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  1. #41
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    Apr. 25, 2005
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    Do you know why your horse foundered?


    My horse catastropically foundered at age 27 in late December, 2007 and spent from January 2008 to August, 2008 in an equine hospital. The vet and farrier specializes in founder and they work together. That is what you need first of all is a very competent vet and farrier. The ones you have right now are scaring me. I know you're searching for new ones. I would recommend the vet and farrier I use except we are in Tennessee. My boy is doing very well at age 32 and goes for monthly vet, farrier check ups with x-rays and shoeing. I hope for the very best for your horse.



  2. #42
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    Aug. 25, 2012
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rockabilly View Post
    Do you know why your horse foundered?


    My horse catastropically foundered at age 27 in late December, 2007 and spent from January 2008 to August, 2008 in an equine hospital. The vet and farrier specializes in founder and they work together. That is what you need first of all is a very competent vet and farrier. The ones you have right now are scaring me. I know you're searching for new ones. I would recommend the vet and farrier I use except we are in Tennessee. My boy is doing very well at age 32 and goes for monthly vet, farrier check ups with x-rays and shoeing. I hope for the very best for your horse.
    Unfortunately at the moment we don't have a definite cause as to why he foundered. If I had to take a guess he is insulin resistant and therefore have changed his diet. The new vet will be testing for this when he is out.

    Thankfully like I said he has seemed to stabilize so it has given me the time to really choose professionals that are the best in our area.

    I'm happy your horse is doing great that is so nice to hear!



  3. #43
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    Aug. 25, 2012
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    Ok, just a quick update! Had a new vet out today who was very thorough and spent a good hour and a half with us. We've gone ahead and pulled bloodwork to test for metabolic issues.

    He was also less sore in the toe area then he was previously and both agreed his toes are too long and his heel on the right side still too high.

    He has given me a name of a local farrier that he likes and I've left a message for him. However, what is the most popular way of dealing with this?

    Frequent trims and boots with supports, less frequent trims with the use of shoes, wood blocks?

    Thanks for the help everyone!



  4. #44
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    Apr. 25, 2005
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    Are you going to get new x-rays to see what's going on inside the foot and where his coffin bone is? What about venograms which will show you blood flow in the foot?

    If the farrier is an excellent farrier why don't you let him decide the best way to go for your horse since he should be an expert.

    I have 2 farriers I work with. The one who takes care of Billy's foundered feet and a regular farrier that comes to my barn. I like both of them and it has never been an issue with the farrier who comes to my barn that someone else does Billy's feet.

    I'm wondering how you define founder. Has his coffin bones actually rotated? or is this a case of Laminitis? If's it Laminitis this could be your warning about your horse actually foundering so you're being extremely smart to take this so seriously to protect your horse as much as possible.

    My horse and I are founder survivors and I want to say there is life after founder. It may not be the life you and your horse once knew, but it can be a good life.



  5. #45
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    Aug. 25, 2012
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rockabilly View Post
    Are you going to get new x-rays to see what's going on inside the foot and where his coffin bone is? What about venograms which will show you blood flow in the foot?

    If the farrier is an excellent farrier why don't you let him decide the best way to go for your horse since he should be an expert.

    I have 2 farriers I work with. The one who takes care of Billy's foundered feet and a regular farrier that comes to my barn. I like both of them and it has never been an issue with the farrier who comes to my barn that someone else does Billy's feet.

    I'm wondering how you define founder. Has his coffin bones actually rotated? or is this a case of Laminitis? If's it Laminitis this could be your warning about your horse actually foundering so you're being extremely smart to take this so seriously to protect your horse as much as possible.

    My horse and I are founder survivors and I want to say there is life after founder. It may not be the life you and your horse once knew, but it can be a good life.
    Hi thanks for the response. He has had recent x-rays as of not this past Monday but the Monday before. Pics and x-rays can be found at this site:

    http://s1297.beta.photobucket.com/us...ccrae/library/

    I'm all about going with the advice of an expert but do also want to be educated sine we are going to be working with someone new. As well as I just like to know what the latest research is.

    Unfortunately he has had some major rotation during this so we have a long road ahead of us but I'm committed to giving him the best care possible.

    He did also check acupuncture points and his body in general and didn't find any soreness which I was glad to hear as I thought I might need to get someone out to do body work on him.

    Anyways thanks for the concern and so glad your horse is doing well!



  6. #46
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    Sep. 7, 2011
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    Cool, CA
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    Make sure your vet either leaves a written shoeing prescription, or that the farrier talks to the vet directly. Since the vet is recommending the farrier, I assume they're on good speaking terms.

    Looking at your recent x-rays, there's too much toe. If the horse is past the laminitic phase, those dorsal walls should be whacked back. The right front, could use a lowering of the heels, if the vet concurs. You may never get to lower the heels as much as you 'should', depending on what makes the horse comfortable. I have a mustang on the books that goes lame when you attempt to get a 'proper' hoof/pastern angle on him, but seems quite happy running about on what are basically a set of stumpy high heels.
    Matthew Kiwala
    Foothill Farriers
    (530) 870-4390



  7. #47
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    Aug. 25, 2012
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    Quote Originally Posted by Foothill_Farrier View Post
    Make sure your vet either leaves a written shoeing prescription, or that the farrier talks to the vet directly. Since the vet is recommending the farrier, I assume they're on good speaking terms.

    Looking at your recent x-rays, there's too much toe. If the horse is past the laminitic phase, those dorsal walls should be whacked back. The right front, could use a lowering of the heels, if the vet concurs. You may never get to lower the heels as much as you 'should', depending on what makes the horse comfortable. I have a mustang on the books that goes lame when you attempt to get a 'proper' hoof/pastern angle on him, but seems quite happy running about on what are basically a set of stumpy high heels.
    Thanks for the reply Matthew! I agree we will definitely have to figure out what is right for him as far as heel height goes on that right front and will definitely make sure both farrier and vet discuss a course of action with each other.

    Any feelings as far as to trim more often and use boots and inserts, trim less often and use shoes and pads, or other methods?

    Thanks again!



  8. #48
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    Apr. 25, 2005
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    I agree about educating yourself as much as possible. I was going to say I forget how it is dealing with new vets and farriers, but I don't. I asked myself a million times in the beginning was I doing the right thing for Billy?
    Was this the right place for him? Turns out it was. I have learned over the past five years to trust Billy's vet and farrier because I know now they will do their very best for him and it's been proven they have. You don't have that confidence yet so they are going to have to prove themselves to you. I think one area of research that would be a huge benefit to you and your horse is his diet. There is a group on Yahoo called the Cushing's Group or something like that. Dr. Eleanor Kellon leads this group. I have joined it, but I have found it is too busy for me with way too many people so I have consulted with an Equine Nutrionist and researched things myself.



  9. #49
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    Aug. 25, 2012
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rockabilly View Post
    I agree about educating yourself as much as possible. I was going to say I forget how it is dealing with new vets and farriers, but I don't. I asked myself a million times in the beginning was I doing the right thing for Billy?
    Was this the right place for him? Turns out it was. I have learned over the past five years to trust Billy's vet and farrier because I know now they will do their very best for him and it's been proven they have. You don't have that confidence yet so they are going to have to prove themselves to you. I think one area of research that would be a huge benefit to you and your horse is his diet. There is a group on Yahoo called the Cushing's Group or something like that. Dr. Eleanor Kellon leads this group. I have joined it, but I have found it is too busy for me with way too many people so I have consulted with an Equine Nutrionist and researched things myself.
    Yep already joined the group and made diet changes until we get more answers. It is a very busy group over there but has been pretty informative.

    Thanks for all the recommendations!



  10. #50
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    Nov. 16, 2004
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    NE Indiana
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    Glad to hear you have a new vet! I think you'll need to go by what he suggests first, depending on the rotation. You say "major"...did he actually give you a number (in degrees)?

    I have a horse with pretty bad navicular issues - corrective shoes and wedges were prescribed by the vet, they weren't working, so we went with more frequent trims instead and she's making steady progress. You know your horse, don't be afraid to question their ideas, just be armed with your knowledge to back it up .



  11. #51
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    May. 26, 2005
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    Houston TX
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    I agree with FHF - I think he is effectively saying back up the toes and lower and back up the heels.

    On toes - which can be confusing - whacking/backing the toes.
    That means nothing is removed/trimmed from underneath the toe - the toe is brought back - like you cut your fingernails.

    Imagine that your fingernail has pulled away from the nailbed. Everytime you hit that nail on something - it would hurt and probably cause more tearing/separation. The first thing you would do for yourself is clip that nail back as far as you could.

    The hoof wall and lamina of the horse is much the same.
    If the horse has bare hooves and long toes (remember - not "high" toes)
    each step increases the possibility of more tearing of lamina from the wall.
    Plus is painful. Back up the toes and make a "tight" hoof.
    It follows of course to lower and back up the heels. To what extent your vet/farrier recommends.

    There will always be the argument about lowering the heels. I am of the opinion to lower them. How much - depends. The toe area hurts - so horses want to put less weight on them. So the heel area must be comfortable for them to put their weight on. And surely when trimming heels the horse must be able to weight the heels - put them all the way on the ground. That must be carefully observed when trimming. The wrong thing is to make the horse carry more weight on the toes/area under the coffin bone.

    To answer your one question - I am of the opinion to keep the hooves bare so the hooves can be trimmed more often. Foundered hooves have unusual ways of growing. It is easier to keep up with/stay ahead of the growth when one can better access the areas needing touch-ups. Touch-ups might be weekly or every two weeks - again - all depending. The barefoot foundering horse might needs boots and pads - maybe not.

    Were I to go with shoes for a foundering horse I think I would try the Eponas.
    I think they can be glued on.
    Lyme Disease - please excuse my comprehension difficultes



  12. #52
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    Aug. 25, 2012
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    641

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    Quote Originally Posted by hundredacres View Post
    Glad to hear you have a new vet! I think you'll need to go by what he suggests first, depending on the rotation. You say "major"...did he actually give you a number (in degrees)?

    I have a horse with pretty bad navicular issues - corrective shoes and wedges were prescribed by the vet, they weren't working, so we went with more frequent trims instead and she's making steady progress. You know your horse, don't be afraid to question their ideas, just be armed with your knowledge to back it up .
    Hi! So the originally vet said the left front was out about 15 degrees and that has in the past four weeks improved to about 8 degrees.

    The right is his foot that is a little clubby that again has shown a similar rotation but I was able to track down some x-rays of that foot from 2008 and it doesn't look too much different then it does now so still trying to figure that one out.

    The new vet while with me today looked at the copy of the x-rays I have and I'm going to email him the originals so he can open them in a program and get better measurements on them and he will let me know more.

    He agreed though that there are troublesome issues we have to get straightend out.

    Glad to hear your horse is making progress!



  13. #53
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    Aug. 25, 2012
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    Quote Originally Posted by grayarabs View Post
    I agree with FHF - I think he is effectively saying back up the toes and lower and back up the heels.

    On toes - which can be confusing - whacking/backing the toes.
    That means nothing is removed/trimmed from underneath the toe - the toe is brought back - like you cut your fingernails.

    Imagine that your fingernail has pulled away from the nailbed. Everytime you hit that nail on something - it would hurt and probably cause more tearing/separation. The first thing you would do for yourself is clip that nail back as far as you could.

    The hoof wall and lamina of the horse is much the same.
    If the horse has bare hooves and long toes (remember - not "high" toes)
    each step increases the possibility of more tearing of lamina from the wall.
    Plus is painful. Back up the toes and make a "tight" hoof.
    It follows of course to lower and back up the heels. To what extent your vet/farrier recommends.

    There will always be the argument about lowering the heels. I am of the opinion to lower them. How much - depends. The toe area hurts - so horses want to put less weight on them. So the heel area must be comfortable for them to put their weight on. And surely when trimming heels the horse must be able to weight the heels - put them all the way on the ground. That must be carefully observed when trimming. The wrong thing is to make the horse carry more weight on the toes/area under the coffin bone.

    To answer your one question - I am of the opinion to keep the hooves bare so the hooves can be trimmed more often. Foundered hooves have unusual ways of growing. It is easier to keep up with/stay ahead of the growth when one can better access the areas needing touch-ups. Touch-ups might be weekly or every two weeks - again - all depending. The barefoot foundering horse might needs boots and pads - maybe not.

    Were I to go with shoes for a foundering horse I think I would try the Eponas.
    I think they can be glued on.
    That makes a lot of sense thank you! I agree I like the idea behind barefoot and boots I was just curious as to what is most popular or if it really didn't make a huge difference as long as a good proper trim was in place.



  14. #54
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    May. 26, 2005
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    Houston TX
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    Is your horse barefoot now?
    Lyme Disease - please excuse my comprehension difficultes



  15. #55
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    Aug. 25, 2012
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    Quote Originally Posted by grayarabs View Post
    Is your horse barefoot now?
    No he is not if you go to the album here:

    http://s1297.beta.photobucket.com/us...ccrae/library/

    You can see a progression of x-rays and different ways he has been shod since this started.

    All pictures were taken right after being shod.



  16. #56
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    Sep. 7, 2011
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    Cool, CA
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    Quote Originally Posted by grayarabs View Post
    I agree with FHF - I think he is effectively saying back up the toes and lower and back up the heels.

    On toes - which can be confusing - whacking/backing the toes.
    That means nothing is removed/trimmed from underneath the toe - the toe is brought back - like you cut your fingernails.
    Korrekt!

    Nothing off the palmer (ground) surface, and a dub, or even a rocker back to the white line of the foot. (Assuming the vet feels the rocker won't weaken the toe area and cause more issues)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kwalker024 View Post
    Thanks for the reply Matthew! I agree we will definitely have to figure out what is right for him as far as heel height goes on that right front and will definitely make sure both farrier and vet discuss a course of action with each other.

    Any feelings as far as to trim more often and use boots and inserts, trim less often and use shoes and pads, or other methods?

    Thanks again!

    While a pad would be great for protection, if anything goes wrong, you'll never know about it until too late.

    My cautious read, would be to keep the horse barefoot, stalled, and in heavy shavings, (no cheaping out, knee-deep!) and 3~4 week intervals on trims until x-rays show some sole depth, and the vet agrees that the sole can actually be (carefully) trimmed.

    Then, if finances permitted, I'd probably prefer to shoe with some of the Equithane pour in pad material. Super-soft in the front 2/3, regular-soft in the back 1/3.


    Edit: One of the local vets is still a fan of the Robber Shoeing (shoes put on backwards) for these sorts of problems, and I have to say it does work well. If shoes were put on now, I'd probably go that direction, with the pour in pad material in the back 2/3 of the foot.
    Matthew Kiwala
    Foothill Farriers
    (530) 870-4390



  17. #57
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    Aug. 25, 2012
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    Nothing off the palmer (ground) surface, and a dub, or even a rocker back to the white line of the foot. (Assuming the vet feels the rocker won't weaken the toe area and cause more issues)
    That makes sense the farrier did mention in the right front that in the toe area he had blown the white line if I remember his terminology correctly. What does that mean.

    While a pad would be great for protection, if anything goes wrong, you'll never know about it until too late.
    This has definitely been a concern as at this point I couldn't even deduce if he blows an abscess in the sole area.

    My cautious read, would be to keep the horse barefoot, stalled, and in heavy shavings, (no cheaping out, knee-deep!) and 3~4 week intervals on trims until x-rays show some sole depth, and the vet agrees that the sole can actually be (carefully) trimmed.
    I promise if that is the route we take I would have him swimming in shavings practically!

    Then, if finances permitted, I'd probably prefer to shoe with some of the Equithane pour in pad material. Super-soft in the front 2/3, regular-soft in the back 1/3.
    If that what ends up being done thankfully the finances would permit

    One of the local vets is still a fan of the Robber Shoeing (shoes put on backwards) for these sorts of problems, and I have to say it does work well. If shoes were put on now, I'd probably go that direction, with the pour in pad material in the back 2/3 of the foot.
    I've heard about this and have been quite interested about it too.



  18. #58
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    May. 26, 2005
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    Houston TX
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    K - well that is one of the concerns with shoes and pads.

    You can also be in a "melluva hess" if your horse does not like the shoeing/pad package. Some don't. IIRC the pour-in stuff can be hard. ? Probably the materials have improved since I had that method used on a horse years ago.
    Whatever - some horses feel more painful.
    And if the horse pulls a shoe - geez.
    Plus doesn't hammering the nails in hurt a bit? And require the horse to bear weight longer on the other hoof while being shod?
    If something happens with shoes on - you need a farrier that can get there quickly to address the issues. I just don't like the idea of going through the process of shoes and pads - that have the potential to have to be removed.

    Horses with no hoof pathologies usually are trimmed/shod every 4-6 weeks.
    With a foundered horse - I would not go that long between trims.
    Maybe its just me - but I would hate to see shoes put on and pulled off so often. But I guess that it is what is often done.

    Looking back when my horse foundered - and the things I did not know - things that were done wrong - just makes me cringe. I didn't know any better.
    I put my trust in the vet and the farrier she recommended.

    The farrier pulled both front shoes. My horse stood then bare on concrete - picking up his worse hoof and putting it down. Again and again. Then the farrier put a shoe on his less rotated hoof first. So my horse was really hot-footing it on that bad hoof. Shoe was then hammered on that hoof and then some kind of acrylic was shot in the back. I guess it covered the sole. I shudder to remember. I don't think I want to remember. It was all done wrong. I know now the toes were left too long and heels left too high - particularly on his more rotated higher-heeled "clubby" narrower hoof.

    Anyway...

    The Eponas are not rubber shoes - I don't think. I cannot remember exactly what materials are used with them. If they are glued on - and need to be removed - is the glue a problem? Are they difficult/problematic to remove?
    Lyme Disease - please excuse my comprehension difficultes



  19. #59
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    Sep. 13, 2002
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    Pacific Northwest
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    Just going to add my support for good communication between vet and farrier. When my boy foundered, when he was to the point of having my farrier work on him, I was fortunate to get both vet and farrier together at my barn. They had the horse there in front of them, side by side laptops on the hay viewing X-rays, and worked together to assess his current situation and determine how to proceed. My vet had not worked with my farrier in the past, so it was good to get them together like that, and for future care, they communicated by phone (I think my vet figured out my farrier really was as good as I said he was).

    We started out with deep bedding, taped foam support initially, then soft-ride boots, and fairly soon got his toes "whacked back" and bar shoes with pour in pads applied. My horse had only mild rotation and was quite stable and happy at that time, however. Initially, my farrier would not have wanted to nail into the foot. I seem to recall that we put him on a shorter cycle too, as I usually go 6 weeks, but I think we were resetting at 5.

    OP, I think you are doing a spectacular job seeking out all the information you can as well as good professional help. Best wishes for you and your horse. I've been there, and it isn't fun.



  20. #60
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    Aug. 25, 2012
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    Default Update with pics!

    Hi everyone farrier and vet were out today and we've had a lot of great progress. I'll post x-rays tomorrow but his left front the vet felt had improved to about 2 degrees and the right front when measured off of where the new hoof is growing out before you factor in the dish is looking awesome too.

    Below though is the link to his current trim. Is this in line with what we were striving for? Also, we stuck with shoes although we've now moved onto a shoe that he "rockered" in the front and hot shod to his hoof. The vet felt like we could ditch the pads and heartbar shoe.

    Also, sent off more bloodwork to Cornell to test his leptin etc. so that should be back in a few days.

    Would love any and all feedback!

    Pics:

    http://s1297.beta.photobucket.com/us...02012%20Hooves

    Thanks everyone!



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