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  1. #1
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    Feb. 10, 2004
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    Question New USEF/USHJA Rule for sitting/combining Children's & Adult Hunters

    As of 12/1/12 Children's Hunters CANNOT be divided into sections unless there are 6 in each section. That means 8 horses & 3 sm/med ponies & 1 large pony would all have to be one division.
    Same goes for Adult Amateur Hunters, cannot split unless 6 in each section.
    Any thoughts?



  2. #2
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    Should be splitting/combining!



  3. #3
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    Oh geese. Well that's incredibly unfair. You can't really compare ponies doing 2'3" and 2'6" to horses doing 3' and 3'3". I feel bad for the ponies that can't hold their own in the regular division having to compete against horses, especially in the under saddle. Honestly considering the ideals for the way a pony looks under saddle (nose poked out toes flicking) and horse under saddle (either nose out daisy cutter or with some judges, head lower and on the bit and flat kneed movement) is ridiculous to judge together. Plus then how will they do points and indoor finals? Will there be no WIHS Children's finals? What does this accomplish? Nothing, just making the playing field uneven and ridiculous.



  4. #4
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    USEF/USHJA claim this change is to make for stronger competition.



  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by 111 View Post
    USEF/USHJA claim this change is to make for stronger competition.
    Why? If there are 28 kids in the Children's hunters, 5 in the children's ponies, why would they combine and make an already big class 33 riders are horses? Also what will they do about the age groups? Now more split between older/younger Children's? This truly will kill a lot of kids chances at finals and chances to win. Despite what a lot of people want others to think, people actually would like to win their classes sometimes. Additionally many of the Children's hunter riders are INCREDIBLY more experienced than children's pony riders. A pony rider may have been riding 3 years on push button school ponies, where as a children's hunter may have been riding his or her whole life and have only made it up to the children's on account of a green horse/finances etc. Is it really fair to make occasionally scruffy ponies that weren't capable of the division compete against horses that sometimes have the jumping caliber of a junior hunter just at a lower height? In my mind, the division's level of competition isn't remotely equal.



  6. #6
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    I think the powers that be have decided with only 3 required to fill a split section things were getting watered down. I agree with you, everyone has to get a taste of winning now & then.
    Between this & the new point system that was passed last year; it's almost impossible for a regular person to qualify for any of the finals!



  7. #7
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    Can someone please post the exact text of the new rule please? I can understand not splitting Childrens Hunter horses into sections if there are fewer than six, but do not believe the intent is to combine Children's Hunter horses with Childrens Ponies.
    It's 2014. Do you know where your old horse is?



  8. #8
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    I feel like it should be if there are less than six in all division, not if there are less than six in any one division. Then 3 could be the filling for the other division if the other one has more than 6. So if Children's had 6, and C Ponies had 3, both would fill, and be held separately. But if Children's had 5 and C Ponies had 5, then they could combine. This would be much more fair, especially to those that paid good money to come to a show where they'd win, only to find that an ex pony finals winner or ex WIHS winner would be combined in their class.



  9. #9
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    http://www.ushja.org/content/news/pr.aspx?id=906

    It does not say anything specific about the ponies & the horses.
    Where it is very specific about splitting the adults.



  10. #10
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    I believe, having read the rule, this refers simply to younger/older children's hunter horse, not the ponies. Which means if there are 6 youngers and 3 olders, they'll be combined. This, unlike combining the ponies and horses, seems more fair, though not entirely as some smaller shows that only have 5 entries in each will be forced to combine many of their classes. The point of these smaller shows are for easy points and to have fun especially if you don't normally win on the larger circuit. This is going to put many people that only occasionally get to be on top, back on the bottom again.



  11. #11
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    That's how I read the rule too. The intent is to combine what would have been younger and older Children's Hunters, not to combiine horses with ponies where different fence heights are involved.

    Same intent for the Adult Ammys, however, the age range for adults is 19 to infinity, so fewer adults will get a lucky split if there are not a lot of people in the division. Further, the oldest adults like me (I'm 57) will more often have to show in an unsplit division IF they decide to keep showing at rated shows. Looks like I won't have the good fortune of showing in an over-50 class with only five people.

    This might, with some planning and advertising, be a way to get the 3' Adults back to unrated shows. So many local shows in my area don't offer 3'. I don't know if there's any point in my renewing my USEF and USHJA memberships and paying rated show fees to compete against much more capable and athletic younger people. My show dollars may go elsewhere.

    It will be interesting to see what other adults think as this rule goes into effect.
    It's 2014. Do you know where your old horse is?



  12. #12
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    All for it, I'm sick of seeing horses proclaimed hands-down winners that never even show in a class that can fill out a ribbon string.

    I doubt there is any talk of combining the Childrens Ponies into the Childrens Hunter classes. Those aren't even in the same hemisphere of riding ability.
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  13. #13
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    I read the USEF/USHJA rule, it does NOT say Childrens will be combined with the Adult Division...it says sections of the division-like age splits-must be combined if there are less then 6 in that split. They CAN be combined as a Ch/Ad if there are too few overall entries-and it always could be, no change there. The new rule is to eliminate to eliminate a 12 and under with 3, a 14/15 with 4 and a 16+ with 3.

    I have never personally seen a Pony in the Childrens or combined Ch/Ad Hunters,at the USEF rated levels this refers to anyway. Jumpers, yeah. Not Hunters. There may be a handful and you do see a handful at smaller shows. Why would you want to compete against horses when there is a Pony division anyway?

    And I HATE watering down the classes so there are ribbons for everybody and everybody is a winner at anything above crossrails. You are jumpin around at 3', you need to expect to compete and actually win the ribbon.
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by findeight View Post
    I read the USEF/USHJA rule, it does NOT say Childrens will be combined with the Adult Division...it says sections of the division-like age splits-must be combined if there are less then 6 in that split. They CAN be combined as a Ch/Ad if there are too few overall entries-and it always could be, no change there. The new rule is to eliminate to eliminate a 12 and under with 3, a 14/15 with 4 and a 16+ with 3.

    .
    The divisions being discussed are ZONE divisions. And as such, each Zone can set their own rules.
    According to USEF this means that Zone specs prevail if the specs mention combinlng.
    Last edited by PINE TREE FARM SC; Oct. 12, 2012 at 07:17 PM.
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  15. #15
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    Pony Hunters and Childern hunters are completely seperate divisions. Pony hunters are not affected by this rule change.

    What they rule changes does is say that childerns hunters cannot be split into age groups unless there are more than 6 in each split. And it does the same for adult hunters. Personally I think this a good rule change and makes sense.



  16. #16
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    I show in the younger adults and I really like this idea. I always feel as if it is a waste of my money when I go to a show and there are only 4 or 5 adults in my age group. I am competitive and I like to compete against more people in my class. It is a great feeling to win a class with 20 horses competing than to win a class out of 4 horses competing.



  17. #17
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    "Amateur Owner Hunter 3’3” and 3’6” – must offer at least 2 divided sections split 18-35 and 35 and over. At AA rated competition they may be divided with a floating split. If there are fewer than six entries in either divided section they must be combined. Amateur Owner Sections (sections offered divided by age) may not be split further with fewer than 30 entries."

    What is a 'floating split'?

    I'm a bit confused about the combining of entries. Tell me how these entries would be combined...

    7 younger low A/O's
    3 older low A/O's
    7 younger high A/O's
    3 older high A/O's

    Would it be 10 low AOs and 10 high AOs, or 7 young low, 7 young high and 6 older low/high?
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  18. #18
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    Checked With USHJA today & apparently now they have clarified the rule.
    This change ONLY applys IF your zone does not have specs on combining & splitting. They have sent out a revised email, since they had many people contact them regarding this rule.
    I talked to about 10 people today, all of whom did not read the rule the way USHJA meant it to be interpreted; myself included.



  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by 111 View Post
    Checked With USHJA today & apparently now they have clarified the rule.
    This change ONLY applys IF your zone does not have specs on combining & splitting. They have sent out a revised email, since they had many people contact them regarding this rule.
    .
    As I posted earlier that is exactly the case.
    Here's the rule:
    "Children’s Hunter – If Zone specifications do not address the combining and splitting of sections by the number of entries, then, if there are fewer than 6 entries in any divided section, the sections must be combined"
    Similar language for Adult Amateur Hunters.

    Oh, by the way this did not come from USHJA, they do not pass rules. The revision comes from USEF and was included in the USEF Competition Secretaries Newsletter.
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  20. #20
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    Sep. 23, 2010
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    Hate this change. Is it really so tough to hand out an extra set of ribbons? Half the shows around here have little to no prize money in the adults anyway.

    It seems they are making the show less and less friendly for the average amateur. I am less and less motivated to go show these days



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