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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pennywell Bay View Post
    First- to MUAD- my character is just fine. Ask anyone who works with me.

    As I stated, I keep my horses at home and the BNT's I have trained and worked with have never charged anything like this. I groom and trailer for myself. Maybe it is because our people don't call out, I have no idea. So the concept is foreign to me to be charged w/o a service provided. If your clients will pay it to you, more power to you. We have never been in a situation that warrants it.
    Perhaps the people you work with would give you a great report.

    But maybe you would be careful when backing out of a shared hotel room in the last minute to still pay your share of it so they wouldn't have to pick up your slack, something which you're apparently unwilling do with your trainer's other customers.

    Character is what you do in real life, not what you claim on the Internet. If in real life you stick the other clients with bigger trainer hotel split and tack stall/feed stall split because in the last minute you back out, or leave the trainer with unearned income from a slot they could have given to somebody who would show up and pay, then that is your character.



  2. #62
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    Jan. 1, 2008
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    Quote Originally Posted by meupatdoes View Post
    So why charge an extra fee in the first place, if the grooms are already being paid by the customer's at home board package?

    Everyone always bends over backwards to explain why it is apparently so much more expensive to have the same exact grooms grooming the same exact horses at the show instead of at home, but apparently it all evens out.



    Or do you not charge day care fees at the shows because it all evens out and the same groom would have been doing the same work for the same horse at home and you pay him the same regardless anyway?
    Since it doesn't actually cost you any more, why charge day care?

    I have always balked at the idea of paying a $75 day care fee when the horse is already paying full board at his (empty) home stall and the SAME GROOM is getting paid the SAME to provide the horse with the SAME services he would have received at home. Good to know the groom sees none of that money.
    I've had it explained to me several ways but the one that makes sense to me is that the trainer is losing potential income from his or her home-based business (primarily lessons) and the day fee helps make up the difference. I'm okay with that, as long as the day fee is reasonable. I would also disagree that the groom is doing the same work at a show. There's a whole host of tasks at a show that are not done at home...taking out braids, having to groom/saddle the same horse several times a day, one or more daily baths, lunging, wrapping, etc. I really have no idea if my trainer is paying the grooms more at a show or not. That information is not shared with the clients...at least not that I'm aware of. I do know that my trainer does have to hire a couple of extra grooms per show to handle the increased duties and none of them ever puts a hand on a pitchfork. A stall cleaner/feeder/waterer is hired at each show.

    I have one horse that shows only on pro days, usually Wednesday and Thursday. I pay a pro-rated day fee on the days he doesn't show.

    I would agree that some of the day fees I hear about are a bit outrageous. But I've never sat down and done the math. I wouldn't offer an opinion without seeing the invoices for the actual cost of services. With some of the barn set ups I've seen at shows, it's not surprising that the costs are through the roof.
    Fan of the Swedish Chef



  3. #63
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    Jul. 22, 2008
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    I'm with those who would be irritated if their trainer charged them for services when they did not show because of an emergency or injury. Obviously you have to pay for your stall, and I could see maybe paying something for the trailering if space was at a premium, but I would not be happy paying trainer or daycare fees or stall or hotel splits.

    At the same time I expect to (and do) pay splits based upon how many are actually at the show. But then I've never backed out from a show at the last minute. If anything I've been on the other side. Still, I don't resent others who have increased my bill because their horse had an abscess (or worse) or they themselves were injured. Usually I'm just thankful that we've made it to the show apparently sound.

    I don't keep my horses with my trainer and haul my own and do my own entries. I also do my own grooming and stall cleaning and so don't pay for day care, but I do stable with my trainer and use the grooming and feed and decoration stalls and pay my portion of those.

    Stall splits are usually done by the show office, so you have to wonder if the trainers are making money on these expenses if they're billing you separately for them.

    I guess I'm lucky because my trainer tries to keep our costs down and so does not charge anything outrageous for hotel splits and includes her own horses when doing the stall splits, so one person there or not is not going to make a huge difference in my bill, and I get a lot more value out of the grooming stall when there are less people. She also hasn't charged me training fees for the days I couldn't show when we had to scratch because of lameness issues.

    Per diem training fees do vary depending on how many are at the show, but I just expect that training is going to be more expensive at some shows than others (and it's not that much difference), and I usually get more attention if less people are there so it's probably worth the extra money. Do I expect a partial refund when my trainer can't watch me hack because she needs to be at the other ring with another client (and no I would not hold up the ring for that)?

    Showing is extremely expensive and I do it on a very limited budget and carefully plan what shows I'm going to do. Still I don't usually make my decisions based on how many are at the show and how much the stall splits are going to be. I pick the shows I enjoy and don't usually know how many are going to be there until I arrive.

    Of course, if a client is backing out at the last minute for frivolous reasons or is making a habit of it, then the trainer needs to handle that differently.



  4. #64
    Join Date
    Dec. 22, 2000
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    NY
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    I think people in the horse business are free to set up their business model as they see fit, and as long as they are up front and clear about it, customers can choose to patronize them, or go elsewhere. Some people offer full groom service, some don't, some people hire extra help for shows, some don't, etc. That's all fine. Different strokes for different folks.

    Quote Originally Posted by findeight View Post

    However another time, I was going to go to a smaller A show a 3 hour drive away Fri Sat Sun. The horses were going up with the 6 horse trailer Thursday afternoon, coming home Sunday nite taking one Pro groom and one WS plus the assistant trainer for 6 horses total plus 2 stalls (one groom stall, one tack/feed/bedding). Basically 5 owners of the 6 horses going to split everything 6 ways.

    I swear, the frigging evening before leaving, Wednesday, the one kid with 2 Ponies came up with some bad grades at middle school and, as a punishment? Her and her 2 Ponies had to stay home, and they did not share that until they were literally loading the trunks and Ponies. That made it considerably more expensive for the 4 remaining owners and the barn lost revenue on those reduced lessons. It inspired a barn policy regarding last minute cancellations for non emergency reasons. IIRC it was they had to have 6 sign up to go and 7 days out, you were going to be charged whether you went or not unless somebody got hurt or seriously ill.
    This, however, would make me crazy. There is a difference between an actual emergency, be it medical for a person or veterinary for a horse, and somebody who just arbitrarily decides to back out on a commitment. In this case, if the kid's parents wanted to throw away their own stall/entry money to teach Poopsie a lesson, that was certainly their decision. But to expect the other customers to each pay more expense/split money for Poopsie's life lesson? No, no, no. Very wrong.



  5. #65
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    May. 5, 2009
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    Location: Indiana, but my heart is in Zone II
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    Quote Originally Posted by meupatdoes View Post
    Perhaps the people you work with would give you a great report.

    But maybe you would be careful when backing out of a shared hotel room in the last minute to still pay your share of it so they wouldn't have to pick up your slack, something which you're apparently unwilling do with your trainer's other customers.

    Character is what you do in real life, not what you claim on the Internet. If in real life you stick the other clients with bigger trainer hotel split and tack stall/feed stall split because in the last minute you back out, or leave the trainer with unearned income from a slot they could have given to somebody who would show up and pay, then that is your character.
    As stated, that is not my trainer's policy. We rarely have people back out. I have never had to back out of a show personally.

    Don't attack my character, you have no idea about me.

    I guess my trainer and the people I have worked for just have never gotten hosed enough by their customers to enact such a requirement (like the kids getting grounded loading up for a show). Maybe it is less of an issue showing at the big shows, and more at the mid-level. I have no clue.
    EAY- totally agree with your post. That is my situation to a T, except during baby season, I'm the help, not an owner.
    Come to the dark side, we have cookies



  6. #66
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    May. 11, 2004
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    2,355

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    Quote Originally Posted by meupatdoes View Post
    What??!
    It all works out in the end?

    Are you aware that trainers charge the clients for their hotel charges? So if the hotel bill is $1000 for the week and five clients becomes four, EVERYONE ELSE pays $50 more. Guess that is just their gift to you.

    And on top EVERYONE ELSE pays $25 more for the tack and feed stall.

    And on top EVERYONE ELSE pays $50 more for groom's lodging for the week.

    But you feel fat and happy and perfectly fine because you know they are getting their 1/4 use of your extra stall, which they didn't need or choose to reserve and if they had chosen it would have been less expensive than $100+ a piece.

    Really astonishing how people behave when they are spending/costing OTHER PEOPLE'S money instead of their own. They are doing all of this because lord knows THEY don't want to pay, everyone else should just be good sports and pay for them.

    Then it is time for trainer to get a dose of reality and stay at a cheaper motel.1000$ for a week is a bit outragus(sp). Try 200 or 300$.

    Then dont use the groom do the show your self. No NEEDS to use a groom. Do it your self and save the 50$. It wont kill you.

    They would use my stall becaise it is there and for what ever reason I could not come. A legit reason you seem to forget not a wil nilly one. You know something called into work(happens you know in some liines of work), sick kid, sick parent( dieing ).
    Friend of bar .ka



  7. #67
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    May. 26, 2005
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    At many show barns, taking care of your own horse at a horse show is not an option. Just sayin'.



  8. #68
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    Jun. 7, 2006
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    Quote Originally Posted by bumknees View Post
    Then it is time for trainer to get a dose of reality and stay at a cheaper motel.1000$ for a week is a bit outragus(sp). Try 200 or 300$.

    Then dont use the groom do the show your self. No NEEDS to use a groom. Do it your self and save the 50$. It wont kill you.

    They would use my stall becaise it is there and for what ever reason I could not come. A legit reason you seem to forget not a wil nilly one. You know something called into work(happens you know in some liines of work), sick kid, sick parent( dieing ).
    What planet do you live on?

    $200 for 5-6 nights at a hotel? Where do you put your trainer for $35 a night???? Even the most run of the mill hotel a good distance from the horseshow at Devon was $200 a night.

    And the OTHER CUSTOMERS who may be coming in from THEIR jobs to ride their classes care if you disappearing last minute means their groom fees go up. I guess YOUR work is so important that you just skip the whole show, they still come but need to pay more for the groom that they need because they can't be at the show from sunup to sundown around their work schedule.


    Based on your comments I don't think you have actually been on the road with any kind of regularly competing A-circuit program. Do you even leave your own town since apparently in your universe a hotel room costs <$40 a night??

    Here's an idea: when you make a commitment to do something, follow through or at the very least make sure no one else in inconvenienced or out extra money due to YOUR last minute change in plans. You wouldn't want your fees to go up because someone else decided not to show up, so don't do it to other people.

    "Do unto others" is nice in theory I guess but when it comes down to it you think YOUR schedule and YOUR emergency is more important than being reliable and sticking to the commitment you made with everyone else.



  9. #69
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    May. 11, 2004
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    Quote Originally Posted by meupatdoes View Post
    What planet do you live on?

    $200 for 5-6 nights at a hotel? Where do you put your trainer for $35 a night???? Even the most run of the mill hotel a good distance from the horseshow at Devon was $200 a night.

    And the OTHER CUSTOMERS who may be coming in from THEIR jobs to ride their classes care if you disappearing last minute means their groom fees go up. I guess YOUR work is so important that you just skip the whole show, they still come but need to pay more for the groom that they need because they can't be at the show from sunup to sundown around their work schedule.


    Based on your comments I don't think you have actually been on the road with any kind of regularly competing A-circuit program. Do you even leave your own town since apparently in your universe a hotel room costs <$40 a night??

    Here's an idea: when you make a commitment to do something, follow through or at the very least make sure no one else in inconvenienced or out extra money due to YOUR last minute change in plans. You wouldn't want your fees to go up because someone else decided not to show up, so don't do it to other people.

    "Do unto others" is nice in theory I guess but when it comes down to it you think YOUR schedule and YOUR emergency is more important than being reliable and sticking to the commitment you made with everyone else.
    So trainer has to go a bit out further. to a less popular motel. IE motel 6. where they dont have room service.

    MMmm ever hear of Drs,or Natioal Guard,or other Military, etc who are called into work after asking for those days off? And children dont get sick on time schedules. And parents do decide to go into hositals to die when it is convient for you. I amglad that other people can drive from work daily or when needed to go to a show. But sometimes LIFE doesnt allow that to happen.
    And seeing as it is MY JOB that PAYS for MY HOBBY. if my BOSS decides that I have to work instead of haveing those days off as requested. Your damn straight I'll be working instead of going to the show. OR I will be lucky to be able to afford dobbin let alone showing. And the other competors are just going to have to live with my decission.


    As for me never going on the road. Yes I have. But my trainer never thought to stay at 1000$ week motels. Even at Devon. Maybe at the Hamptons where we had no other options unless we wanted to stay in New Jersey witch was a bit far... There are other options if clients say no more living this way you will go here insted there. It is up to the clients to say no

    I do not pay for grooms so that would not be problem for me. I do my horse my self. I dont pay for braiders either.

    feed and tack why bitch about using them and paying for them. if one has to pay bit more because someone has a ligit reason for not being there SO WHAT or are you going to cry about it. Unless you do not use it then do not pay for it.

    there are options to everything that has been said here.
    1) dont bring/hire grooms
    2) dont allow trainers to stay in top notch/expensive hoels
    3)dont have both/either tack/feed stalls
    just say no. keep tack in car/hotel.
    groom in horses stall.
    etc....
    Friend of bar .ka



  10. #70
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    Sep. 2, 2005
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    Upstate NY
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    I think you miss that some things are not a choice if you want to show with a specific trainer.

    I never kept my tack in the tack stall and I brought my own feed and hay and I kept it in my trailer.
    I still had to pay the tack room and feed room split. It was just part of being part of the barn.
    I do not think my trainer ever asked what hotel I wanted him to stay at. And with the price of fuel I doubt it will save you much having them at a hotel really far away.
    We did not have grooms so that was not an issue.

    I doubt anyone is saying you have a choice when you are called into work or not. The choice is if you feel it is appropriate to visit your issue onto your fellow barn mates. You clearly think it is, others feel it is not.



  11. #71
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    Dec. 4, 2002
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    Alpharetta, GA
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    I wouldn't work for clients that demanded I stay in gross, cheap hotels. We are conscious of costs and are careful about the rates, even asking for discounts. However, we need to be close to the show in case of an emergency. Our grooms stay on site in a camper (which usually comes out cheaper than a hotel room) and we want to be close at hand when the horses are away from home.

    And you know what? I require a clean, comfortable room in a safe area, preferably a known chain. We don't charge a perdiem for food so I like a place with a nice breakfast if we don't miss out because we have to leave super early. Sheesh- not every trainer is out to rip you off.

    I can see a steep hotel bill in certain areas of the country when the horses have to arrive on Tues.



  12. #72
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    Aug. 27, 2008
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    I am definitely on of those people on a budget and it really sucks when a horse gets hurt right before a show but I can't imagine screwing over my barnmates because my horse went lame. Even when you don't have grooms which sometimes we don't need there are still a lot of split fees that are now going up for my friends. As someone on a budget I would be really upset if a week before a show my bill for the weekend just went up $200.00. I would feel bad that my trainer is losing income. I can understand how some people would say that's just the cost of doing business as things do come up. I don't agree with that but I can see that argument being made. I just can't comprehend wanting to burden your barnmates though.



  13. #73
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    Jun. 7, 2006
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    Quote Originally Posted by bumknees View Post
    So trainer has to go a bit out further. to a less popular motel. IE motel 6. where they dont have room service.

    MMmm ever hear of Drs,or Natioal Guard,or other Military, etc who are called into work after asking for those days off? And children dont get sick on time schedules. And parents do decide to go into hositals to die when it is convient for you. I amglad that other people can drive from work daily or when needed to go to a show. But sometimes LIFE doesnt allow that to happen.
    And seeing as it is MY JOB that PAYS for MY HOBBY. if my BOSS decides that I have to work instead of haveing those days off as requested. Your damn straight I'll be working instead of going to the show. OR I will be lucky to be able to afford dobbin let alone showing. And the other competors are just going to have to live with my decission.


    As for me never going on the road. Yes I have. But my trainer never thought to stay at 1000$ week motels. Even at Devon. Maybe at the Hamptons where we had no other options unless we wanted to stay in New Jersey witch was a bit far... There are other options if clients say no more living this way you will go here insted there. It is up to the clients to say no

    I do not pay for grooms so that would not be problem for me. I do my horse my self. I dont pay for braiders either.

    feed and tack why bitch about using them and paying for them. if one has to pay bit more because someone has a ligit reason for not being there SO WHAT or are you going to cry about it. Unless you do not use it then do not pay for it.

    there are options to everything that has been said here.
    1) dont bring/hire grooms
    2) dont allow trainers to stay in top notch/expensive hoels
    3)dont have both/either tack/feed stalls
    just say no. keep tack in car/hotel.
    groom in horses stall.
    etc....
    You can still go to work when you get called out.
    AND STILL PAY FOR YOUR SHARE OF THE HORSESHOW YOU RESERVED.

    When you can't ride your horse four times a week because work was busy that week, do you ask your trainer for a board reduction? No, you committed to paying board whether you get to ride your horse or not.

    If you sign up for a clinic and last minute your horse gets an abscess, you still have to pay for your slot unless you can find a replacement.

    If you sign up for a lesson and last minute work calls you, you still have to pay for the slot that your trainer reserved. It is not your trainer's fault you picked a job with unpredictable requirements.

    This is how considerate people behave. ALL THE TIME, not just when they find it convenient. Sure it is cost-effective for your to dump your scheduling issues on everyone else's dime but it is also OBNOXIOUS.

    And I would like to know what hotel you stayed at for $35 a night in Wayne, PA during the horse show. Seriously. I personally would not expect my trainer to sleep in the bushes under a tarp, but maybe that's just how you roll.

    So we can clarify how hotels work in the 21st century, a "top notch, expensive hotel" is roughly $500 per night if you stay in the cheapest rooms and wisely skip the four-digits-a-night oceanside suites. See: the St. Regis in NYC, the Breakers or the Brazilian Court in Palm Beach, or a Peninsula hotel pretty much anywhere.

    Your trainer staying in a $170 a night Hilton Garden Inn or whatever is not exactly living it up.



  14. #74
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    Jun. 7, 2006
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jsalem View Post
    I wouldn't work for clients that demanded I stay in gross, cheap hotels.
    I dont think a $35 a night hotel even exists anymore.
    I doubt you could pitch a tent at a KOA campground for that.



  15. #75
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    Aug. 5, 2003
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    924

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    And herein are some reasons why H/J shows are so expensive. Eventers will camp out in tents and campers. Stable off site and ship in for classes and interestingly - many event trainers ( at least where I live) do not charge day fees. Sometimes they dont even attend events - the riders (gasp ) get the job done on their own. Not saying one is better than the other but i know I hate paying splits especially for a grooming stall when some other client is using it just when my horse needs it. More than once I have taken a green horse home early and returned to show to find some one else's horse in my stall. No offer of $ either. And it was a well known trainer who shoved horse in stall. Splits with a big barn are not so bad but the grooming stall cost seem to be constant as the number of stalls just increases with the number of horses.



  16. #76
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    Sep. 2, 2005
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    Upstate NY
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dinah-do View Post
    Eventers will camp out in tents and campers.
    There are hunter people who camp too, it is not an eventer only thing. There are even hunter trainers who bring a camper to shows, but you still have to pay for the camper spot.

    My trainer never charged (me at least) a day fee. I did all my own work. Like eventing, there is every range of fees...



  17. #77
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    Oct. 7, 2010
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    I have been fortunate that no one has backed out of a show I have signed up to attend, and I honestly don't know if my trainer has a policy for this. If I were in that circumstance or even one of the other clients, I would expect the person cancelling to pay for the stall and and stall splits. I think it would depend on how a barn's fee schedule works, as to whether a person would be expected to pay grooming, training, shipping, and other fees if they canceled. I can definitely understand them covering their share of expenses, if the rate is based on a volume discount and/or it is spelled out ahead of time. At the same time, I would hope the trainer (provided they have enough notice) would be able to scale back on things like the number of grooms, bales of hay, etc. so they don't have to charge their customers for unnecessary expenses.

    As to the cost of hotel rooms. I have a hard time requiring my trainer to stay at far away, dirty, etc. hotels so I can save $$. Trainers, grooms, etc. are business professionals on a business trip who put in long, hard days, who should be able to quickly get to a show in the event of an emergency. Unless they themselves choose otherwise, they should stay at safe, clean and relatively close locations. I am not advocating they stay at luxury hotels, but in many show locations, I have found that decent hotels cost between $100-200 a night.

    I agree that showing is expensive for everyone. While it stinks paying for services we aren't using, if we have reason to back out at the last minute (whether for "legitimate" or "frivilous" reasons), we should be considerate of those who were counting on us to keep their costs affordable as well.



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