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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by CenterlineScores View Post

    We are all talking about the same set of underlying public data here. Whether that is displayed: at the show, in a PDF on the show's website, on USEF.org, on USDF.org, on chronofhorse.com, in the magazine, etc.

    In the same way that Google crawls the public web and correlates and collates and aggregates other public data, we do the same thing for the public dressage scores.
    Yep, so go get your own data and create your own databased at your own expense. Stop living off the USDF's efforts. Which has been an uphill climb to build for years due to the amount of effort and membership $ spent.

    We didn't just build a BETTER mousetrap. We INVENTED it.
    Yes, by feeding off their data. So, why are you owed anything? It wasn't an altruistic effort on your part. And if you'd want to keep it going, you certainly can. You can go through all those other sites and just pull the information together and build your own database. That way you can provide everything based on your own efforts rather than living off the single efforts of an association where we've all given them our money to create the database for use by members. [/quote]

    Will I try to get some revenue out of the site at some point in the future? Yes.
    And you can still do this. But not by feeding off the USDF for free. If you pay them a fee to have access to their data, then fine. And I don't mean as an individual member. You need to have full access all the time as a BUSINESS PARTNER so you are providing them with something in return for using their data. Your hours of effort mean nothing if you didnt' take this into consideration. That means it was simply poor planning on your part. Just because someone has data living on the internet for a while doesn't mean it will always be there for someone who's drawing on it. They owe you NOTHING. You, however, already owe them something in all the traffic their compiled database has provided. I don't know how in the world anyone can see you as a victim in all of this. You made a decision knowing the risk. Now you might have to pay for the access for your BUSINESS site. Okay, so how does that make you a victim? It makes you a business person that has a responsible relationship with another entity/business partner.

    Locking the data up behind a password does nothing to promote or improve accountability for the sport of Dressage.
    Yes, it does. It drives more people to join the USDF which is the main body for promoting our sport and continues to require membership to provide said promotion. Just pay them some money and act like a business. Others have done it and through promotion to the membership by the USDF they have been able to grow and make money.

    (BTW, yes I did get the numbers of the non-profit wrong. I didn't look them up online. I just did it by memory and was wrong in how I order them and their parenthesis, but it is a benefit to the MEMBERS. It owes nothing to the general public, we just want it to reach out to them to help it grow as a part of the mission of the organization. As an individual, you have a right to view the data. You do not, however, OWN the data and have no right to share that data with the public on a regular basis. It's just not your RIGHT. You should have worked closely with them from the start. That would have been the smart thing here. To cry foul now is simply showing a lack of business saavy.)
    "Relinquish your whip!!"



  2. #62
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    its too late Velvet - the mouse is out of the box. the only thing to do now is to jump on the CLS bandwagon - the USDF should partner with Jay - that is the only financially sound thing to do.

    and fwiw, this is how things work IRL...... it is called innovation....



  3. #63
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    Velvet, much of your angst seems to be driven from thinking that I feel like a "victim" or that USDF somehow "owes" me something. This is, categorically, untrue. No one owes me anything. I am not a victim of anyone. I am not even "crying foul" about USDFScores.com. I just think it is flattering and interesting that they have created a copycat clone of CenterlineScores.com.

    This has nothing to do with being a Luddite, Databases are NOT copyrightable per se according to US Copyright law. I understand that you fervently believe that the raw public facts and data about dressage scores belongs to the USDF and the membership EXCLUSIVELY, but both the US Supreme Court and US Copyright law disagree with you. According to both: Do they own their database? YES. Do they own the underlying facts and data IN their database? NO. Under US law, regardless of how much time and effort is put into it, this doesn't change.

    If I had somehow hacked into the USDF.org servers and stolen their database, that would be one thing; but I assembled MY OWN database from the publicly available data. That is something quite different.



  4. #64
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    Well said. Bravo!!



  5. #65
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    Centerline, I have never said it was copywrite material. I have never said the USDF OWNS the data in that the information should not be allowed to live somewhere else.

    My position has been, and will continue to be, that this DATABASE that they own and have compiled belongs to them. They do not have to share that information with anyone other than members VIA THEIR DATABASE. They own the servers, they own the database structure (all the tables, etc.) and they have PAID employees to enter that data into said database.

    This has been and will continue to be my point. None of you seem to get that. It's not your database. It belongs to the USDF and they are only responsible for putting that data to use for the members in a way that benefits the membership in a way the member representatives (committees and board) decide to use it. It's that simple. It's currently public, but it does not have to (and IMO should not) stay public. They also have the right to build any interface they want, and since you never had an official agreement with them, you lose in this case. It's just that simple.

    As I have said, and continue to say, if the data is as simple to mine from other sources as you have stated, then go get it for yourself. Build your own database, then no one can ever threaten to take it from you by locking you out of their servers.



    I have no angst over a copywrite infringement. That was brought up by someone else who believed they were being clever with their reply and were attempting to deflect the conversation, but they failed to understand the words I was using because they have no comprehension of a database and ownership of said data collected on that database by a corporation or organization. Even if the data is public information, access to the server is not.

    Jumping Jimminey, are we all clear on that fact now? I guess those who are not IT savvy still will not get it. Luddites will never get it. The internet is like magic to them, I guess. But I expect you to know better. You say you are not crying "foul" and yet you fuel the unprofessional side of this debate/discussion by stating you should continue to recieve free access, and that you built it without any conversations with the USDF avoiding any opportunity to create a mutually beneficial relationship.
    "Relinquish your whip!!"



  6. #66
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    I'm not sure about this, but I think that because the scores are generated in a "public venue" sort of way, then the information is considered "public knowledge" and should be available upon request.



  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by BaroquePony View Post
    I'm not sure about this, but I think that because the scores are generated in a "public venue" sort of way, then the information is considered "public knowledge" and should be available upon request.
    Once again, the data on the SERVER is not public unless the USDF chooses to make it public. And they DO NOT have to provide anyone with access to their SERVER.

    Oh, wait. It's all magic. I forgot.
    "Relinquish your whip!!"



  8. #68
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    Velvet, I don't think anyone is hacking the USDF server, because that is illegal. I think you are missing the point in that that information is considered "public domain" and is required by various laws to be available, one way or another, legally.



  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by BaroquePony View Post
    Velvet, I don't think anyone is hacking the USDF server, because that is illegal. I think you are missing the point in that that information is considered "public domain" and is required by various laws to be available, one way or another, legally.
    Forest...trees...

    I never said they were hacking the database. Did you read my replies? I've repeatedly stated that the USDF has every right to lock down the servers. To lock out Centerline. They do. It's not public domain unless they choose to make it so. My understanding is that they have built their own improved interface and are going to only provide data to those who are members. And on an individual basis, at this time (so if Centerline still wants the data, then they need to go ahead and make a relationship with the USDF to get access and make the information available on their site).

    It's about the DATABASE living on a USDF SERVER. They own the server, they have compiled the data. They own the servers. They can choose what to do with the servers and the data they have gathered and are maintaining on their servers.

    Why is this so amazingly difficult to understand? Here, try this. If you decided to share part of your hard drive on your own computer and have it available to everyone on the internet, but it had a compilation of photos from you and your friends that you chosen to share publicly in other places as well, that does not mean you have to continue to share those photos. No one can make you do it. No one can make the USDF do it. You could lock down your computer and not allow anyone to have that data anymore, or unless they had a password you gave them. And you can change your rules for allowing them to have access at any time because it's your computer. You are under no obligation to continue to share it.

    Now, if someone else went out and took the time to track down all those photos on the internet and put them into their own database (since you had already made them public and had not attached any rights to said photos), they could do that. It's okay.

    It's a matter of what the USDF chooses to do. They can make it fully accessible and public, or they can make it only available to members (since members are paying for it). They can also work out a deal with Centerline to give them access, maybe for a fee, maybe for free. It's up to them.

    My point is that the USDF should make it private to members only. It's that simple. It is becoming more locked down already, and I think they should continue unless Centerline joins them in a business relationship (and USDF wants that relationship.

    If everyone adores having this inforamation available to them for free and feels it's such a huge service to the dressage community, then go to the USDF convention and bring it up. And be willing to create a proposal that LOGICALLY states the benefits and cost to the USDF. Present it so that they see it your way. Simply stating it's a benefit to the entire dressage community without any facts to back this up is not going to get you very far. Or, ask Centerline to go out and gather the information and provide it to you for free. They keep saying it's possible to mine the data and provide it. Let them do it while continuing to use their current site. Then they won't have any fear of being locked out.
    "Relinquish your whip!!"



  10. #70
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    So, if USDF "locks down" their database, I hope Jay just does a pass-through of my log in credentials, because I really do like his site.

    I'm a lifetime USDF member and am singularly unimpressed with their data management skills. I am not a luddite, and while I no longer do database programming, I spent over 50% of my career doing it.

    I don't think you should have to be a member to see the data. I don't think that will inspire any prospective dressage rider to join USDF, to the tune of what...$85/year?

    The only way they will get money from me now is if they come up with something that is worth my spending money on, and the stupid, redundant horse ID/registrations that is required by both USDF, USEF, USEA, USHJA, etc. Oh wait, and I have to pay for my Rider Awards too.

    And, since their data management skilz are so sublime, they can't even do a score check when you submit the application, but instead have the "Make sure your scores are there, we won't refund your $$ if you submit your application early".

    In fact, their website kinda sucks. I say that as a USDF Lifetime member.



  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velvet View Post
    Once again, the data on the SERVER is not public unless the USDF chooses to make it public. And they DO NOT have to provide anyone with access to their SERVER.

    Oh, wait. It's all magic. I forgot.
    You are absolutely correct. USDF does not have to provide anyone with access to their server. Lock it down. See how happy that makes the membership.

    Which raises the question of who "owns" the data. USDF??? USEF???? The show venue that produced the competion that created the scores????

    It is not so simple that USDF "owns" the data.

    I suggest you read the US Supreme Court's Feist decision.

    Below are excerpts of the case background.
    Rural Inc., is a certified public utility that provides telephone service to several communities in northwest Kansas. Feist is a publishing company that specializes in area-wide telephone directories. Feist and Rural compete vigorously for yellow pages advertising.

    To obtain white pages listings for its area-wide directory, Feist approached each of the 11 telephone companies operating in northwest Kansas and offered to pay for the right to use its white pages listings. Of the 11 telephone companies, only Rural refused to license its listings to Feist. Rural's refusal created a problem for Feist, as omitting these listings would have left a gaping hole in its area-wide directory, rendering it less attractive to potential yellow pages advertisers.

    Rural sued for copyright infringement in the District Court for the District of Kansas taking the position that Feist, in compiling its own directory, could not use the information contained in Rural's white pages.


    Below are excerpts of the SCOTUS decision

    This case concerns the interaction of two well-established propositions. The first is that facts are not copyrightable; the other, that compilations of facts generally are.

    There is an undeniable tension between these two propositions…..The key to resolving the tension lies in understanding why facts are not copyrightable.

    It is this bedrock principle of copyright that mandates the law's seemingly disparate treatment of facts and factual compilations. "No one may claim originality as to facts."

    The compilation author typically chooses which facts to include, in what order to place them, and how to arrange the collected data so that they may be used effectively by readers. These choices as to selection and arrangement, so long as they are made independently by the compiler and entail a minimal degree of creativity, are sufficiently original that Congress may protect such compilations through the copyright laws.

    This protection is subject to an important limitation. No matter how original the format, however, the facts themselves do not become original through association.

    Notwithstanding a valid copyright, a subsequent compiler remains free to use the facts contained in another's publication to aid in preparing a competing work, so long as the competing work does not feature the same selection and arrangement.

    No matter how original the format, however, the facts themselves do not become original through association….a subsequent compiler remains free to use the facts contained in another's publication to aid in preparing a competing work, so long as the competing work does not feature the same selection and arrangement.
    Which raises the question....can CLS sue USDF for copyright infringement?



  12. #72
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    I quit volunteering my time as a board member several decades ago when several board members, myself included, felt it was necessary to share a bottle of wine or two just to get through the meetings. I quit paying dues sometime in the late eigthies, except for a short couple of years around 2007.



  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by pluvinel View Post
    You are absolutely correct. USDF does not have to provide anyone with access to their server. Lock it down. See how happy that makes the membership.

    Which raises the question of who "owns" the data.

    I suggest you read the US Supreme Court's Feist decision.

    Below are excerpts of the case background.



    Below are excerpts of the SCOTUS decision
    Oh...my...word...

    And your quote relates to the discussion at hand HOW exactly??? Seriously, this is not related in the least. We're talking a private, non-profit organization compiling freaking data sent to it, or expected from shows that are USDF rated. This has nothing to do with a publicly held utilities company, for crying out loud. You people are freaking insane if you think this relates to the argument at hand about public data compiled in a PRIVATE database (private if the USDF chooses to keep it private). Everyone has the right to publicly available data. No one has the RIGHT to the USDF's private databases to create an interface based on that database.

    Once again, go back and look at my posts and look at my last example. You guys are so amazingly off base. You're not even in the reality of this conversation--when we talk about freedom of information and publicly available information vs privately own databases that are tracking and compiling that data.

    Velvetwhoisthroughtryingtoeducateluddites
    "Relinquish your whip!!"



  14. #74
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    Posted by pluvinel:

    Which raises the question of who "owns" the data.
    Velvet, pluvinel "raised the question". I have the same question.



  15. #75
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    I think this goes back to the USDF "mission statement" sort of thing.



  16. #76
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    And your quote relates to the discussion at hand HOW exactly???
    I'm quoting SCOTUS decision on who "owns" data...in this case it was a public utility, but the decision would apply to USDF. USDF is a public corporation incorporated in Nebraska.

    We're talking a private, non-profit organization compiling freaking data sent to it, or expected from shows that are USDF rated.
    (1) The fact the USDF "compiled data" is addressed in Feist....doesn't get them off the hook.


    (2) Shows are not "USDF rated"....they are USEF licensed.

    Everyone has the right to publicly available data. No one has the RIGHT to the USDF's private databases to create an interface based on that database.
    CLS is not creating "an interface." He has build his own database...he is not querying USDF servers.

    Based on my read of Feist, CLS has a good basis for having a "cease and desist" order filed on USDF to stop USDFScores....He invented the format. That originality is what is addressed in the Feist decision



  17. #77
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    He is pulling the data off USDF servers. That was already stated by Centerline. He is not compiling the data himself.

    So, by Plu's thought process, all information databases owned by every corporation that uses that data for public purposes on the internet needs to be open to anyone wanting to use that information, thus bypassing the need for their own Db. Yeah...right...go talk to Walmart or maybe Amazon.
    "Relinquish your whip!!"



  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velvet View Post
    He is pulling the data off USDF servers. That was already stated by Centerline. He is not compiling the data himself.
    .....
    So if Fox Village or USEF are willing to give him the data is that ok with you????

    The USDF does not "create" the data as do Walmart or Amazon of their customers.

    USEF
    receives data from show secretaries.

    USDF compiles the data so its members can search scores....same as CLS.

    So who owns the data? The shows???? USEF????



  19. #79
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    Actually, show secretaries send results to both USEF and USDF separately. The two associations do not share the data with each other. The data comes from a .dat file generated by the show secretary's Fox Village program. (I don't know how secretaries who don't use Fox Village do it.)

    COTH uses the same file type to compile their results. (And no, they do not publish complete results, only the first three places in each class.)

    Fox Village gets the results from a direct upload from the show secretary's computer.

    So each of these four places gets the exact same data from the shows. Since it comes from a Fox Village program first, should we say they own the data?



  20. #80
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    Plu, as I've said, again...and again...and now again. If Centerline pulls data from a publicly available server, no problem. If USDF locks down their data to limit access and not make it publicly available on their own, then using it and making said data free to the public is wrong and should be blocked. Also, since USDF resources are involved in compiling that data, I think it should be restricted by them.

    As for my Walmart example, I was not talking about their customer data. Simply their merchandise data they have compiled and organized in a way that is useful for them. Then again, they can connect to other corporations to instantly pull that data, but even there you'll find security on the all the databases to protect them from being used and abused-- and it is 100% legal.
    "Relinquish your whip!!"



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