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  1. #1
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    May. 25, 2005
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    Default spin off-Breeder's of NA...

    OK, am sure I will get a lot a flack for this but one reason folks travel overseas for horses is travel across US and density of horses one can see in Europe in a small area/ time frame. Well, I think we need to condense horses into certain geographical areas. It is already happening to a certain extent with showing to Fl in the winter and CA.

    If you wanted to be a Broadway singer you move to NY. Of course you could do it on a smaller scale with local theater companies, but to play in the big league you move to a city.

    I think if horse breeders condensed to a regions..ie; midatlantic it would be beneficial. I know where I live in central NC I can go to a schooling show or rated show almost every other week or so and not travel more than 2 hours tops. A few of the facilities here do schooling show series that give their own year end awards and are recognized by our local GMO for year end awards. We have a good handful of dressage instructors, trainers too. If we had more breeders in my area that could "feed" these young trainers and fill the shows even more this area could be a "travel" location for horse buyers.

    I realize that not everyone can pick up and move. However, if one was looking to move and wanted to partake in breeding ad showing this is a great location that could one day be built up to a "breeding area" like Wellington built up to a show venue.

    Just a thought!



  2. #2
    Join Date
    Apr. 6, 2005
    Location
    The \"wet\" coast of Canada
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    201

    Default Interesting...but...

    Here in the lower mainland of BC Canada the 'breeding area' is Langley and close by areas. Lots of schooling shows, several big show venues such as Thunderbird Show Park.
    Several reasonable cross country schooling areas, Campbell Valley Park in Langley and Island 22 out here in Chilliwack where I live.... about an hour away from Langley.
    All of that is lovely....BUT
    The catch for breeders....**very high** cost of land. And I do mean high! Langley land sells for about $225,000.00 per acre and out here a bit less, between $185,000.00 to $195,000.00 per acre. Put a decent house on it...price goes up more.
    In other areas further north in the Interior of BC the prices are lower...but the opportunities to show are less and the hauling distances are long.
    Yes it is a high density horse area...however few people can qualify for a mortgage even with decent paying full jobs. So people move out of the area or don't invest in breeding stock unless they bought land a long time ago..or if they win the lottery. <smile>
    Not sure how different states are in the USA price wise however I am assuming in some areas where there are a lot of horse show activity land prices are steep as well?
    Martha
    Breeder of Quality and Colour
    Tobiano Pinto Sporthorses
    www.jmrpintos.com



  3. #3
    Join Date
    Nov. 18, 2008
    Posts
    116

    Default

    I'm in central NY as well. Have a Silverstone, Bon Balou, Checkmate and a GRP coming. Maybe we can start our own breeding area.
    Next year ( after all bills are paid) I plan on breeding to Douglas, Arezzo VDL and if all goes well back to Checkmate or Bon Balou.

    Imhotep on my list as well



  4. #4
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    May. 25, 2005
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    Default

    Thankfully where I live property values are not nearly as high! Around here acreage sells for around 8-15K/ acre depending on how close you are to the triangle (Chapel Hill, Raleigh, Durham). And prbobaly less if you go about 45min-1 hour towards Greensboro/ Winston Salem area.

    For any WB breeders looking to relocate! We have relatively mild weather, three very good universities (UNC CH, Duke, NC State) an well as many smaller colleges (helps keep a more metropolitan and educated population), good health care facilities, relatively low cost of living, good job oppotunites between the schools and the Research Triangle Park, good pasture land, the vet school at NC State, other very good vets, good farriers, good trainers, lots of shows (dressage, eventing and H/J), good parks with plenty of trails....

    Really is an ideal place to live if you can swing it!!!!

    And if you are able you can trailer to Wellington in 12 hours for a stint at the big shows.

    I would love for this area to become the "breeders" area for WB sporthorses Make it a buyers destinations!!!



  5. #5
    Join Date
    Aug. 26, 2003
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    The good 'ole State of denial
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    Default

    YEP! We moved from horse show central to nowhere land, and have a newer home and 100 more acres for substantially less $$.

    Frankly, living in the middle of everything wasn't the answer either. A horse show is very different from a SALE. If there were venues to sell sporthorses that attracted serious buyers, that would be more appealing, and people from other areas could send them. But to do something like that the sale would need to be established as legitamate and bringing in buyers.

    I've lived in both worlds, and have friends with very nice horses that struggle to sell them in the smack of it all, unless you have the money and the name a small breeder is a small breeder regardless of location.

    As much as I miss the "easy access," there is so much I don't miss. Give and take.

    Quote Originally Posted by pinto power View Post
    Here in the lower mainland of BC Canada the 'breeding area' is Langley and close by areas. Lots of schooling shows, several big show venues such as Thunderbird Show Park.
    Several reasonable cross country schooling areas, Campbell Valley Park in Langley and Island 22 out here in Chilliwack where I live.... about an hour away from Langley.
    All of that is lovely....BUT
    The catch for breeders....**very high** cost of land. And I do mean high! Langley land sells for about $225,000.00 per acre and out here a bit less, between $185,000.00 to $195,000.00 per acre. Put a decent house on it...price goes up more.
    In other areas further north in the Interior of BC the prices are lower...but the opportunities to show are less and the hauling distances are long.
    Yes it is a high density horse area...however few people can qualify for a mortgage even with decent paying full jobs. So people move out of the area or don't invest in breeding stock unless they bought land a long time ago..or if they win the lottery. <smile>
    Not sure how different states are in the USA price wise however I am assuming in some areas where there are a lot of horse show activity land prices are steep as well?
    Martha
    Last edited by okggo; Oct. 9, 2012 at 02:48 PM.



  6. #6
    Join Date
    Feb. 9, 2005
    Location
    Upper Midwest
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    5,676

    Default

    If I was to up and move I would move to NC. Too bad I have a business (not horse related) here. We are in the wasteland of horse showing. You haul 4 hours north east to get to the twin cities, 3.5 hours to Omaha, or 4 hours to Mason City, IA. Des Moines is developing a nice show venue, but they are even further away. Depressing.

    But that's for shows. I'm not really sure that sales are fantastically concentrated anywhere in the midwest...

    Quote Originally Posted by bluehof View Post
    Thankfully where I live property values are not nearly as high! Around here acreage sells for around 8-15K/ acre depending on how close you are to the triangle (Chapel Hill, Raleigh, Durham). And prbobaly less if you go about 45min-1 hour towards Greensboro/ Winston Salem area.

    For any WB breeders looking to relocate! We have relatively mild weather, three very good universities (UNC CH, Duke, NC State) an well as many smaller colleges (helps keep a more metropolitan and educated population), good health care facilities, relatively low cost of living, good job oppotunites between the schools and the Research Triangle Park, good pasture land, the vet school at NC State, other very good vets, good farriers, good trainers, lots of shows (dressage, eventing and H/J), good parks with plenty of trails....

    Really is an ideal place to live if you can swing it!!!!

    And if you are able you can trailer to Wellington in 12 hours for a stint at the big shows.

    I would love for this area to become the "breeders" area for WB sporthorses Make it a buyers destinations!!!
    Siouxland Sporthorses: http://slsfarm.blogspot.com/

    DIY Journey of Remodeling the Farmette: http://weownblackacre.blogspot.com/



  7. #7
    Join Date
    Nov. 21, 2007
    Location
    Eastern PA
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    872

    Default

    I like Eastern PA a lot.

    Two hours to NYC, about an hour to Philly, access to some great vets and veterinary hospitals, (New Bolton, Mid Atlantic Equine, Quakertown....), reasonable land prices, easy access to good hay, and some very good young horse trainers.
    www.sauconycreeksporthorses.com
    Dedicated to breeding Friesian Sporthorses
    with world class pedigrees and sport suitability



  8. #8
    Join Date
    Dec. 2, 2002
    Location
    Waterford, VA USA
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    Default

    At the risk of being controversial, looking at all the litigation taking place currently involving horses imported from Europe, as well as what has happened in the past, I don't understand why American clients aren't willing to go the "extra mile" in order to see horses in the US that are subject to US laws and will get them the same results as their European counterparts.

    Granted, there's always the "European flair" that you couldn't possibly get in the US, but how uneducated are US buyers really that they can't distinguish between European "fanfare" and actual quality?

    How many threads does it take before the average US buyer recognizes that s(he) will be taken for a BIG ride when shopping in Holland of Germany? Unless you know somebody who has experience in dealing with the minds of European horse traders you will be taken advantage of.... the only question is.. how much!

    Even though I'm from Europe, I'm tired of lies and shenanigans put forth by European horse dealers when it comes to US clients, and I think it's time to take a closer look at what is produced right here in the US before you listen to a fancy ad and a slick pitch put forth by our European counterparts.

    Just my opinion.....
    Siegi Belz
    www.stalleuropa.com
    2007 KWPN-NA Breeder of the Year
    Dutch Warmbloods Made in the U. S. A.



  9. #9
    Join Date
    Aug. 30, 2007
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    599

    Default

    Certainly a lot of horse shows here in Southern California/Los Angeles, and certainly a lot of buyers, but not much land anyone is going to "waste" on a pasture. Few are lucky enough to have much land of their own, and not many boarding barns offer anything other than stall board. My mare in foal is boarded at a big show barn in a small shared paddock to the tune of $500/mo. She'll be moved elsewhere to a bigger pasture, further away, once foal is born.

    Maybe that's where the disconnect is. HERE is where the buyers wanting the end product are. None of them can really afford nor do they want to deal with boarding a young horse. Maybe y'all should send your ready-to-break horses down here...We do have some fabulous hunter/jumper trainers who are downright amazing at breaking and starting.



  10. #10
    Join Date
    Sep. 14, 2000
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    Goochland, VA
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    Default

    I think what should happen is something done once a year, 2-3 venues in different parts of the country, but on coordinated days. You would know the days well in advance, prepare your young horses and then bring them to the venue closest to you. No auction or sale, but a gathering place for many horses to be shown to prospective buyers over a couple of days, then the buyers could move on to the next place and see another large gathering.

    It would NOT be in conjunction with a show, but would need either a farm or show site for stabling and facilities. An organizer/manager to set it up and facilitate breeder/buyer contacts. A small catalog with breeding and training achievements. Jumpers and hunters (and dressage if they were interested).

    It would have to be promoted heavily and be exclusively for NA bred horses.
    Laurie
    Finding, preparing, showing and training young hunters, in hand and performance.
    www.juniorjohnsontrainingandsales.com



  11. #11

    Default

    I agree with Seigi 100%. I just met this Italian chef while on vacation and he told me it was a great time to visit Italy because they are desperate for tourists and aren't screwing the Americans over as much as before. Pretty sure that applies with horse buying trips too. I lived in Brasil for many years and we always had to ask our Brasilian friends to make purchases for us because the second they saw it was an American the price doubled. That's how I got my first horse...asked our Brasilian farmer friend to pretend it was for him and he got the horse for 1/2 of what they told my parents an hour earlier. I prefer the home tuff advantage.



  12. #12
    Join Date
    May. 28, 2003
    Location
    NOVA
    Posts
    859

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by lauriep View Post
    I think what should happen is something done once a year, 2-3 venues in different parts of the country, but on coordinated days. You would know the days well in advance, prepare your young horses and then bring them to the venue closest to you. No auction or sale, but a gathering place for many horses to be shown to prospective buyers over a couple of days, then the buyers could move on to the next place and see another large gathering.

    It would NOT be in conjunction with a show, but would need either a farm or show site for stabling and facilities. An organizer/manager to set it up and facilitate breeder/buyer contacts. A small catalog with breeding and training achievements. Jumpers and hunters (and dressage if they were interested).

    It would have to be promoted heavily and be exclusively for NA bred horses.
    We did exactly this almost to the last detail -- the Mid-Atlantic Hanoverian Breeders Club ran a "Sales Fest" for 5-6 years straight. In the early years (2000?), the Sales Fest was restricted to club members and also to just Hanoverian horses, but in later years, it was held over multiple weekend days over a long weekend (e.g., Columbus Day weekend) and opened up to outside breeders/breeds. We had a good mix of foals, undersaddle horses, and broodmares -- the quality was undeniable.

    Ads in major horse publications, decent venues close to transportation hubs, receptions, previews, wine, etc. Most years, we breeders showed each other our young horses and you could count the number of "buyers" on one hand. Many of our club members absolutely "burned out" putting this event together year after year. After years of effort, there were very few sales and no where near enough to feasibly justify the club continuing to underwrite the costs.

    After a retrospective analysis, the group concluded that such a sales event would HAVE to go to the buyers (meaning trainers) at a popular venue (e.g., Wellington) rather than expect the buyers to come to the event.

    I think a group of pony breeders/trainers recently put something like this together in the Carolinas. I'd be interested to hear how their event turned out.
    "That is why you have a pony..." - Edgewood, 2011



  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jan. 22, 2005
    Posts
    2,598

    Default

    I deal with the European breeders and dealers almost on a daily basis.

    Guess what ? All you have to do is walk away one time and they come right in line. Can't blame them for trying.

    The problem is when buyers from North America get on a plane , go to Europe and are HELL BENT on buying a horse while they are there. One puts themselves at a great dis-advantage when exhibiting this behaviour.

    Walk away when you think your are being taken advantage of........it's not hard people.

    There is no law that says you can't fly right back home without buying.



  14. #14
    Join Date
    Dec. 14, 2007
    Posts
    420

    Post

    Some Europeans also rip off Americans by misrepresenting horses and not disclosing problems that vet checks won't find. It is much harder to get away with that when Americans are buying and selling in their own country.

    I know of a couple of instances first hand of Germans doing this. One time they did do it to the wrong lady. She had enough resources to go after them for it. She got some nice free horses sent over out of it.



  15. #15
    Join Date
    Feb. 25, 1999
    Location
    San Ramon/Castro Valley/Brentwood, California
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    Default

    From experience.....the Europeans see the Americans coming the price will suddenly go up! I prefer to keep my $$$ in America. I have no issue buying semen from Europe; but I do believe that we are producing some top notch stallions here...just look at who is at the 70 day test right now! Yes, I know in Europe one can see a gazillion horses in a small area and here we are all scattered. Land is a premium here in California but I still have my 30 acres in Texas. ;-) Breeders need land to bring up baby right, no doubt. Breeders also need access to close by vet hospitals. Here in my area there is the first Pacific Coast Sport Horse Auction happening on Oct 19 I think in Vacaville, Ca at Christiane Noelting's place. I applaud her efforts to organize this auction of carefully selected dressage horses, young and schoolmaster types and in between. ;-) This would be the ideal place to get the young horse trainers together too! We don't all know each other. California is HUGE! ;-) Hence the regional dressage championships are held in southern Ca one year and in northern Ca the next. ;-) America has come a long way since the first warmbloods were imported. I just have an issue with how we're thought of over there. Nelson Pessoa has made some comments about how the Europeans jump the hell out of their horses at 1.30 meters and then sell them to us who only want to jump 1.15. Sorry, I think we can make our own!!!! I damn sure don't want to give Pessoa any of my $$$. ;-) It all starts with the breeders choosing the right mare and stallion and quality of mare base. We have that in America....so.....can we not keep our $$$ here? And can we please not sell our top notch show jumpers abroad or to Dubai?



  16. #16
    Join Date
    Jan. 26, 2012
    Location
    Barboursville, VA
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    431

    Default

    Due to our geographical split, there is perhaps only one thing that can bring us all together? The Internet! We need one central site, a database, that we can all depend on.

    This database, can be used to unify all breeders in say, show jumping? (example only) Here we can freely promote our business, have a discussion forum, and offer information. No advertising sales per say, just one place people can go to when they look for others out there doing the same thing? One location prospective breeders can come to find their show jumping stallion's for breeding purposes?

    I have had many a conversions with breeders alike who feel alone and singular. We need to find a way to connect and know who is out there doing what.

    Just a thought.....
    Hyperion Stud, LLC.
    Europe's Finest, Made in America
    WWW.HYPERIONSTUD.com
    Standing Elite and Approved Stallions



  17. #17
    Join Date
    Nov. 21, 2007
    Location
    Eastern PA
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    872

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Sabino Farm View Post
    I agree with Seigi 100%. I just met this Italian chef while on vacation and he told me it was a great time to visit Italy because they are desperate for tourists and aren't screwing the Americans over as much as before. Pretty sure that applies with horse buying trips too. I lived in Brasil for many years and we always had to ask our Brasilian friends to make purchases for us because the second they saw it was an American the price doubled.
    But I thought it was just Americans who were greedy and untrustworthy?

    I'm sure there's all sorts of psychological factors that go into the "imported is more desirable" viewpoint. On the simplest level, it's the "grass is always greener" cliche. Then there's the "exclusivity" factor of having the means to import.

    Perhaps those 'in the know' could correct me if I'm wrong, but in Europe, many great horses come from small breeders -- no bigger than many of the breeders in NA. They own 2 to 5 great mares, and use the same big name stallions that many of us use via frozen. And like many of us here, many of them don't have super fancy farms. Maybe what's considered "charming" over there would be considered "trashy" here? I don't know!
    www.sauconycreeksporthorses.com
    Dedicated to breeding Friesian Sporthorses
    with world class pedigrees and sport suitability



  18. #18
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    Jul. 27, 2005
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    Chapel Hill, NC
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    3,226

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bluehof View Post
    Thankfully where I live property values are not nearly as high! Around here acreage sells for around 8-15K/ acre depending on how close you are to the triangle (Chapel Hill, Raleigh, Durham). And prbobaly less if you go about 45min-1 hour towards Greensboro/ Winston Salem area.

    For any WB breeders looking to relocate! We have relatively mild weather, three very good universities (UNC CH, Duke, NC State) an well as many smaller colleges (helps keep a more metropolitan and educated population), good health care facilities, relatively low cost of living, good job oppotunites between the schools and the Research Triangle Park, good pasture land, the vet school at NC State, other very good vets, good farriers, good trainers, lots of shows (dressage, eventing and H/J), good parks with plenty of trails....

    Really is an ideal place to live if you can swing it!!!!

    And if you are able you can trailer to Wellington in 12 hours for a stint at the big shows.

    I would love for this area to become the "breeders" area for WB sporthorses Make it a buyers destinations!!!
    We are right outside of Chapel Hill NC and love it. It is a wonderful place to continue our WB breeding program. There are many venues to take young horses to all within an hour drive and Warrenton and Upperville were a 4 hour drive away. We have been very fortunate to have buyers (both Ammy and Professional) purchase our foals and all have been willing to either buy from pictures and videos or travel to meet them in person. We are still quite new to breeding so still trying to figure out what works for our farm best. I do love the area though and I would love to see it continue to grow with other breeders
    Worth A Shot Farm
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  19. #19
    Join Date
    Nov. 9, 2004
    Location
    Elizabethtown, KY
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    2,689

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by siegi b. View Post
    At the risk of being controversial, looking at all the litigation taking place currently involving horses imported from Europe, as well as what has happened in the past, I don't understand why American clients aren't willing to go the "extra mile" in order to see horses in the US that are subject to US laws and will get them the same results as their European counterparts.

    Granted, there's always the "European flair" that you couldn't possibly get in the US, but how uneducated are US buyers really that they can't distinguish between European "fanfare" and actual quality?

    How many threads does it take before the average US buyer recognizes that s(he) will be taken for a BIG ride when shopping in Holland of Germany? Unless you know somebody who has experience in dealing with the minds of European horse traders you will be taken advantage of.... the only question is.. how much!

    Even though I'm from Europe, I'm tired of lies and shenanigans put forth by European horse dealers when it comes to US clients, and I think it's time to take a closer look at what is produced right here in the US before you listen to a fancy ad and a slick pitch put forth by our European counterparts.

    Just my opinion.....
    I'll be totally honest here, this is a bit insulting. I get annoyed when people zip off to Europe to buy horses and don't look here, too, but I went over in spring for the first time and it had nothing to do with fanfare or some kind of propaganda put forth by Europeans.

    I did look here first. I vetted one youngster who did not pass, and looked and looked for a month to find others that were what I am looking for. I found one who looked interesting, in waaaay north western Canada, and a couple in CA who were rather pricey for the quality. A trip to Europe was cheaper, I saw 200 young horses in one week and rode 40! All were well bred and correct, though of course some were perfectly average as expected. Others were superb, and those were the ones I vetted and bought.

    It is a bit naive, or even rude, to suggest that every buyer traveling to Europe is only looking to be able to say they have an import, and have no concept of quality. How many "good breeders" here in NA are there? How many of them imported their breeding horses and use imported semen? So only these few people are able to select quality horses and now nobody else should shop overseas?

    I want people to shop here as much as the next person, but many people won't. With the Euro to dollar still not being overly favorable, and the high costs of import, we are in a position to hopefully offer people a quality product domestically and tap into that maket. But to insult the very buyers you wish to sway is hardly the way to go. I am very much capable of selecting quality horses and knowing when I am getting a price I am comfortable with, and I suspect plenty of other buyers are as well.

    In order to compete, we have to be able to offer a better product, at a better price. Until we have a training system in place, and show costs are made more reasonable, I suspect we will have a hard time doing either. JMHO.
    Destiny is not a matter of chance, it is a matter of choice; it is not a thing to be waited for, it is a thing to be achieved. - William Jennings Bryan

    http://www.halcyon-hill.com



  20. #20
    Join Date
    Sep. 14, 2000
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    Goochland, VA
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bent Hickory View Post
    We did exactly this almost to the last detail -- the Mid-Atlantic Hanoverian Breeders Club ran a "Sales Fest" for 5-6 years straight. In the early years (2000?), the Sales Fest was restricted to club members and also to just Hanoverian horses, but in later years, it was held over multiple weekend days over a long weekend (e.g., Columbus Day weekend) and opened up to outside breeders/breeds. We had a good mix of foals, undersaddle horses, and broodmares -- the quality was undeniable.

    Ads in major horse publications, decent venues close to transportation hubs, receptions, previews, wine, etc. Most years, we breeders showed each other our young horses and you could count the number of "buyers" on one hand. Many of our club members absolutely "burned out" putting this event together year after year. After years of effort, there were very few sales and no where near enough to feasibly justify the club continuing to underwrite the costs.

    After a retrospective analysis, the group concluded that such a sales event would HAVE to go to the buyers (meaning trainers) at a popular venue (e.g., Wellington) rather than expect the buyers to come to the event.

    I think a group of pony breeders/trainers recently put something like this together in the Carolinas. I'd be interested to hear how their event turned out.
    The key element you were missing, though, is the trainer connection. You need one respected trainer to get onboard, or someone who knows a lot of trainers, to get them there ONE TIME, and then the event would have to sell itself. And the breeders/sellers would have to be scrupulously honest and businesslike. I am talking all private sales, no auction or public sale, so the sellers would also have to be very realistic in their pricing. Which this country has a history of being unrealistic.

    Using the internet isn't the answer. These horses need to be seen in person, ridden by the prospective buyers (if old enough) and available for exam. Like Pony Finals, but without the auction.

    It would be an enormous amount of work to start, but once it was on the radar as the real deal, trainers would come. If you build it (correctly), they will come.
    Laurie
    Finding, preparing, showing and training young hunters, in hand and performance.
    www.juniorjohnsontrainingandsales.com



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