[KurPlexed]

Horse is confirmed first.

[KurPlexed]

When I say green on green I'm referring to: Horse has never done collected work neither has rider.

[mbm]

Nomiomi - i am not trying to be rude, but really since you haven't trained what we are talking about how can you know? its great that you are enthusiastic in your commenting - but sometimes you say things that will really confuse someone or make them think their trainer is not working them correctly - when in fact it is just that you have not done what you are describing so you dont understand the differences....

in other words: there is a big difference between book learning and actually doing it.....
.

[mbm]

Kurplexed - you are fine.... you are on a learning curve and learning is challenging! things wont be perfect - but keep showing up and it will get better! i promise!

[NOMIOMI1]

MBM this board is well aware of your own skill level so lets not go there.

I have not trained a bunch of horses through 2nd that is correct but I have ridden comfirmed horses all the way up the levels and watched their training enough to be part of this discussion.

[mbm]

MBM this board is well aware of your own skill level so lets not go there.

my skill level? i will happy post a video of me riding so folks can see who i am - i have nothing to hide nor do i represent myself as something other than who i am.....

my skill level is an ammie who is learning how to train..... i don't present myself as an expert or a trainer or anything.... i also know i have a long way to go still...

and one of the MOST important things i have learned over the years - is that training is not the same as the goal..... and if a rider thinks it is (i used to) then they will be stuck until such time they let go of that idea.

I have not trained a bunch of horses through 2nd that is correct but I have ridden comfirmed horses all the way up the levels and watched their training enough to be part of this discussion.

right, and that is exactly what i said - it is clear from your comments that you have not trained stuff because you have a misguided idea of the process... that is fine - probably lots of folks have the same misunderstood idea - i know i did - i am just trying to pass along something i learned the hard way....

[KurPlexed]

MBM: I'm holding you to that promise!! lol Thanks for understanding where I'm coming from.

Naomi: Watching someone bring a horse up is not the same as bringing a horse up. If I were to watch my trainer do it there would be NO bucking or rearing. They the the tact and experience I don't possess YET. : ) No shame in admitting that nor admitting that working a horse through the tension to reach the collection that I'm asking for can be a little intimidating especially on a young fresh big horse.

[NOMIOMI1]

I said I have not but I am currently attempting to My reason for posting on this thread was that I am in the same boat but was not agreeing on the acting out issues was all (shrug).

Its not as big as all this is becoming.

My offer is no less than another ammys offer to tell you how it should be done just keep that in mind

[Heinz 57]

This!!! This is where I am. It's a little unnerving. I wish I had a tiny horse to learn on. lol My guy is 17h and big. He gets confused and tries but he's just not sure what I'm asking. I have 100% confidence that we will get it but in the meantime I need to hang on. : )

You are most certainly not alone in this. But will become a better rider for it. I have a big boy, 17.2+ - and he's a big mover. We've recently made some great progress and I can almost hear him saying 'it's about dang time you figured this out, lady!'. He's green to the work as well, but when I ride for correctness...he just falls into place with a happy sigh. I have no doubt that *I* am the one that will be holding us back.

[KurPlexed]

I said I have not but I am currently attempting to My reason for posting on this thread was that I am in the same boat but was not agreeing on the acting out issues was all (shrug).


I don't consider it acting out. For example: I have a Doberman who knows about 15 tricks. When I stand in front of her with a treat and don't say a word she goes through all the tricks trying to figure out what is going to yield her the treat. It's the same with my horse. I am asking a question and he's gong through all the possibilities of what I may "want". He has no idea that rearing is not a part of a dressage test. He's not trying to get me off he's just trying to understand. That's why he is rearing, he doesn't understand. He's not tense or nervous.



My offer is no less than another ammys offer to tell you how it should be done just keep that in mind

Thank you. I'd have to say here if you've done it and come out the other end than yes you would have some insight as to how "it should be done" but until you've done it you can only really add what has helped or hasn't for your specific case and in my case there was some rears and a couple bucks. Most importantly there was power which I need to become accustomed to so I don't stifle it.

I do appreciate everyone's input I just happen to disagree with your comment that bringing a horse up will always be free from errors.

Sorry I don't know how to work the quote thing so part of my reply is in the quote section.

[NOMIOMI1]

I dont think I said error free.

Its fine. Really. The internet cannot help train collection as we all know and Im sure you are working with a trainer

[goodpony]

I do appreciate everyone's input I just happen to disagree with your comment that bringing a horse up will always be free from errors.

It wasnt untill I allowed myself to make mistakes that we made any progress at all. Im still making mistakes---but they are not the same ones.


I had a very EXTREMELY electric ride today--it was a bit breezy causing a lot of shifting shadows in the tree leaves and something was going on at my neighbors house that really had my guy up on his toes. Happy to say 'nothing' happened but I quit just a little early as I was concerned he might hurt himself carrying the FRAME he put himself into and the trouble I was having keeping his attention on me. He was wanting to get passagey/tense in his trot work--not like him at all. I also have the added bonus of being almost completely deaf so it was extremely disconcerting not being able to figure out what was causing his distress----there was definitely SOMETHING going on over there that had his panties knotted up tight. When he is feeling explosive like today--I go back to basics---things that are easy for him to digest/understand and I try to stay relaxed-supple-balanced and not let myself get sucked into 'his distractions'.

that being said---today was about the most uphill ride I EVER had and it was intimidating wondering if he was going to scoot/explode---but we survived and nothing bad happened -SCORE. And I discovered that I could control his rhythm by softening my seat and hands--letting go of my own internal fears. My guy might not be big--but he is STRONG, Powerful and super Athletic and if he was an evil horse......thankfully, he is not is all I can say.

[KurPlexed]

That's a really good point. The only time I've ever really felt the energy I'm feeling now was out of tension (in the woods or when he spots something scary) so now when I feel it I immediately relate it to "oh, something is going on" rather than this is just controlled energy and not tension or a potential explosion. Like I said earlier I guess I'm just learning to trust him and let it happen.

ETA it's not the same feeling (the scared tense horse vs what I'm feeling during collection) it's just that's they way my brain in interpreting it...for now.

[snow horse]

I personally see two big leaps - Second Level to Third Level and then Intermediaire I to Intermediaire II.

Almost any breed and size (funky confirmation or soundness aside) can learn to perform the movements and requirements of Training through Second Level dressage. When you add the required engagement and uphill carriage, now confirmation comes a coefficient to the complete package and many horses top out at Second Level.

The difference between I1 and I2 is huge and I1 becomes the next ceiling many FEI horses hit. If you horse can do clean successful 2's, it's generally accepted that they can learn the 1's. It's the overall high level of collection (piaffe, passage, pirouettes included here) and full extension requirements that are often the tipping points between a sound I1 horse and an unsound GP horse.

I think the biggest thing that got missed my first trip up the ladder was a complete understanding of engagement and self-carriage.

[mbm]

Goodpony - you almost described my ride yesterday to a "T" - of course with my pony he is just 4 so we are not requiring 2nd level work yet from him - but he was giving me the most power he ever has - he was up in front, using his hind end ... if this is a taste of what is to come i think i will have a blast with him

of course i ride in a very very scary arena - completely surrounded by trees and shrubs so you cant see out - and there are monsters in the bushes! (and that is true sometimes deer come bounding out!)

my trainer kept saying " if he is looking there he isnt working hard enough nor paying attention to you..... keep him focused on you - dont let him out - you need to trust him for him to trust you "

it ended up being one of "those" rides that i will remember for a while

Your Jack is a really nice boy - you must be very happy with him.

[JLR1]

When I say green on green I'm referring to: Horse has never done collected work neither has rider.

I'm in the green horse/rider to second level and above also. My experiences are going to be far different than several of the "professional amateurs" on this board who have grown up riding their whole lives, owned a myriad of horses on which to learn, and have the sheer determination to march their horses up the levels.

For those of us new to collection there will be a learning curve for the "feel" of what collection is and isn't. I'm not willing to turn the reins over to a trainer just yet, so progress is slower than what the experienced ammies could accomplish....so be it.

[KurPlexed]

I think the biggest thing that got missed my first trip up the ladder was a complete understanding of engagement and self-carriage.

I am trying to avoid not understanding it enough. That's why I'm trying to take my time and do it correctly. It's so hard when you've never felt some of the things you start to feel. To me looking at upper level horses you just can't appreciate the power that's in there until you sit on it and I've never sat on it.

[BrokenArrow]

You don't have to sit the trot in 1st...

I so far am finding the only big problem we have moving to 2nd is my sprained back, and recent discovery that working on collected gaits means a week off riding due to massive back pain. Time will heal that, though. But our collection is simply coming out of all the work and exercises we've done. Maybe it has to do with natural talent to collect in a horse? We had to have collected trot there before being able to do what I feel is a sufficient lengthening for 1st because his talent is in collection, and he needed to build carrying strength to be able to lengthen properly.

Similarly - we're schooling canter pirouettes, as he's ready for them and if I ride them properly 1/2 pirouettes are super easy for him. But we need the strength to have discernible mediums and extensions which happen immediately rather than which slowly develop across a diagonal.

My mistake. I'm not in the US and I had thought your 1st level was equilivant to our Novice, which is all sitting trot except for lengthens.

Sorry to go back off topic a bit.

[Heinz 57]

My mistake. I'm not in the US and I had thought your 1st level was equilivant to our Novice, which is all sitting trot except for lengthens.

Sorry to go back off topic a bit.

It did at one point - posting in First level has only become allowed very recently, in the last few years. I remember back when I was a kid showing First level, tests 3 and 4 (or was it just 4?) called for the trot lengthenings to be sat as well!

Much better (rider) preparation for the next level, IMO.

[netg]

I actually prefer the posting trot being allowed at first, because I think many horses aren't ready for you to sit working gaits until after they develop collected gaits just for the strength of their topline.


We're really still only in first because of behavior issues, not ability to collect - and it has only become as my horse has gotten strong that I have felt like my sitting trot can enhance his working trot where before he seemed like he wasn't ready for working trot sitting.

Funny enough, the sprained back has somehow made sitting the trot easier... and it's only collecting which I have trouble doing. Bizarre.