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  1. #1
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    Default When is it OK for Horse Show Owners to Compete at Their Own Shows

    When is it ok for a horse show owner to compete in his/her own shows? When is it ok for them to show their international horses in classes that are FAR lower than international or even grand prix level?
    Is it ok for them to show as long as the money goes back to the show? Or only if they show hors concours?
    Last edited by The Alternate; Jan. 10, 2014 at 08:32 PM.



  2. #2
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    Would you have an issue with it if he didn't own the horse show but still showed his 1.60m horse in the 1.20m? You don't know why he did it.



  3. #3
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    I have an inkling that I may know who this is...as far as I know he was having some issues with said horse and it was barely going around the 1.20s confidently at the last show I saw it at.

    Could be way off here as I don't know for sure, but there's only a few Canadian pros that fit that bill...



  4. #4
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    I also asked WHEN it was ok for a horse show owner to compete at one of his own shows, this includes ANY showing of ANY horse at ANY level competing by owner at owner shows.
    Last edited by The Alternate; Jan. 10, 2014 at 08:32 PM.



  5. #5
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    Anytime they care to, within the rules.



  6. #6
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    I read it as him not competing in the GPs at the same show that he took said horse in the 1.20s.

    Whether or not it's the same professional, I know of a pro from Canada that was on the Canadian team that does have a 1.60 horse that showed at the International level that either injured itself last year or has had some confidence issues. I think in this instance, it's okay.

    Also, if said hunter derby was an open class, I also don't have an issue. I have competed against many a GP horse in many hunter derbies. The last show I went to was chock full of people straight out of the high level jumpers trying their hand at a derby. IF there was a bigger derby offered (height-wise), then yes, he should have done that. If not, I say fair game.

    As per the "at your own show" thing...meh. Doesn't really bug me too much. You still have to jump all the fences and leave them all up. You don't have THAT much of an advantage just because you're on home turf.



  7. #7
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    I'm not quite as opposed to the show owner appearing in the jumper ring as I am in the hunters, but almost so; in the hunters, to compete in a subjective discipline in front of the judge that you are paying, is just unseemly. And even in the jumpers; to the extent the show owner places in a class, the competitor who finished just out of the ribbons thinks "he took my spot; I paid to come here and enter the class, I rented a stall, I paid administrative fees to that guy, and he got a ribbon?". Bad for business, if you ask me. It's not about whether he's got an advantage; it's about courtesy. If you are putting the show on, that's your job for the day. Let your "customers" have their day.



  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Alternate View Post
    Again, read the questions. I also said he competed in the grand prix's at his shows with said horse. I also asked WHEN it was ok for a horse show owner to compete at one of his own shows, this includes ANY showing of ANY horse at ANY level competing by owner at owner shows.
    Not that I think you deserve a response due to this post (rude, much?) I don't have a problem with an owner of the shows competing in any classes the qualify to compete in.

    I also don't have a problem with ANYONE competing in classes lower than their "normal" classes as long as they qualify. I have no idea what might be going on with the rider or the horse or even the showing schedule that might having them making that decision. Sounds like sour grapes from the complainers to me.
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  9. #9
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    I do not think there are any rules against it, so I would likely be grateful that they are holding the show as they are a lot of work.

    I could see it being a bit of a thrill to get to compete against a high level horse/rider...students can say they competed against so and so!



  10. #10
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    As long as he plays by the rules of the class, I don't really see a problem with it. If you don't like it, don't compete at his shows. As others have mentioned, it's possible his GP horse was coming back from an injury, and putting the money back into the show is not the same as pocketing it. I can see how someone might see this as a ethically gray area, but as long as it was an open class, it was fair game. As for people complaining that he ribboned, that seems a bit crybabyish to me. If you don't win a class, you should take that as an opportunity to improve your riding skill so you can win decisively in the future, not look for excuses as to why the other rider unfairly beat you.



  11. #11
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    As long as no rules are being broken, I see no problem with it. It's not like he's also judging the class.
    Last edited by AdrenalineJunky; Oct. 10, 2012 at 12:34 AM. Reason: Spelling fail



  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by MHM View Post
    Anytime they care to, within the rules.
    This.

    Really, how is it any different in the grand scheme of things than the trainer running the show being at the gate while their people compete? You could say that the judge sees the rider is riding for the person who owns the place.



  13. #13
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    I too have an inkling as to who this is. I guess this is the reason we have Jr/Am classes. Assuming your are either or….it shouldn't affect you that much. Apart from the Hunter Derby idea…which in a case of its own is judged(we can pick on the judges in another thread!) I get the feeling that the big issue to you is the fact that he is a CET rider, with his CET horse competing in a 120cm. To which I say, he is probably in this division for a good reason (lack of time spent in saddle because she/he organizes these great shows ) and should look to other things to occupy your time.

    Sure you can find issue if secretly at night he is taking his horse out and schooling the jumps or looking at the course maps (oh no!). But really not going to happen. I also know of a few additional show organizers who show at their own venues, and it hasn't caused any friction. Its unfortunate to see you so disgruntled... as great show organizers (who understand what its like to be a rider) are really few and far between!



  14. #14
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    I'm inclined to disagree with you just because you were inexcusably rude for no reason. People frequently misread posts and ask dumb questions, and this was NOT one of those times.

    I think that you should be welcome to ride in any jumper class you qualify for, and that people who question why you are dropping your horse in a lower division should MTOB. I, personally, would not compete in a subjective competition that I was running, but I would have to see the size and scope of the show to comment on someone else's integrity. If it was a big old 5 ring circus, I find that more acceptable than a little local show, because the quality of the competition would be much higher and I believe the judges would be more secure in their ability to score fairly. I still don't think it's a great idea.

    I just remembered as I was typing that I once competed in an extremely small breed show on someone's farm, whose children were in nearly every class. If anything, I placed higher than I should have that weekend and saw no favoritism whatsoever, but that was just my one experience.
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Alternate View Post
    What does everyone think of situations like this? When is it ok for a horse show owner to compete in his/her own shows? When is it ok for them to show their international horses in classes that are FAR lower than international or even grand prix level?
    Is it ok for them to show as long as the money goes back to the show? Or only if they show hors concours?
    I can think of a couple of small A shows near me that may not be "owned" by the resident trainer, but for sure many of his horses/riders compete in it. The only advantage I see is that once they are done they get to go home...which is a leisurely walk across the parking lot I don't have a problem with the fact that they live there and show there. I can see why you may think there is a potential conflict of interest, but honestly there is opportunity for conflict of interest no matter where the show is held.

    And as far as doing a lower level class....who knows why he is doing it. There could be a very good reason that you are not privy to regarding his horse's current capabilities.

    Now me...I can't be bothered to stress over that type of scenario too much...I have my own issues to worry about when showing so I don't usually pay these things much mind



  16. #16
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    So long as the horse and/or rider are eligible for the class, I see no problem whatsoever with this. Jumpers is totally subjective. The fastest horse with the fewest faults wins. And in hunters, it would be the JUDGE who was being unfair by allowing the show operator to win. Most judges are more ethical than this.

    I have shown at quite a few horse show facilities (everything from C to A rated and local shows, FYI) where the farm owner competes in the show, sometimes on his/her own horses and sometimes on clients' horses. The farm owner/show operator always placed fairly according to his/her round. This happens all the time as far as I can tell and it never even occurred to me that it was unfair for the show operator to compete.



  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Alternate View Post
    Again, read the questions. I also said he competed in the grand prix's at his shows with said horse. I also asked WHEN it was ok for a horse show owner to compete at one of his own shows, this includes ANY showing of ANY horse at ANY level competing by owner at owner shows.
    I'm ignoring the main part of your question because, frankly, you've gotten your answer from plenty of other people.

    I still don't get the issue with said rider doing the GP and the 1.20m at the same show on the same horse. It's probably a warm up class for him. Or it's a confidence booster for the horse. Either way, it's jumpers, so whether he owns the show or not does not matter. You sound bitter... did he beat you?

    RugBug, I showed my mare in a class of the low junior/amateurs at Ox Ridge last year because she got a little freaked by the footing in the big classes (and there weren't any open classes left in the schedule), and you should have heard the stink that some people kicked up! I didn't even win, I just placed well enough to cover my entry fee, but you would have thought I was taking lollipops from children with some of the nasty remarks I got.



  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by goodlife View Post
    I read it as him not competing in the GPs at the same show that he took said horse in the 1.20s.

    Whether or not it's the same professional, I know of a pro from Canada that was on the Canadian team that does have a 1.60 horse that showed at the International level that either injured itself last year or has had some confidence issues. I think in this instance, it's okay.

    Also, if said hunter derby was an open class, I also don't have an issue. I have competed against many a GP horse in many hunter derbies. The last show I went to was chock full of people straight out of the high level jumpers trying their hand at a derby. IF there was a bigger derby offered (height-wise), then yes, he should have done that. If not, I say fair game.

    As per the "at your own show" thing...meh. Doesn't really bug me too much. You still have to jump all the fences and leave them all up. You don't have THAT much of an advantage just because you're on home turf.
    I totally agree with this, and also have an inkling of who it is! If the hunter derby is the one I'm thinking of he wasn't the only one in the class with a 1.20 (and bigger) horse! (so why just pick on this rider). Everything was to spec, it's an open class........ie: ANYONE can ride in it if they wish!

    As for the Grand Prix...depends on the height! Remember you can go UP 2 levels and down 1 at a show! (although I'm thinking it was at a different show)
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  19. #19
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    Most people are unhappy with the show owner/manager (or whatever the name) openly entertaining judges and then showing in judged classes but otherwise what is the issue?



  20. #20
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    Even 1.60m horses need a break every once in awhile. Fortunately, this is allowed within the rules.

    Plenty of GP jumpers would flail in a Hunter Derby. Being able to jump big sticks does not automatically mean they will be a hands down winner in a 4' Derby.

    Perhaps think less of the human and more of the horse. Being resigned to jump 1.40m-1.60m for the rest of his career, just because he was once successful at it, is kind of sad.
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