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  1. #121
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    Mar. 24, 2012
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    Talking

    DISCLAIMER: All sphincter knots are the responsibility of the reader.
    I think this is a clear example of 'projection", if this thread is any indication.



  2. #122
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    Apr. 23, 1999
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    Rosehill, TX
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    Quote Originally Posted by CenterlineScores View Post
    Just... wow.

    So, I've had some time to think about this a little bit more and it seems that many of you have reached the same conclusion.

    We are all talking about the same set of underlying public data here. Whether that is displayed: at the show, in a PDF on the show's website, on USEF.org, on USDF.org, on chronofhorse.com, in the magazine, etc.

    In the same way that Google crawls the public web and correlates and collates and aggregates other public data, we do the same thing for the public dressage scores.

    HOWEVER, What makes CenterlineScores.com VALUABLE to Riders, Trainers, Horse owners and potential horse owners IS NOT THE DATA. It is just a raw materials starting point because (as many have said, THE DATA HAVE BEEN AVAILABLE FOR over 10 years online!) CenterlineScores.com just takes those raw data points and puts them together in a particularly useful and usable way. USDF could have done this VERY. SAME. THING. -- A DECADE AGO. They didn't. We didn't just build a BETTER mousetrap. We INVENTED it.

    It took me just over 3 days to design, build and populate the initial database with the first raw public data points (scores from 2003-2010).

    It took me ANOTHER 8 MONTHS to do the thinking, design and coding necessary to build and prepare the website for launch last year.

    Will I try to get some revenue out of the site at some point in the future? Yes. But let's be clear. If I ever do make any money, it will ONLY be because of a ton of hard work and my own particular brand of crazy that causes me to:
    • Wake at 4 am most days to write code
    • Personally answer every email sent within 24 hours of receiving it
    • Spend hours researching and correcting errors in the USDF data
    • Manually review test sheets sent in by riders who want to add rides that were missing from the USDF data
    • Brainstorm and design new features
    • Think about analyses that can/should be done
    • Monitor the hardware & software

    .. and a thousand other things it takes to make this happen.. all while maintaining a full-time job and trying to support my family and my wife's Dressage training & showing.

    At the end of the day, all of this effort will not be (and never has been) about me getting rich on the back of the USDF. What I was trying to do is to bring in a tiny little bit of accountability and transparency, make it easier for people to research horses and riders, and to help broaden this sport that we all love.

    Whenever I consider adding a new feature or view of the data, one of the decision criteria is this:

    Will it discourage people from doing recognized shows with licensed judges?
    If it does. I don't add it. As someone else said earlier...



    There can be no doubt that CenterlineScores.com has CHANGED US dressage at the national (vs. FEI) levels. People look for and evaluate trainers, riders and horses in a completely different way now. On balance, that's a VERY, VERY good thing.

    The Bottom line is:

    Locking the data up behind a password does nothing to promote or improve accountability for the sport of Dressage.
    just to add my voice to those attesting to the very quick responses by Jay to corrections/inquiries
    Nothing says "I love you" like a tractor. (Clydejumper)

    The reports states, “Elizabeth reported that she accidently put down this pony, ........, at the show.”



  3. #123
    Join Date
    Jan. 13, 2003
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    Where's Ed Norton when you really need him?

    Wait ...maybe he has the pony!
    Summit Sporthorses Ltd. Inc.
    "Breeding Competition Partners & Lifelong Friends"



  4. #124
    Join Date
    Apr. 23, 1999
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    Rosehill, TX
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velvet View Post
    ...My position has been, and will continue to be, that this DATABASE that they own and have compiled belongs to them. They do not have to share that information with anyone other than members VIA THEIR DATABASE. They own the servers, they own the database structure (all the tables, etc.) and they have PAID employees to enter that data into said database.......
    pretty sure that Show Secretaries enter the data then transmit to USEF and USDF
    Nothing says "I love you" like a tractor. (Clydejumper)

    The reports states, “Elizabeth reported that she accidently put down this pony, ........, at the show.”



  5. #125
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    Chapel Hill, NC
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    SG, this is true. There is a form of a particular format that must be sent, and my feeling is it just populates their database with THE PUBLIC DATA relatively automatically (hence needing a particular format).

    The argument has become tedious!!!
    From now on, ponyfixer, i'll include foot note references.



  6. #126
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    Personally, I think it should become mandatory that all Show Secretaries, TDs and Scribes should be required to use small ponies as 'chairs', and all the running around should be on said small ponies.



  7. #127
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    Jan. 12, 2000
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    Quote Originally Posted by AllWeatherGal View Post
    Uhh ... no. The INSTANCE of the data is like the INSTANCE of the pony. We are not widely cloning ponies so, generally, there's only one instance of each.

    There may be many instances of each piece of datum held in the USDF database and the USDF does not hold exclusive rights to each and every one of them.

    carry on ...
    Data is not free like air. Data is created/generated by people. They choose to make it free or not.

    In this case, the pony is a clone and the pony has been taken by USDF and they now have the right to do what they want with that pony. They can keep him in their back yard or share him with the public. If they are keeping him private, then he's private and you have no RIGHT to come and use/access the pony. They have the RIGHT to refuse you access to the pony or charge you for access to the pony. The pony is on their property and behind their fences (firewalls, etc.).

    All of you screaming about rights are talking about copywrite protection. This is a right to access the data that the USDF is using in their environment/network. You have no RIGHT that you can demand to access that data for free in their environment. It's that SIMPLE.

    Yes, you have access to the data currently in another location. But ask yourself--is that truly free? Aren't they being paid by shows to publish it? It's never truly free.
    "Relinquish your whip!!"



  8. #128
    DownYonder is offline Schoolmaster Premium Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velvet View Post
    Data is not free like air. Data is created/generated by people. They choose to make it free or not.
    So by your argument, does that mean FoxVillage actually owns the data? Oh, wait - they didn't create it, either. The show organizers created the data. Or did they? Was it actually created by the scorers who scored the tests? What about the judges who gave the scores? Or the scribes who wrote it down?

    This could get complicated, folks!



  9. #129
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    Gee - the GMO's could make themselves some dough and sell copies of the results they send to the USDF. After all they are the repository of all the original results.
    Does this mean there is a pony for every GMO?

    This may require Ralph, Alice, Ed and Trixie to be USDF members!
    Summit Sporthorses Ltd. Inc.
    "Breeding Competition Partners & Lifelong Friends"



  10. #130
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    Does that mean FoxVillage actually owns the data?

    They have the right to do whatever they want with the data (unless contractually obligated to make it free). They can lock it down or provide it to people on the internet for a fee or at no expense.

    The show organizers created the data. Or did they? Yes, they generate the data, but they have an obligation to provide that data to the USEF and to the participants, based on show policies.


    Was it actually created by the scorers who scored the tests? What about the judges who gave the scores? Or the scribes who wrote it down? Since these people are paid or volunteers, they do not own that data. They are providing a service that is either paid or free, and that data then belongs to show management (and the participants per about stated agreement).

    It's really not that difficult.
    "Relinquish your whip!!"



  11. #131
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    Velvet, I really do not understand what your point is.

    All scores are kept a secret by USDF/USEF except for dues paying members.

    What about people selling 'dressage' horses. Only USDF/USEF members can access the records on the horse for sale???



  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by BaroquePony View Post
    Velvet, I really do not understand what your point is.

    All scores are kept a secret by USDF/USEF except for dues paying members.

    What about people selling 'dressage' horses. Only USDF/USEF members can access the records on the horse for sale???
    My point has been made again, and again, and again out here.

    My last comment was to a specific group of questions.

    It's all out here. You can read it. I've even tried to give you an example that I thought most horse people could relate to.



    Off to play with ponies. I've said my piece (repeatedly). If you're not seeing it, you'll never see it. That's okay. I can live with that.
    "Relinquish your whip!!"



  13. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by BaroquePony View Post
    What about people selling 'dressage' horses. Only USDF/USEF members can access the records on the horse for sale???
    True, at least for free and official USDF records.

    Until now you had to pay for historical records - and Jay said in an earlier post that he, too, paid for historical records in situations where folks thought centerlinescores had the wrong info but they matched the USDF.

    I think using Jay's expertise the USDF could ake themselves much more transparent, and probably make award giving MUCH easier. I still stand by their right to choose to lock their database if they so wish, but really do think a combination of efforts would give the best results.

    The flaw with data being corrected on centerlinescores and not in the USDF database is that owners/prospective buyers may at some point try to use the (corrected) info and find out the USDF database doesn't match that.
    My horse is a dressage diva so I don't have to be.

    Quote Originally Posted by katarine
    If you have a fat gay horse that likes Parelli, you're really screwed



  14. #134
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    May. 16, 2000
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    Quote Originally Posted by SaddleFitterVA View Post
    Not agreeing with your opinion that the data should be locked down is not the same is not understanding your argument.
    Precisely. Velvet, I just don't understand why you are so vehement about this information being "locked down" and only accessible by members. It just makes no sense to me. Heck, I'm just as embarrassed as the next person who has some scores in the 50s but so what? As ISE said (I think), it's very useful info when looking at horses that are for sale. I really appreciate how easy CLS has made it for me to check scores.

    CLS's isn't a better mousetrap; it's the original mousetrap. And very well done! I hope he makes a bundle of money advertising.
    Charter member of the I-Refuse-to-Relinquish-My-Whip Clique



  15. #135
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    And just to be cantankerous, Velvet, your pony analogy doesn't hold up. My understanding is that Jay was accessing the RAW data and then compiling it in a meaningful way. If the info was already prettified by USDF and he "stole" it and then made money selling it, that would be something else altogether. But that isn't the case.

    The big baddy IMO is USDF for spending members' dues on something that already existed and in a much slicker and more accurate form than what they came up with. Sorry USDF, but the spade is a spade.
    Charter member of the I-Refuse-to-Relinquish-My-Whip Clique



  16. #136
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    Methinks the lunar landowner doth protest too much.

    I think suzy hit upon the real reason for spasmodic sphincter contractions-

    embarassment.



  17. #137
    DownYonder is offline Schoolmaster Premium Member
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    The fact remains that USDF did not create the data. It does not own the data. It only warehouses the data. If it wants to shut down access to its warehouse, it is within its rights to do so. But if it shuts down access for Jay, then it has to shut down access for everyone else. OTOH, if it wants to allow access by paying members, and Jay is a paying member, then where is the problem?

    And I still think it would have been more ethical for USDF to try to partner with Jay rather than steal his design concept, but as I said earlier - USDF already had programmers on the payroll. I am betting those programmers were shown the CLS site and asked if they could do something similar - and they said, "Sure."

    Upside is that probably no additional funds were spent to develop USDFscores, but downside is that USDF developed a copycat site of CLS - and may have put itself in jeopardy of a lawsuit for theft of intellectual property by stealing Jay's mousetrap design. And defense of any such lawsuit WILL require use of funds. WTG, USDF.

    I wonder if anyone there considered the possible legal ramifications of what they were doing, or if they even consulted their attorneys on the issue.



  18. #138
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    Lol about the pony chairs...

    I think I own my scores...I paid for them, the good the bad and the ugly, they are MINE....and I want Jay to have them
    "When you think you don't need a coach ...then you're in trouble" Don Imus 2012



  19. #139
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    Yes, the sad truth is that we all own our own scores.



  20. #140
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    I only own the ones over 65%. USDF can keep the rest. :O
    From now on, ponyfixer, i'll include foot note references.



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