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  1. #21
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    It is USDF members' data.
    Whatever. Centerline was using the USDF data, for crying out loud!
    The data is not free to the members and should be fully controlled by the USDF.
    Firstly, CenterlineScores.com is built on publicly available competition results data. While it primarily uses USDF.org results, the same data is also freely available to anyone with a web-browser from USEF.org, FVD, local show management, GMO websites, etc. Heck, you can get a listing of results right here on the Chronicle and the hard copy version of the magazine lists out every score from every rider at the show.

    So, to be very explicitly clear... we are talking about the publicly available results of a public (open to the public) sporting event. These are public facts and "facts" are not copyrightable under US Copyright Law (and Supreme Court precedent).

    I can see no benefit to the MEMBERS nor organization by having it free to the general public.
    This is demonstrably false. I have stacks of email from people (including high profile riders, trainers, judges, etc.) thanking me for creating the site and highlighting the fact that it is so incredibly useful. A simple search of this very forum would yield a similar stack of comments from folks who have benefitted from it.

    One of the goals in creating the website was to promote accountability and transparency in the sport. We have done that (or at least made a pretty good start). At the end of the day, the results have ALWAYS been public. However, chief among the innovations that CenterlineScores.com brought (and USDFScores.com now attempts to copy) is aggregating that data together, making it searchable and presenting it in a useful and usable way for people researching their own scores (or those of other riders) and researching trainers and/or horses.

    While I do think that their blatant screen-for-screen and function-for-function copycat of CenterlineScores is intellectually & creatively lazy (and in my opinion very likely a Copyright infringement for its almost complete reproduction of some sections of the site - even down to the wording of some of the content), it is also a validation.

    If "imitation is the sincerest form of flattery", then the USDF has just paid me a huge compliment!

    One of the questions that the article asks is: "Why would USDF spend its members' money to develop a copy of an already-existing free service?" In the beginning, I would have been thrilled to have been able to put the USDF logo at the top of the site and work WITH USDF. But the USDF chose, instead, to spend a good chunk of its members' money to RE-implement my ideas in their own site. This makes no sense to me and I still, to this day, can't quite understand the motivation behind it. At the very least, I would have expected their own unique "riff" or take on the concept rather than a copycat rip off of mine.
    Last edited by CenterlineScores; Oct. 5, 2012 at 08:13 AM. Reason: Add Subscribe to thread...



  2. #22
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    Aug. 30, 2001
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    Purcellville, VA
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velvet View Post
    The data is not free to the members and should be fully controlled by the USDF. I can see no benefit to the MEMBERS nor organization by having it free to the general public.
    As a MEMBER who wants to see scores for past horses of my own and not pay for a report of data, I think having a free website is great.

    I also love to go look up other people, because DQs can be such a nasty bunch, it helps separate the rail bird experts from those who at least show up and participate, even if with meh scores and then I can also see who at least knows how to show well.

    I don't like seeing that one sub 50 score on my list of scores, but whatever.



  3. #23
    Join Date
    Apr. 9, 2008
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    Quote Originally Posted by CenterlineScores View Post
    .....

    <<<snip>>>>

    While I do think that their blatant screen-for-screen and function-for-function copycat of CenterlineScores is intellectually & creatively lazy (and in my opinion very likely a Copyright infringement for its almost complete reproduction of some sections of the site - even down to the wording of some of the content), it is also a validation.

    If "imitation is the sincerest form of flattery", then the USDF has just paid me a huge compliment!

    One of the questions that the article asks is: "Why would USDF spend its members' money to develop a copy of an already-existing free service?" In the beginning, I would have been thrilled to have been able to put the USDF logo at the top of the site and work WITH USDF. But the USDF chose, instead, to spend a good chunk of its members' money to RE-implement my ideas in their own site. This makes no sense to me and I still, to this day, can't quite understand the motivation behind it. At the very least, I would have expected their own unique "riff" or take on the concept rather than a copycat rip off of mine.
    This^^^^.

    The COTH group formerly known as the "Nerd Herd" also contacted the USDF to suggest that members' skill with statistics could be applied to help improve dressage, to help judges analyze training performance. We offered skills that could help the US (eg., USDF/USEF) lead the world in dressage scoring analysis by applying commercially available techniques to help improve their programs. All this was offered for free.

    One member naively approached high level judges at a large show with a survey to get "the voice of the customer"....a term of art used in quality circles. This resulted in repercussions.

    As Jay said, the USDF chose to ignore him and spend members' money on a functionality he had already created...the web site was up and running. This should give the membership great confidence about USDF financial stewardship of their funds.

    So for all those people who say to quit posting comments on internet BB's and to "volunteer" ....well, here is a graphic example of how well new ideas are embraced.....not. Seems the USDF could not bring themselves to reach out to Jay.....to play well with others in their sandbox.

    Catherine Haddad's treatment is another example of how the USDF ignores useful suggestions that comes from a rather well qualified voice.

    And they wonder why USDF membership is going down?
    Last edited by pluvinel; Oct. 5, 2012 at 06:53 AM.



  4. #24
    DownYonder is offline Schoolmaster Premium Member
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    Go, Jay!

    And I would love to know the name of the USDF official who made the decision to rip off your site instead of working with you. Which USDF Council or Committee has responsibility for Technology? This org chart doesn't even show the Technology department. http://www.usdf.org/docs/about/about...e/OrgChart.pdf. So who heads up that department, and who do they report to?

    I also could find no mention of this issue under "Staff Activities Report to EB", so did this all happen behind the scenes? Was the EB even aware someone had given the Technology group the go-ahead for this project? Was President George Williams aware it was happening? Did he give his blessing? And how much money was spent "re-developing" something that already existed?



  5. #25
    DownYonder is offline Schoolmaster Premium Member
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    OK, found this on the Staff page - http://www.usdf.org/about/contact/staff.asp

    Operations
    Senior Director of Operations - Connie Huy

    Information Technology is listed under Operations.

    Information Technology
    Senior Programmer - Chad Compton
    Website Programmer - Ben de Jesus

    It would appear from this that either Chad or Ben developed the new site, and assuming at the direction of Connie. But who did she get approval from? Again, I cannot see any mention of the project in any of the Staff Activities Reports to EB.



  6. #26
    Join Date
    May. 2, 2012
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    AIKEN SC
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velvet View Post
    Agreed. Thus the information is paid for by members and should only be available to members.
    USEF provides a lot of data for no charge.
    Dressage placings are available for free on the USEF site and yes, that's free to non USEF members. In addition to placings the percents are listed on USEF.

    USDF is a USEF approved discipline specific group. USHJA has all the hunter/jumper results available for free on USEF's website. Why should USDF operate any differently? I think a good argument can be made that the data belongs to USEF, not USDF. After all dressage shows are required to send all their results to USEF the same as USHJA and USEA. And USEF is the NGB, not USDF.

    A little transparency is a good thing.
    Fan of Sea Accounts



  7. #27
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    I think most people will find that the USDF is non-responsive to valid inquiries. I wrote to George Williams about the fact that I have to pay $200 a year for my corporation (that owns all the horses/ponies). I myself have a Lifetime membership that I bought eons ago. If I owned the horses and ponies I would have to pay ZERO.

    USDF discriminates against owners that are corporations - with no added benefit. So the $200 a year all corporations that own horses pays is a nice big fat cash cow. My corporation gets the same products and services as the individuals paying ZERO.

    Williams response was wishy washy at best and no one else from the USDF ever responded.

    I would also add that the USEF search engines for results are a mess. At least Centerline allows the name of the horse or rider or owner to be entered and VOILA - the information is there. When I had an issue about one horse I had bred and emailed Centerline - VOILA I had an answer in within 1/2 day. Try getting that turn around from the USEF OR USDF - it will not happen.

    And for the millionth time - If the USEF would mandate that their HORSE ID numbers must be used by the USDF, USHJA, USEA - the members would benefit and the current high incidence of errors would be minimized. Tracking horses that cross disciplines would be facilitated. AND - we would have fewer errors and more reliable data.

    This won't happen because these organizations use the money - and from the archaic computer systems and search engines and errors - they are obviously not rotating that money back into improving the system.

    To say the data belongs to the USDF or the other hosre organizations isn't true. These are non-profits that exist by law for the benefit of the members. Ergo - any member can use that information to their benefit.
    Summit Sporthorses Ltd. Inc.
    "Breeding Competition Partners & Lifelong Friends"



  8. #28
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    Historical results were not free on USDF, even for members. They were $20 (est.) for each search. The searches often failed and the credit card was charged and no report received, resulting in having to call USDF to get the charge removed.

    It is true that USEF provides results for free, but they only go back to 2007.

    Even with the new USDFscores.com, I find Centerlinescores more user friendly. The least USDF could have done was give some credit to Centerline for their work and wonderful site that everyone I know loves.



  9. #29
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    Was the EB even aware someone had given the Technology group the go-ahead for this project?
    It seems that they were. There is this from earlier this year...

    Executive Board Meeting Minutes - 4/29/2012



  10. #30
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    Apr. 23, 1999
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    Rosehill, TX
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    from the above linked minutes

    "Discussion continued on the use by other companies of USDF results data."
    Last edited by SGray; Oct. 5, 2012 at 09:58 AM. Reason: formatting
    Nothing says "I love you" like a tractor. (Clydejumper)

    The reports states, “Elizabeth reported that she accidently put down this pony, ........, at the show.”



  11. #31
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    Aug. 14, 2004
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    interesting... they say that the rec'd 16k in revenue from score checks last year - so i guess the idea of having to pay someone for an already functioning website was too much for them to bear.

    in the real world USEF/USDF would of bought centerline scores ages ago.....

    Janine MOVED and Steve
    SECONDED a motion to approve the USDFscores.com proposal including the membership requirements for
    access and the discontinuation of the score report fees. MOTION CARRIED unanimously.



  12. #32
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    ToN Farm - you hit a significant nail on the head when stated that Centerline was USER FRIENDLY. With all the modern technology out there the various horse organizations always seem to be at least a couple of years behind. If you have to spend time everytime you go to the sites to try to remember how to use them - THEY ARE NOT USER FRIENDLY.

    There is also no reason why the performance results in ALL DISCIPLINES cannot be accessed by using the USEF # for the horse. They all need one to compete and it has to be on the entry form - yet another IT SOLUTION that these organizations avoid.


    And to those who say - "why should anyone want the information" HELLO - if someone is buying a horse and the seller represents various competition results - isn't it great to be able to VERIFY those representations? It's no secret that in the horse world - all disciplnes - horses being sold sometimes have puffed up and fabricated score histories. Oh yes they will tell the high scores but not always the low ones. Why not have access to ALL the scores to make your decision to buy or not.

    As a breeder - it would be fabulous to click in the Sire or Dam name and actually see the offspring results. I guess we will have to go through another Ice Age to get that feature even though it's not a significant IT challenge to set it up. The Jockey Club has been providing this feature for decades and decades.
    Summit Sporthorses Ltd. Inc.
    "Breeding Competition Partners & Lifelong Friends"



  13. #33

    Default Not free for all memberships

    I entered the USDF number for a mare I own, but not shown this year, as I thought it would be interesting to check the accuracy of the database.

    Please see the following message from the USDF database:

    You are logged in as Darlene Judd (GM) Sorry...
    As a USDF Group Member, you only have access to Current Competition Year score checks.

    With a Participating or Business membership, you can also access Liftime and Qualified Ride score checks on USDFScores.com.

    *Please note that USDF Participating and Business memberships will take 2 business days to process. Access will be available after processing is complete.

    There are so many reasons to join USDF, click here for more information and to upgrade your membership today!
    Last edited by Derid; Oct. 5, 2012 at 12:24 PM. Reason: spelling error



  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derid View Post
    I entered the USDF number for a mare I own, but not shown this year, as I thought it would be interesting to check the accuracy of the database.

    Please see the following message from the USDF database:

    You are logged in as Darlene Judd (GM) Sorry...
    As a USDF Group Member, you only have access to Current Competition Year score checks.

    With a Participating or Business membership, you can also access Liftime and Qualified Ride score checks on USDFScores.com.

    *Please note that USDF Participating and Business memberships will take 2 business days to process. Access will be available after processing is complete.

    There are so many reasons to join USDF, click here for more information and to upgrade your membership today!
    So instead of charging $20 for a Lifetime scorecheck, GMO members now have to pay $75 to become a Participating Member in order to see their lifetime scores.

    Or just go to Centerline Scores for free!

    (wow, greedy much, USDF?)



  15. #35
    Join Date
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    Quote Originally Posted by CenterlineScores View Post
    Firstly, CenterlineScores.com is built on publicly available competition results data. While it primarily uses USDF.org results, the same data is also freely available to anyone with a web-browser from USEF.org, FVD, local show management, GMO websites, etc. Heck, you can get a listing of results right here on the Chronicle and the hard copy version of the magazine lists out every score from every rider at the show.

    So, to be very explicitly clear... we are talking about the publicly available results of a public (open to the public) sporting event. These are public facts and "facts" are not copyrightable under US Copyright Law (and Supreme Court precedent).



    This is demonstrably false. I have stacks of email from people (including high profile riders, trainers, judges, etc.) thanking me for creating the site and highlighting the fact that it is so incredibly useful. A simple search of this very forum would yield a similar stack of comments from folks who have benefitted from it.

    One of the goals in creating the website was to promote accountability and transparency in the sport. We have done that (or at least made a pretty good start). At the end of the day, the results have ALWAYS been public. However, chief among the innovations that CenterlineScores.com brought (and USDFScores.com now attempts to copy) is aggregating that data together, making it searchable and presenting it in a useful and usable way for people researching their own scores (or those of other riders) and researching trainers and/or horses.

    While I do think that their blatant screen-for-screen and function-for-function copycat of CenterlineScores is intellectually & creatively lazy (and in my opinion very likely a Copyright infringement for its almost complete reproduction of some sections of the site - even down to the wording of some of the content), it is also a validation.

    If "imitation is the sincerest form of flattery", then the USDF has just paid me a huge compliment!

    One of the questions that the article asks is: "Why would USDF spend its members' money to develop a copy of an already-existing free service?" In the beginning, I would have been thrilled to have been able to put the USDF logo at the top of the site and work WITH USDF. But the USDF chose, instead, to spend a good chunk of its members' money to RE-implement my ideas in their own site. This makes no sense to me and I still, to this day, can't quite understand the motivation behind it. At the very least, I would have expected their own unique "riff" or take on the concept rather than a copycat rip off of mine.
    Then collect your data/facts from other sites that are public. The USDF site should not be public. It should be private. It is a member supported organization that pays to collect and compile that information into a centralized database. In my opinion, it should never have been open for your tool/site. If you wanted to build your own database by collecting information from other public sites, more power to you. But the USDF should keep this private.

    Yes, you get accolades from those who do not want to have to pay for a membership and yet want to review the data that members have paid the USDF to collect. That's fine for them, but this should remain a member only benefit!

    That's my opinion. You're welcome to have your own. I can see that you felt you would make money off the USDF and now they are potentially undermining that. When you build something on a database of information that is ultimately owned and controlled by someone else...that is the risk you are/were taking.

    Pay for the data and then it's all good. Poach off them and you're doing the USDF (and all its paying members) a disservice.
    "Relinquish your whip!!"



  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by yaya View Post
    So instead of charging $20 for a Lifetime scorecheck, GMO members now have to pay $75 to become a Participating Member in order to see their lifetime scores.

    Or just go to Centerline Scores for free!

    (wow, greedy much, USDF?)
    Not greedy at all. Simply collecting what they need to maintain the information. No one was volunteering at the USDF to compile this information! Nor pay for the hardware and software to support it.

    And if you want a cheap membership that gets you in, support your local GMO and get a membership to the USDF through them.
    "Relinquish your whip!!"



  17. #37
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    Jan. 13, 2003
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    And on the GMO level - I purchased a LIFETIME # for the ESDCTA. A few years ago they decided that Lifetime members have to pay a $20.00 fee every year. I'm still the same person who shelled out a large sum of money years ago why should I pay a fee every year now?

    And as far as accessing records for previous years - this isn't being processed by staff - the computer program does it - so why do we have to pay any additional fees?
    Summit Sporthorses Ltd. Inc.
    "Breeding Competition Partners & Lifelong Friends"



  18. #38
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    velvet i usually agree with you - but the information is not owned by USDF - it is PUBLIC info...... and it does dressage no good to be so opaque.....



  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velvet View Post
    Not greedy at all. Simply collecting what they need to maintain the information. No one was volunteering at the USDF to compile this information! Nor pay for the hardware and software to support it.

    And if you want a cheap membership that gets you in, support your local GMO and get a membership to the USDF through them.
    Derid already pointed out that Group members are not allowed to access the information

    in fact
    "It was discussed that GMs would not have access to historical score results with the new system, even by payment of a fee. "

    another quote from the meeting notes
    Last edited by SGray; Oct. 5, 2012 at 02:19 PM. Reason: formatting
    Nothing says "I love you" like a tractor. (Clydejumper)

    The reports states, “Elizabeth reported that she accidently put down this pony, ........, at the show.”



  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by SGray View Post
    Derid already pointed out that Group members are not allowed to access the information

    in fact
    "It was discussed that GMs would not have access to historical score results with the new system, even by payment of a fee. "

    another quote from the meeting notes
    But that can be changed, easily, from the USDF side. Just have to lobby the right people.
    "Relinquish your whip!!"



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