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  1. #41
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    Honestly? I don't want to pay any more money to the USDF for something I am getting for free from centerline scores. U SDF has a history of not being the most effective with program/website issues.
    "The stumbler doesn’t build her life by being better than others, but by being better than she used to be."
    David Brooks



  2. #42
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    So I just tried to search my own horse's scores by horse name (which is trickier, and I wanted to compare to CL scores, which I LOFF). Well, one of my horses has an apostrophe in his name, so it won't let me search for him. I tried all permutations and nadda. So I had to search me and then click on his name.

    I think the site is busy and less-elegant than Jay's site as well.

    I do like the placing feature, though. Sometimes it's nice to see that the low 60s you got won the class (ie, you sucked the least of the suckees).
    From now on, ponyfixer, i'll include foot note references.



  3. #43
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    This is an interesting section of the EB minutes

    http://www.usdf.org/docs/about/about...EB/4-29-12.pdf

    Membership growth and retention initiatives report and strategy discussion – Stephan Hienzsch and Cindy Vimont (Section 4 – 12)

    George asked Stephan for his opinion on the next steps that should be taken regarding initiatives and strategies to improve membership growth and retention rates. Stephan asked for guidance on how to best utilize USDF’s limited human and financial resources. He believes that USDF needs to prioritize member retention vs. attracting new members. George suggested not putting much more resources to the Education Memberships. Janine recommended that USDF should engage in outreach only when minimal resources are required. She strongly recommended creation of a regional tier of awards. While the rider awards program remains enormously popular, the national year-end awards program is not seen as accessible to the majority of our members.

    .....

    Discussion continued on how USDF can encourage dressage interest with western riders and not appear elitist. We should share and encourage dressage education and stay abreast of other developments.

    George said that USDF should continue with a membership advisory group with the goal being to identify the mission and goals of the Membership Committee in the future. This should include guidelines on how to populate the committee. Kevin would like to see a deadline for goals and populating the committee.
    Applying "USDF’s limited human and financial resources" in recreating and duplicating Centerlinescores existing web site doesn't seem to be the best way to make use of member funds.

    Some marketing courses might also help.

    .
    Last edited by pluvinel; Oct. 5, 2012 at 06:57 PM.



  4. #44
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    You guys just keep missing the forest for all those trees. Why give things away for free? Giving free access to a database that costs the members $$ is a good way to throw away money.

    I get it. You all love Centerline being for free, but it never should have been given away for free. It's paid by the members (those of us who are) and should be available only to the members. Same with USEF information.

    Not everyone has a right to it. I don't know where you people are coming up with that idea. If I pay for something it's mine. This belongs to the USDF, and since the USDF is member supported, it belongs to the members. Centerline can feel free to built it's own database and keep it update. They seem to think that they can find that information elsewhere as it is, so I say, "Have at it!"

    The only exception I'm taking with the USDF is that they are not allowing GMO members to have access. THAT is wrong. They already rob the GMOs and make joining super expensive (to the GMOs since they are building in the USDF fees). They are basically taking money out of the GMOs mouths at this point in time. They need to figure out a way to still include the GMOs and if that means a fee to the GMO rather than individuals and then giving them a membership that is basically meaningless, so be it. But what they are doing right now is killing small/start up GMOs. And locking them out of access to the database when they're also contributing to the USDF is wrong.
    "Relinquish your whip!!"



  5. #45
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    You guys just keep missing the forest for all those trees. Why give things away for free? Giving free access to a database that costs the members $$ is a good way to throw away money.
    no you missed the forest...why not let centerline do what they do? It does not cost USDF anything. I would never pay USDF for scores, why would I? I bet if you asked them how much they made selling scores it would be minimal.
    "The stumbler doesn’t build her life by being better than others, but by being better than she used to be."
    David Brooks



  6. #46
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    Not selling them. It should be a member (any membership level) benefit and mot public. If Centerline wants to get in bed with them, fine. But they should make a donation/pay compensation for access to the data. Centerline is not altruistic. Don't be fooled. It's looking for a way to draw traffic and then make money off potential advertising. That sort of business relationship is fine.
    "Relinquish your whip!!"



  7. #47
    DownYonder is offline Schoolmaster Premium Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velvet View Post
    Not selling them. It should be a member (any membership level) benefit and mot public. If Centerline wants to get in bed with them, fine. But they should make a donation/pay compensation for access to the data. Centerline is not altruistic. Don't be fooled. It's looking for a way to draw traffic and then make money off potential advertising. That sort of business relationship is fine.
    And why shouldn't Centerline make money? It's the American way. Jay built a better mousetrap.



  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velvet View Post
    You guys just keep missing the forest for all those trees. Why give things away for free? Giving free access to a database that costs the members $$ is a good way to throw away money.

    I get it. You all love Centerline being for free, but it never should have been given away for free. It's paid by the members (those of us who are) and should be available only to the members. Same with USEF information.

    .....

    The only exception I'm taking with the USDF is that they are not allowing GMO members to have access. THAT is wrong. They already rob the GMOs and make joining super expensive (to the GMOs since they are building in the USDF fees). They are basically taking money out of the GMOs mouths at this point in time. They need to figure out a way to still include the GMOs and if that means a fee to the GMO rather than individuals and then giving them a membership that is basically meaningless, so be it. But what they are doing right now is killing small/start up GMOs. And locking them out of access to the database when they're also contributing to the USDF is wrong.
    Not because it is free.....because:

    (1)-Jay produced a great mousetrap.

    (2)-The USDF simply had to reach out to Centerline and he's said he would have been happy to "partner" with USDF....for NO MONEY. Instead, what did USDF do? They spent member funds replicating an already functioning site when Williams, Malone & Co admit having limited resources and funds. Did anyone in USDF (a) evaluate the alternatives for the cost to develop a site from scratch vs buying the already existing site or (b) give Jay the contract to run the site for USDF or (c) explore some sort of commercial "partner" arrangement?

    (3)-USDF is a member organization. Besides the fiduciary responsibility of USDF to be good stewards of member funds, how does ignoring/rebuffing a superb volunteer effort engender/attract support for potentially new and/or existing members?

    As far as who "owns" the data.....It seems the US Supreme Court has already decided the answer to the question in the case
    Feist Publications, Inc. v. Rural Telephone Service Co

    This, then, resolves the doctrinal tension: Copyright treats facts and factual compilations in a wholly consistent manner. Facts, whether alone or as part of a compilation, are not original and therefore may not be copyrighted. A factual compilation is eligible for copyright if it features an original selection or arrangement of facts, but the copyright is limited to the particular selection or arrangement. In no event may copyright extend to the facts themselves.
    We have all seen a Periodic Table in school. You cannot copyright the elements....what the law allows you to do is to copyright the the "expression" (eg., the formatting and display) of the information.

    So by copying the formatting it would seem that Centerline might have grounds for a case of copyright infringement against USDF.
    Last edited by pluvinel; Oct. 6, 2012 at 10:02 AM.



  9. #49
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    Pluvinel - there is also the issue that the information is IN THE PUBLIC DOMAIN at every single show or published in magazines.

    For those that think it shouldn't be free - should the COTH or any other magazine have to pay a fee to print any show results?

    If the USDF doesn't have funds - they certainly won't have them to defend a law suit which clearly has no legs to stand on.

    And here once again is a decision made by the USDF without any feed back from the members who pay the bills. Had they put their thinking caps on and put their over inflated egos in their pockets they would have seen the possibility of partnering with Centerline and reaping income from advertising. This option wouldn't have cost the USDF MEMBERS a dime!

    And the dunce cap goes to..................the USDF.
    Summit Sporthorses Ltd. Inc.
    "Breeding Competition Partners & Lifelong Friends"



  10. #50
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  11. #51
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    I don't understand the proprietary-data argument. That's like saying that the FEI owns all scores for all international competitions, so if you're not a member of the FEI you can't see what the current international rankings are-- or what score won the Olympics.

    CLScores serves as a quick buyer-beware, which is of benefit to the sport. It's also a great way to gauge your competition (as I just did for the championships... and I really regret it because now I'm psyching myself out). More awareness of higher standards is nothing if not helpful for the state of US dressage.

    I'd like to see some measures of center graphically in CLScores (I love me some box plots!) but I think it's a great service.



  12. #52
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    You're right. None of you understand the fact that the USDF owns the database. They compiled the data, organized it and manage all incoming source data. It has NOTHING to do with a copyright or the fact that the datab is often published elsewhere.

    It is a DB owned by USDF. They opened it up, and they have every right to close that door and create a locked down interface. And well they should. The only business relationship they should have with Centerline is possibly charging them a fee to give them access to the database.

    I can't state it more clearly. If you are a luddite you'll just never get it and I hope you never work with corporate data and data security (let alone marketing).
    "Relinquish your whip!!"



  13. #53
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    USDF is not a corporation. It is a non-profit, and I believe it is held to a different set of standards entirely than a coporation.



  14. #54
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    Nope. You are wrong. Their data is their data. There are no laws stating that their DB or other info must be public. They also make money and it's legal. They are a 501.3c
    "Relinquish your whip!!"



  15. #55
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    you know you can get the data from the shows themselves, which is how USDF gets them. The secretary sends them the results.

    AND, if the USDF were not so stingy with the information we would not have payed any attention to centerline scores right?
    "The stumbler doesn’t build her life by being better than others, but by being better than she used to be."
    David Brooks



  16. #56
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    Velvet - I just can't wrap my head around you opinion. Centerline can pay for a membership and access the information just the way any of us who are members can. So the "their" you refer to is really all of US who have memberships - not the officers or employees of the USDF.

    And it's a 501(c)(3) - not the reverse. Non-profits by law exist for the benefit of the members. So anyone who is a member can use the information. As others have pointed out - Centerline's program is easy to use and they are very quick to respond to questions or about omissions and/or errors. I can't say the same about the USDF. Time will tell if they really are building a better mouse trap.
    Summit Sporthorses Ltd. Inc.
    "Breeding Competition Partners & Lifelong Friends"



  17. #57
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    Jul. 13, 2011
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    Just... wow.

    So, I've had some time to think about this a little bit more and it seems that many of you have reached the same conclusion.

    We are all talking about the same set of underlying public data here. Whether that is displayed: at the show, in a PDF on the show's website, on USEF.org, on USDF.org, on chronofhorse.com, in the magazine, etc.

    In the same way that Google crawls the public web and correlates and collates and aggregates other public data, we do the same thing for the public dressage scores.

    HOWEVER, What makes CenterlineScores.com VALUABLE to Riders, Trainers, Horse owners and potential horse owners IS NOT THE DATA. It is just a raw materials starting point because (as many have said, THE DATA HAVE BEEN AVAILABLE FOR over 10 years online!) CenterlineScores.com just takes those raw data points and puts them together in a particularly useful and usable way. USDF could have done this VERY. SAME. THING. -- A DECADE AGO. They didn't. We didn't just build a BETTER mousetrap. We INVENTED it.

    It took me just over 3 days to design, build and populate the initial database with the first raw public data points (scores from 2003-2010).

    It took me ANOTHER 8 MONTHS to do the thinking, design and coding necessary to build and prepare the website for launch last year.

    Will I try to get some revenue out of the site at some point in the future? Yes. But let's be clear. If I ever do make any money, it will ONLY be because of a ton of hard work and my own particular brand of crazy that causes me to:

    • Wake at 4 am most days to write code
    • Personally answer every email sent within 24 hours of receiving it
    • Spend hours researching and correcting errors in the USDF data
    • Manually review test sheets sent in by riders who want to add rides that were missing from the USDF data
    • Brainstorm and design new features
    • Think about analyses that can/should be done
    • Monitor the hardware & software


    .. and a thousand other things it takes to make this happen.. all while maintaining a full-time job and trying to support my family and my wife's Dressage training & showing.

    At the end of the day, all of this effort will not be (and never has been) about me getting rich on the back of the USDF. What I was trying to do is to bring in a tiny little bit of accountability and transparency, make it easier for people to research horses and riders, and to help broaden this sport that we all love.

    Whenever I consider adding a new feature or view of the data, one of the decision criteria is this:

    Will it discourage people from doing recognized shows with licensed judges?
    If it does. I don't add it. As someone else said earlier...

    Quote Originally Posted by mbm View Post
    it does dressage no good to be so opaque.....
    There can be no doubt that CenterlineScores.com has CHANGED US dressage at the national (vs. FEI) levels. People look for and evaluate trainers, riders and horses in a completely different way now. On balance, that's a VERY, VERY good thing.

    The Bottom line is:

    Locking the data up behind a password does nothing to promote or improve accountability for the sport of Dressage.



  18. #58
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    Well said Jay.

    *star*
    "Avoid loud and aggressive persons, they are vexations to the spirit."
    - Desiderata, (c) Max Ehrman, 1926



  19. #59
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  20. #60

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    [QUOTE=CenterlineScores;6595191]
    HOWEVER, What makes CenterlineScores.com VALUABLE to Riders, Trainers, Horse owners and potential horse owners IS NOT THE DATA. It is just a raw materials starting point because (as many have said, THE DATA HAVE BEEN AVAILABLE FOR over 10 years online!) CenterlineScores.com just takes those raw data points and puts them together in a particularly useful and usable way. USDF could have done this VERY. SAME. THING. -- A DECADE AGO. They didn't. We didn't just build a BETTER mousetrap. We INVENTED it.
    [QUOTE=CenterlineScores;6595191]

    THIS! I use to spend ages moving backwards through USDF's website trying to locate the information that is now readily available in Jay's database. For my scores, no.....for horse/rider scores I was interested in purchasing/training with, offspring (Jay do you think you could add this feature to your database ), etc.....

    And, I think it is sad that both USDF and USEF has dragged their feet on creating useful databases to assist members, breeders, riders, trainers....improve their knowledge base. Each of us should be wondering why that is the case!



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