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  1. #41
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    Jan. 7, 2001
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyy View Post
    Yes, we usually hire on a groom just for the show. Quite often, it is the assistant trainer (she just teaches up downers at home usually) who takes on all of this work and that's what allows her to be able to take her horse to the away shows. It gets problematic when she is banking on a certain amount of work (she gets paid per horse at the away shows) and someone cancels last minute. This means that she has to shell out extra money to make up the difference between her show costs and what she expected to earn. Until recently, we didn't have that problem. We now have some new clients, however, who are in the financial position that losing a stall fee because they no longer feel like going is not a problem. We too are going to have to come up with some cancellation policies to protect our employees, ourselves and our other customers whose budget was able to handle an away show based on a certain "split".
    I think that you and meup are both right. Once you sign up for a show, you should be ready to attend. Unless something serious comes up, you should follow up on the commitment. Many barns can only take so many horses (limited trailer space, groom issues etc) and by putting your name in that slot on the white board, you are potentially bumping someone else.
    Barns that are hiring on extra help for the show have offered those people work and will have to pay them either way.
    Meup, I agree with your point about "full service" barns charging big day fees for the same services that they are already paying for at home. Grooms/muckers and such that are barn employees are rarely paid any of that money and rely on tips from horse owners for extra income at shows. The client that is already paying $80/day in "full board" then is aked for $70/day in show day care, which is never seen by the person who cleans her horse's stall, her horse or her tack, and then feels obligated to tip that person $20+ per day.
    F O.B
    Resident racing historian ~~~ Re-riders Clique
    Founder of the Mighty Thoroughbred Clique



  2. #42
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    Apr. 13, 2005
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    I much prefer the way several trainers I know bill.

    Day-care rate does not change w/# of clients attending. Grooming rate is X - only a horse owner with multiple horses gets a prorated cost. Extra stalls - divvied up with # attending.

    Trainer fees - if you are the only one, it's X. If it's between such & such # attending, it's Y, and any more than A Number, it's Z. A trainer can figure out approximates so they aren't as dependent on just one student. Allows flexibility for the ammy, the young student who might get grounded, and isn't much of a head-ache to figure out.



  3. #43
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    May. 5, 2009
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wizard of Oz's View Post
    Our barn made similar changes within the last couple of years due to people canceling from the show last minute. Our new rule is, once you send in your entries with the barn, and trailer fees are payed, there is no backing out. You still have to pay trailer, stall, trainer, and day care fees. Our rules are in place because a couple years ago we had 6 clients going to a bigger show with the trainers, and only 2 ended up actually going (one horse injury, tow rider injuries, one with money issues). Because so many people backed out, the two that did go ended up paying way more than they bargained for, considering stall splits for tack/grooming stalls, paying more for transport since there were fewer horses, and the trainers lost a bunch of trainer fees. So now we have those rules so nobody gets screwed. People were mad at first, but it's really not fair to leave someone else to pay your stall splits and trailer fees because you decided you can't afford it after you already committed.
    Why should a legitimate horse or human injury be penalized and have to pay?
    Come to the dark side, we have cookies



  4. #44
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    Jun. 7, 2006
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pennywell Bay View Post
    Why should a legitimate horse or human injury be penalized and have to pay?
    You aren't being penalized, you are experiencing 'bad luck.' And you are being prevented from shunting the costs of your bad luck on everyone else.

    I used to work at a sports enter that offered massages.
    People would cancel the morning of claiming a 'death in the family' and the massage therapist would be left with an hour of time the WOULD HAVE earned them $60 because they were always booked in advance but now someone didn't want to show and didn't want to pay for their slot either. So effectively they think THEIR bad luck should also be the massage therapist's bad luck.

    The only time a legitimate injury should get someone out of paying for their "reserved slot" of the horse show is if the trainer being paid somehow caused the problem. If you get the chicken pox or your horse gets an inconvenient abscess, that is bad luck for you, not something that should get you out of paing for a slot which you chose to reserve. You don't get to stop paying board for your reserved stall at home when your horse goes lame, why should you get out of the additional obligation you voluntarily undertook at the show?



  5. #45
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    Sep. 26, 2010
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    This discussion reminds me of what used to happen when I first started teaching university courses on the side. I'd always have a handful of people claiming a death in the family, car trouble, as reasons why they didn't show up for an exam. It took too much time to figure out who's excuses were legitimate and who's weren't. What I ended up doing after the first semester was adding one more exam to the schedule than the other professors had. Everyone got one drop score. If they didn't show up to the exam, that was the score that got dropped. I didn't ask what happened, I didn't care either. Everyone got one "bye" and that was it. Was this a bit of a pain in the neck to some people? Probably so given the extra studying they had to do for my class. However, it gave *everyone* a certain level of security in knowing they had that one chance to use for whatever.

    I look at show fees and rules the same way. Would I feel bad and maybe even a bit peeved if I had to pay something if my horse was lame and couldn't show? Yes, I probably would. However, the rules are more likely to save me money in the long run when it prevents other people from flaking out for random reasons.



  6. #46
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    May. 5, 2009
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    Location: Indiana, but my heart is in Zone II
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    Quote Originally Posted by meupatdoes View Post
    You aren't being penalized, you are experiencing 'bad luck.' And you are being prevented from shunting the costs of your bad luck on everyone else.

    I used to work at a sports enter that offered massages.
    People would cancel the morning of claiming a 'death in the family' and the massage therapist would be left with an hour of time the WOULD HAVE earned them $60 because they were always booked in advance but now someone didn't want to show and didn't want to pay for their slot either. So effectively they think THEIR bad luck should also be the massage therapist's bad luck.

    The only time a legitimate injury should get someone out of paying for their "reserved slot" of the horse show is if the trainer being paid somehow caused the problem. If you get the chicken pox or your horse gets an inconvenient abscess, that is bad luck for you, not something that should get you out of paing for a slot which you chose to reserve. You don't get to stop paying board for your reserved stall at home when your horse goes lame, why should you get out of the additional obligation you voluntarily undertook at the show?
    Shrug. Then we disagree. I'm glad the BNT's I have showed with (and the one's I worked with) don't charge fees like that. I would not show in a barn that did not give an out for emergencies. A show stall, I understand. Paying for shipping/fees for a show I did not go to. They can bite me.
    Come to the dark side, we have cookies



  7. #47
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    May. 11, 2004
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pennywell Bay View Post
    Shrug. Then we disagree. I'm glad the BNT's I have showed with (and the one's I worked with) don't charge fees like that. I would not show in a barn that did not give an out for emergencies. A show stall, I understand. Paying for shipping/fees for a show I did not go to. They can bite me.
    I would go one step further I would refuse the rest of the charges as well. Even if not an emergency. Some of us are called into work, have kids that become ill, ect.
    There is no way I will pay for servecies that I am not usesing if my horse is not on the grounds. The term hiway robery comes to mind. And people put up wit this?
    Friend of bar .ka



  8. #48
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    Sep. 2, 2005
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    Upstate NY
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    Quote Originally Posted by bumknees View Post
    I would go one step further I would refuse the rest of the charges as well. Even if not an emergency. Some of us are called into work, have kids that become ill, ect.
    There is no way I will pay for servecies that I am not usesing if my horse is not on the grounds. The term hiway robery comes to mind. And people put up wit this?
    I have yet to see a horse show entry form that did not say the stall fee was non-refundable. Who do you think should have to cover that, your trainer and the other people showing from your barn?
    It sucks that your schedule might change but in changing you have added a burden to others.



  9. #49
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    May. 11, 2004
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    Quote Originally Posted by trubandloki View Post
    I have yet to see a horse show entry form that did not say the stall fee was non-refundable. Who do you think should have to cover that, your trainer and the other people showing from your barn?
    It sucks that your schedule might change but in changing you have added a burden to others.
    Yes im sorry, I ment to say that I would pay my stall fee because I am comitted to that. Fingers got ahead of brain...
    Friend of bar .ka



  10. #50
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    Jun. 7, 2006
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    Why do you feel you are "committed" to you stall fee but not the rest of the charges?

    Pennywell, I have a two horse trailer. I charge $1 per mile for one horse on the trailer, and $.60 per horse per mile for two horses on the trailer. When you reserve the second slot on the trailer, the other customer's per mile charge goes down by $.40 (40%). I also plan on earning 20% more, and tell the third prison the trailer is full.

    So when you have a sudden emergency and don't want to pay for "services" you aren't using, that slot is still dedicated to you. Should the other customer's shipping rate go up by 40% because you had an emergency? Should my reimbursement go down by 50% so the other customer doesn't have to eat your emergency? What about you paying 40 cents a mile for the trip you didn't take so the other customer doesn't have to bear the cost of your emergency? What about paying for your full slot that you voluntarily reserved so no one else has to pay for your emergency?

    Why do you feel ok with your emergency biting everyone else in the wallet? Is the rest of the world your de facto insurance company? They can just suck it up?

    And of course if the trainer gets tired of ou canceling in the last minute and says, well fine then, everyone pays a buck a mile regardless, then you will complain why is it a buck a mile for one horse and two bucks for two horses, surely the second horse doesn't add that much expense, and additionally the other customers who didn't ever cancel will be paying the forty percent more rate no matter how many horses are on the trailer because someone who wasn't them kept screwing over the trainer's attempt to use the economies of scale to the clients' benefit.

    Really the entitlement and the lack of regard for others is astonishing.



  11. #51
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    May. 5, 2009
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    Quote Originally Posted by meupatdoes View Post
    Why do you feel you are "committed" to you stall fee but not the rest of the charges?

    Pennywell, I have a two horse trailer. I charge $1 per mile for one horse on the trailer, and $.60 per horse per mile for two horses on the trailer. When you reserve the second slot on the trailer, the other customer's per mile charge goes down by $.40 (40%). I also plan on earning 20% more, and tell the third prison the trailer is full.

    So when you have a sudden emergency and don't want to pay for "services" you aren't using, that slot is still dedicated to you. Should the other customer's shipping rate go up by 40% because you had an emergency? Should my reimbursement go down by 50% so the other customer doesn't have to eat your emergency? What about you paying 40 cents a mile for the trip you didn't take so the other customer doesn't have to bear the cost of your emergency? What about paying for your full slot that you voluntarily reserved so no one else has to pay for your emergency?

    Why do you feel ok with your emergency biting everyone else in the wallet? Is the rest of the world your de facto insurance company? They can just suck it up?
    I charge $1 per mile, so does my trainer. Period. A second horse does not get a break. No, I should not have to pay trainer's fees, shipping or day care if my horse does not go. We can disagree. I simply said I would not agree to such charges. There have been weekends where horses have not gone for one reason or another. <shrug>. I'm not paying a trainer for a day fee, a groom, or trailering if my horse it not there.
    Come to the dark side, we have cookies



  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pennywell Bay View Post
    I charge $1 per mile, so does my trainer. Period. A second horse does not get a break. No, I should not have to pay trainer's fees, shipping or day care if my horse does not go. We can disagree. I simply said I would not agree to such charges. There have been weekends where horses have not gone for one reason or another. <shrug>. I'm not paying a trainer for a day fee, a groom, or trailering if my horse it not there.
    So what's a situation where you KNOW the other boarder is paying 40% more because of your actions, you just figure, "oh we'll, guess my emergency sucks for them!"

    And the trainer who had counted on x income and possibly turned another person away ("sorry, this is a two horse, no room for a third") can just suck up your emergency too?

    It simply does not bother you that your actions are DIRECTLY impacting other people's bottom line who had nothing to do with your emergency?

    I missed a lesson once because my truck's starter went on the highway (thankfully no horses loaded yet). You bet your heinie I still paid for it. That trainer has a busy program and if not for me someone else would have taken and paid for that slot. My emergency was no reason for him to take a hit.

    How considerate a person do you really consider yourself if it fundamentally does not matter to you when your actions negatively impact others. You will walk right by that border that you screwed out of the multi horse discount and expect her to just suck it up? Give her a hearty, sportsmanly clap on the shoulder and say "Tough breaks, old sport!" Or just give her a "<shrug>"?
    There's SAYING you care about how you treat others and then there is actually DEMONSTRATING it when you make sure that your actions don't screw anyone else over.

    "oh we'll, I'mnot paying. Who cares if everyone else has to pay more/lose income they otherwise would have had. They should be more understanding of meeeeeeeeeee."



  13. #53
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    Sep. 2, 2005
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    I do not get the thought pattern that you know and will pay for your stall because that is a commitment but your trainer and your fellow boarders are not a commitment you are willing to pay for.

    If you are willing to pay for your stall, that you are not using, why are you not willing to pay for your portion of the stall split (for the tack and feed stalls)? How about your split of your trainer's expenses?



  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by trubandloki View Post
    I do not get the thought pattern that you know and will pay for your stall because that is a commitment but your trainer and your fellow boarders are not a commitment you are willing to pay for.

    If you are willing to pay for your stall, that you are not using, why are you not willing to pay for your portion of the stall split (for the tack and feed stalls)? How about your split of your trainer's expenses?
    Character is what you do even if it does not necessarily benefit you.



  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by trubandloki View Post
    I do not get the thought pattern that you know and will pay for your stall because that is a commitment but your trainer and your fellow boarders are not a commitment you are willing to pay for.

    If you are willing to pay for your stall, that you are not using, why are you not willing to pay for your portion of the stall split (for the tack and feed stalls)? How about your split of your trainer's expenses?
    Trainers expense? What expenes? He/she has no exese for ME my horse is at home he/she is teaching me nothing at the show or training my horse there either. Therfor has no expese for me/my horse there.

    My fellow competeors? I have no impact on them. They each pay for their stall as well. So they pay a bit more for tack stall, feed stall, etc. BUT they have an extra stall to use at no charce to them (mine). So it all works out in the end.
    And you cant say with a straight face and look me in the eyes that they would not use my stall some how. so it all works out n the end..
    Friend of bar .ka



  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by bumknees View Post
    Trainers expense? What expenes? He/she has no exese for ME my horse is at home he/she is teaching me nothing at the show or training my horse there either. Therfor has no expese for me/my horse there.

    My fellow competeors? I have no impact on them. They each pay for their stall as well. So they pay a bit more for tack stall, feed stall, etc. BUT they have an extra stall to use at no charce to them (mine). So it all works out in the end.
    And you cant say with a straight face and look me in the eyes that they would not use my stall some how. so it all works out n the end..
    What??!
    It all works out in the end?

    Are you aware that trainers charge the clients for their hotel charges? So if the hotel bill is $1000 for the week and five clients becomes four, EVERYONE ELSE pays $50 more. Guess that is just their gift to you.

    And on top EVERYONE ELSE pays $25 more for the tack and feed stall.

    And on top EVERYONE ELSE pays $50 more for groom's lodging for the week.

    But you feel fat and happy and perfectly fine because you know they are getting their 1/4 use of your extra stall, which they didn't need or choose to reserve and if they had chosen it would have been less expensive than $100+ a piece.

    Really astonishing how people behave when they are spending/costing OTHER PEOPLE'S money instead of their own. They are doing all of this because lord knows THEY don't want to pay, everyone else should just be good sports and pay for them.



  17. #57
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    Sep. 19, 2008
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    Quote Originally Posted by bumknees View Post
    Trainers expense? What expenes? He/she has no exese for ME my horse is at home he/she is teaching me nothing at the show or training my horse there either. Therfor has no expese for me/my horse there.

    My fellow competeors? I have no impact on them. They each pay for their stall as well. So they pay a bit more for tack stall, feed stall, etc. BUT they have an extra stall to use at no charce to them (mine). So it all works out in the end.
    And you cant say with a straight face and look me in the eyes that they would not use my stall some how. so it all works out n the end..
    Yes I can. If we've already figured out how many grooming/feed/tack stalls we need for x number of horses and you cancel last minute, we are only going to take x-1 of everything, therefore we need LESS space, and I assure you the last stall in the row would remain untouched.

    And you are being obtuse regarding the trainer. The trainer has no ADDITIONAL expenses, but they will now be divided by (x-1) client so again, it's your fellow barnmates you are burdening.
    Holy crap, how does Darwin keep missing you? ~Lauruffian



  18. #58
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    Aug. 4, 2010
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    Newtown, CT
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    If I can't make it to the show I still pay the fees I've accrued. If I've committed I stick to it. Why? It's my responsibility. When you pay for tickets to a (concert, play, etc) and then, suddenly, can't make it you still have to pay for those seats...even if you had an emergency and couldn't attend. That is life.



  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by trubandloki View Post
    I do not get the thought pattern that you know and will pay for your stall because that is a commitment but your trainer and your fellow boarders are not a commitment you are willing to pay for.

    If you are willing to pay for your stall, that you are not using, why are you not willing to pay for your portion of the stall split (for the tack and feed stalls)? How about your split of your trainer's expenses?
    First- to MUAD- my character is just fine. Ask anyone who works with me.

    As I stated, I keep my horses at home and the BNT's I have trained and worked with have never charged anything like this. I groom and trailer for myself. Maybe it is because our people don't call out, I have no idea. So the concept is foreign to me to be charged w/o a service provided. If your clients will pay it to you, more power to you. We have never been in a situation that warrants it.
    Come to the dark side, we have cookies



  20. #60
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    Dec. 4, 2002
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    My farm shows roughly twice per month with anywhere from 10 to 20 horses. The amount of administrative time it requires to take the circus on the road is significant. At this time, we don't charge any kind of "cancellation fee". The client is required to pay the horseshow scratch fee and the stall fee if we can't sell the stall to another client. Plans do change and we understand that. With the number of horses we have going, the splits are not that big a deal when one client backs out.

    In the past, I've had a problem client or two that were constantly late to sign up or would cancel at the last moment. When it was a problem, I sent out a notice to all the clients and instituted a "late fee" and a "cancellation fee". We work very hard to meet the show deadlines so that my clients avoid late fees from the show. In return, we expect them to sign up with sufficient time for us to do all the paperwork. The clientele I have now are all very respectful of our time, so we don't need the extra fees to encourage the proper behavior.

    I have found that if you lay everything out- fees, expectations, rules, regs, etc, good clients conform and make life easy and the job enjoyable. We avoid a lot of drama by being upfront and clear. I highly recommend that approach.



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