Suck it up cupcakes. That's the free market system. Harassing anyone walking around the show grounds with a camera is just ridiculous. And, um, pathetic.
    thank you. i was trying to figure out how to nicely say that a show is a PUBLIC event - that means that anyone can take pics of whatever they want...... even >gasp< of horses that dont belong to them and put them on FB etc.

    REAL pros dont worry about such things.... they dont need too... they are pros. The folks that have to worry about people taking pics are the cracker jack box pros who have no business calling themselves such.....

    seriously.



  8. #28
    Join Date
    Feb. 26, 1999
    Location
    Wherever the circuit takes me this week
    Posts
    1,010

    Default

    A friend of mine, who is an amazing photographer, came to visit me at WEF a couple of years ago. She was taking tons of photos of horses in the ring, and would also take a photo of the scoreboard so she knew who they were. She had no intention of selling the photos. She enters lots of photo contests (and wins quite a bit), and was taking photos for this purpose. Of course, she has professional quality equipment (better than some horse show photographers). One of the photographers at the show started bothering her about her not being the "official" photographer and how she couldn't be taking all those photos, etc. She finally went to the show office and explained the situation to them and they just gave her a press pass so the "official" photographers would leave her alone.
    Friends don't let friends ride junk!



  9. #29

    Default

    If other photographers on show grounds are not selling, no OP should have a problem with people shooting for fun. As an OP, it's not worth my time to go around and ask people why they are taking photos. It is a bit annoying if a photographer intentionally stands in front of me while I'm shooting, but that is rare. Most people with cameras on show grounds are polite.

    The only consideration is liability. OPs do have to carry a boat load of insurance. As long as people stay within a reasonable distance from the competitors, are not giving out business cards, or selling on line, there is no issue.



  10. #30
    Join Date
    Sep. 4, 2012
    Location
    Del Mar, CA
    Posts
    57

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DressageOP View Post
    If other photographers on show grounds are not selling, no OP should have a problem with people shooting for fun. As an OP, it's not worth my time to go around and ask people why they are taking photos. It is a bit annoying if a photographer intentionally stands in front of me while I'm shooting, but that is rare. Most people with cameras on show grounds are polite.

    The only consideration is liability. OPs do have to carry a boat load of insurance. As long as people stay within a reasonable distance from the competitors, are not giving out business cards, or selling on line, there is no issue.
    I agree, I never stand in front of them. I typically find a seat before one of my friends enters the arena and stay there. Usually it's at an angle where there are 3 oxars facing me at some point of view. Typically the OP is standing on the side of one of those oars or aiming for the first, middle, and end of a combo ... Odd but I won't critique. It's just for fun! The conversation kind of ruined it for me.



  11. #31
    Join Date
    Jul. 13, 2006
    Posts
    459

    Default

    Off on a tangent - when I am shooting for "practice", I shoot training sessions and/or lessons. I have no reason for shooting at a show where another is the official photographer.

    If I am at a show for other reasons (say, my own horse is competing) I give the official photog the courtesy of introducing myself (usually a few days before the show), and explaining my intentions. Assuming they are ok with that, I'll only shoot when my own horse is competing in the show arena. If someone asks me about photos, I direct them to the official shooter. They are working hard.

    I've even been known to buy a photo or two from a show photographer for a friend who was showing (the selection to be made by my friend).



  12. #32
    Join Date
    Jul. 13, 2006
    Posts
    459

    Default

    Something else to keep in mind; if someone other than the official event photographer shoots, then posts images on FB or elsewhere, they could potentially be opening themselves up to liability to the people in the photos.

    And if tack sellers and such have to pay a vendor's fee to sell, shouldn't everyone?



  13. #33
    Join Date
    Sep. 17, 2012
    Posts
    2

    Default

    I know of someone who takes photos of every single horse in the ring and posts literally hundreds on Shutterfly for free. OPs have politely explained why this is a problem but she continues. Sure, it's a 'hobby' but you'd better believe it impacts the OPs sales.

    To see the issues from a professional photographer's point of view, it might be worth reading this Chronicle article from last year:
    http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/...-facing-crisis

    That said, there is never an excuse for rude behavior. To those who have complaints about various professional photographers, raise your issues with show management. If enough people are unhappy, they should be willing to try and find someone else.



  14. #34
    Join Date
    Sep. 4, 2012
    Location
    Del Mar, CA
    Posts
    57

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by PogieTB View Post
    I know of someone who takes photos of every single horse in the ring and posts literally hundreds on Shutterfly for free. OPs have politely explained why this is a problem but she continues. Sure, it's a 'hobby' but you'd better believe it impacts the OPs sales.

    To see the issues from a professional photographer's point of view, it might be worth reading this Chronicle article from last year:
    http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/...-facing-crisis

    That said, there is never an excuse for rude behavior. To those who have complaints about various professional photographers, raise your issues with show management. If enough people are unhappy, they should be willing to try and find someone else.
    I agree with this and understand. Had I not spoke to the show office / management ahead of time and asked for the specific rules I would have stopped. But as they said as long as you are not in the arena, selling or publicly advertising "buy my photos!" you are permitted to shoot. There are liabilities such as taking the risk of a horse spooking due to your shooting etc, i've learned these things (not the hard way) just learned in general.



  15. #35
    Join Date
    Sep. 4, 2012
    Location
    Del Mar, CA
    Posts
    57

    Default

    Heres my point, I understand where this photographer was coming from and I respect that completely, it is not only her hobby but her living. But be professional about it, don't come into a conversation for the kill. Don't suggest that I stick to my job and not take pictures. If their sales are not hurting because if my shooting about 20 photos or so a show, don't worry about it. If anything and if these photo sales are hurting, ask why, get feedback from potential buyers. EVERYONE that has spoke about this company has always said they are too expensive, nothing about my photos being preferable or anything close to this. People RARELY even use my photos! I don't see any being used anywhere, just a couple likes here and there on Facebook. My photos aren't quality! Send photos faster, don't charge an arm and a leg, take pictures that you can actually see the horse, that the horses leg isn't dangling, don't upload photos of riders of all ages even professionals flying through the air right into a fence - this is just common courtesy if we're going to bring courtesy up as it was in the convo.

    Seeing that I spoke to the show office specifically because I was worried I was breaking rules, it has been confirmed that I wasnt. Now the only thing I can see from here is the OP coming up with a proposal to the office, or some sort of boycott taking photos at the show. This would just be childish though, I guess based on the conversation it really wouldn't surprise me. It's a shame really. I had always encouraged friends and clients to buy their photos there. Can't really say i'll be doing this anymore.

    NOW had the OP told me that their sales were being effected, riders and trainers were complaining, and that I was truly making their job difficult. I would take this to heart and find another way for me to take photos that was not intruding or making their income impossible. But their sales are just fine, or just as fine as before for those who can even afford their pictures. The photography business is on it's way out to be honest, this is why you see so many people with high end cameras these days, because they are sick of paying the price of two show classes for a small photo.

    Thanks for the feedback once again, I need to head out of this topic before I get upset and start saying things I would regret You're all great!



  16. #36
    Join Date
    Nov. 7, 2008
    Location
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Posts
    1,952

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by tma View Post
    Off on a tangent - when I am shooting for "practice", I shoot training sessions and/or lessons. I have no reason for shooting at a show where another is the official photographer.
    For most of my photography friends, the chances are they'd be at the show purely to help me out and keep me company, so once stuff got too 'horsey' (down to grooming and tacking up rather than running to get food or other stuff that you don't need to know about horses to help out with, like unloading equipment from a trailer) the photography would be something to make the whole thing more interesting for them while they were passing the time until I might need help again. (Loading stuff back up or what have you.)

    Likewise, my dad has been into photography as a hobby for years and has a decent DSLR. If he goes to a show and is waiting for my turn, why shouldn't he be able to practice with his camera?



  17. #37

    Default

    Every person with a camera on show grounds who gives away photos potentially hurts business for the OP. That is a fact. But I think we all agree there is nothing that can be done about it.

    It is a level playing field? No. The OP has enormous expense and responsibility that those who are playing do not have. It is what it is and there is no reason to fight over territory.

    Show photography is a dying profession because of all of the cameras on show grounds. An OP can be angry or move on to something that actually pays the bills.

    If competitors and show management decide they truly want an OP, then they have to close the venue to all cameras except the OP. That's not going to happen.



  18. #38
    Join Date
    Nov. 7, 2008
    Location
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Posts
    1,952

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DressageOP View Post
    Every person with a camera on show grounds who gives away photos potentially hurts business for the OP. That is a fact. But I think we all agree there is nothing that can be done about it.

    It is a level playing field? No. The OP has enormous expense and responsibility that those who are playing do not have. It is what it is and there is no reason to fight over territory.
    Plus, fighting over territory puts people off wanting to interact with you, which makes sales even less likely. I mean, I know the kind of photos my friends and my dad would be likely to take - I'd get some very interesting shot of a jump standard or an excellent candid of me/a friend/whatever but the chances of getting a really good 'action' shot like I'd expect to get from a show photographer are pretty low. (And I wouldn't ask them to specifically try for that shot, if there was a show photographer.) So if you don't run off my friends/family with the camera, I'm way more likely to feel like giving you enough money for a nice photo of me plus horse.

    I do think there's a point about the customer service side in general, too - for my college graduation photos I didn't really have a choice about buying from the official photographers or not because of the way it was set up, but if there had been someone else able to offer me something similar I would have been VERY tempted because the communication and customer service was HORRIBLE. You don't have to have all the fancy bells and whistles on your website, but maintain lines of communication, answer questions, give realistic time frames for when the photo(s) will be delivered. I respect that answering emails and so on can take up a chunk of the day, but that's part of the business. You either make time for it or figure out how to afford a part time assistant who can triage your email/messages for you to reduce the load on you. Something.



  19. #39
    Join Date
    Sep. 22, 2012
    Posts
    89

    Default

    I am a photographer, but I cannot stop little Susie's mother from purchasing a DSLR she knows nothing about, and snapping photo's all day then loading them to FB and tagging Susie's friends. For a hired photographer to get upset over another photographer taking photo's - even without intention to re sell them - is silly considering how many people's family and friends take photo's during the show.

    I have offered my photography to shows in the past then found out they had already hired a photographer and it was requested I did not sell my photo's, though I was more than welcome to come and take some for my own personal use (portfolio, fun, whatever) or photo's of my students.



  20. #40
    Join Date
    Mar. 5, 2007
    Posts
    1,704

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by tma View Post
    Something else to keep in mind; if someone other than the official event photographer shoots, then posts images on FB or elsewhere, they could potentially be opening themselves up to liability to the people in the photos.

    And if tack sellers and such have to pay a vendor's fee to sell, shouldn't everyone?
    When you sign an entry blank at a USEF show you give away your rights to privacy. One of the terms of entry is that you understand that photos of you or your horses can be used to publicize the show. Shows are public events. You have no expectation of privacy.

    The fees that tack sellers and photographers pay is for renting a booth to sell their merchandise. True, it is sometimes for an 'exclusive' right to shoot as the Official show Photographer and that usually means you get advertising space in the prize list and photos credited to you on the show website. But that's about ll it's worth. More a money making deal for show management.
    The amateur photographer is not using a booth to sell product, they use the internet instead.



Similar Threads

  1. Spin off: The death of the "B" and "C" shows.
    By nlk in forum Hunter/Jumper
    Replies: 47
    Last Post: Sep. 18, 2013, 06:36 PM
  2. Replies: 17
    Last Post: Aug. 10, 2011, 08:25 AM
  3. Replies: 4
    Last Post: Nov. 1, 2009, 07:50 PM
  4. schooling shows vs. "real" shows ... much difference??
    By NewbieEventer in forum Eventing
    Replies: 19
    Last Post: Mar. 9, 2009, 12:11 AM
  5. Replies: 59
    Last Post: Oct. 17, 2008, 06:52 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
randomness