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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnwood View Post
    You are plain wrong. Of course they have gotten close even succeeded ..to the point that close enough its too close.

    Senator Tony Avella , Into 86A is sponsored by Council Member Melissa Mark-Viverito. NYClass has managed to solicit somewhere in the 500,000 dollar range for their electric car's and people just keep donating money. No car to show for it .. no actual abused horses saved and cared for.

    Can you imagine what 500,000 dollars could have done to save and protect the truly needy and destitute?

    Here is a list of the places who have implemented exotic animal circus/bans. http://www.ad-international.org/anim...?id=281&ssi=10

    Feigning dumb and pretending like its not happening is no different then signing their petitions and attending their protests you are not neutral you are aiding them.
    If the carriage horse trade has not been banned in NYC, then they haven't succeeded. As for people donating money to the electric car project, it's their money, why does it bother you?

    Yes, I am fully aware how much $500,000 could help in other ways, but again, people have the right to donate their money where they choose. My personal preference would be to people who seriously need it.

    "Feigning dumb"? Is a comment like that really necessary? I don't sign their petitions and certainly don't attend any protests. Not sure why you feel you have to make assumptions.

    "Here is a list of the places who have implemented exotic animal circus/bans."

    Have you even looked at that list? Most of the bans are either for certain animals or wild animal use in circuses. I personally don't think it's right to catch a wild animal and then turn it into a circus performer. Hand raising an animal would be different.

    Very few of the places listed have a full ban on circus animals, so it's hardly a cause to believe the HSUS or PETA are that much closer to banning all use of horses, despite what you and Bluey want to believe.
    Proud owner of a Slaughter-Bound TB from a feedlot, and her surprise baby...!
    http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e350/Jen4USC/fave.jpg
    http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e3...SC/running.jpg



  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenm View Post
    "Here is a list of the places who have implemented exotic animal circus/bans."

    Have you even looked at that list? Most of the bans are either for certain animals or wild animal use in circuses. I personally don't think it's right to catch a wild animal and then turn it into a circus performer. Hand raising an animal would be different.

    Very few of the places listed have a full ban on circus animals, so it's hardly a cause to believe the HSUS or PETA are that much closer to banning all use of horses, despite what you and Bluey want to believe.
    Why is capture more heinous than captive raising? Does the age of the animal at the time of capture make a difference? If so, why? If not, why not?

    But your statement "I personally don't think it's right..." captures the heart of the argument. THEY don't think it's right to keep animals at any time for any purpose. Since this is a not a widely held view they "chip away" at the edges. Sometimes it's called the "Camel's Nose Theory." In any event protestations of not intending a total ban are just like Slick Willie saying "I didn't have sex with that woman."

    Zealots are never to be trusted...except to act as zealots.

    G.
    Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão



  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by CarrieK View Post
    It's not all about puppy mills, you know. There are many communities with breed-specific legislation. In the example below, breed-specific legislation is anti-dog; punishing the breed and not the deed, in a community which allows dog ownership it makes a sweeping declaration which restricts its residents' freedom of choice.

    I've run across some legistaion which does not name the breed but says all breeds which have a "propensity" to be vicious. So there go your shepherds and dobermans and rotties and, if people are honest, your bitey little jack russels and yorkies (which in my experience are two of the nastiest breeds out there; haven't met one that hasn't snarled or worse), whatever their lawyer can argue has a propensity.

    Michigan State University College of Law Breed Specific Legislation

    Example:

    Citation: GROSSE POINTE WOODS, MI., MUNICIPAL CODE §§ 6-94 - 6-95 (2008)

    Summary: The municipal code of Grosse Pointe Woods, Michigan, makes it unlawful for any person to own, harbor or keep any pit bull terrier. Any dog determined to be a pit bull terrier by a court shall be destroyed or removed from the city.


    Ordinance Text in Full:

    Sec. 6-94. - Vicious dogs and other vicious animals prohibited.


    (a) Keeping pit bull terriers prohibited. Because of the great inherent danger to the public health, welfare and safety, no person shall own, harbor or keep any dog commonly described as a pit bull terrier within the city. The term "pit bull terrier," as used in this section, shall be defined as any of the following:

    (1) A bull terrier breed of dog.
    (2) A Staffordshire bull terrier breed of dog.
    (3) An American Staffordshire bull terrier breed of dog.
    (4) An American pit bull terrier breed of dog.
    (5) A dog of mixed breed or of other breed than the breeds listed in this subsection, which breed or mixed breed is known as a pit bull dog or pit bull terrier and has the appearance and characteristics of being predominantly of any of the breeds listed in this subsection or any combination thereof.

    Any such dog shall be impounded by an animal warden and held until a determination is made by a court of competent jurisdiction that the animal is a pit bull terrier. The court shall order that any dog determined to be a pit bull terrier shall be destroyed or removed from the city.
    If people cannot raise and train responsible canine citizens of any breed, what else can a city do? I don't happen to think it's fair, but unfortunately the thousands of people who don't train their dogs to behave are making life difficult for people who can be responsible.

    My 10 lb Pom runs in the dog park with all kinds of "vicious" dog breeds and I don't worry about it all because I know the owners wouldn't be there if their dogs were not well behaved, and well trained. Any time a dog does get even slightly out of line, it's quickly put back on a leash and restrained.

    There are no laws forcing people to be responsible dog owners, and I think it's unfortunate that certain breeds are getting a bad rap, but you can't blame city officials for wanting to protect the citizens. Blame the dog owners who knowingly get a dog breed with a reputation to be vicious yet choose to allow the dogs to do as they please.

    Breed legislation wouldn't be necessary if people weren't so irresponsible. This is not the same thing as RARAs wanting to ban use of horses. It's not even close.
    Proud owner of a Slaughter-Bound TB from a feedlot, and her surprise baby...!
    http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e350/Jen4USC/fave.jpg
    http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e3...SC/running.jpg



  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnwood View Post
    You are plain wrong. Of course they have gotten close even succeeded ..to the point that close enough its too close.
    There are all kinds of ways to measure success.

    A ban is one way.

    Harassing a group of people until they're bankrupt from fighting back is another.
    Brothers and sisters, I bid you beware
    Of giving your heart to a dog to tear.
    -Rudyard Kipling



  5. #65
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    Nov. 2, 2001
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    Quote Originally Posted by JSwan View Post
    There are all kinds of ways to measure success.

    A ban is one way.

    Harassing a group of people until they're bankrupt from fighting back is another.
    On until they throw in the towel.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mozart View Post
    Personally, I think the moderate use of shock collars in training humans should be allowed.



  6. #66
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    Oct. 18, 2000
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    Yup.

    This is a nice fact sheet that touches on the differences between the movements.

    http://njaes.rutgers.edu/pubs/publication.asp?pid=FS753

    It's free to download.

    The animal rights movement hijacked the animal welfare movement. Again, these are two VERY different philosophies and the AR movement has successfully co-mingled to two terms.

    But they are not the same thing. One can be a vociferous advocate for animal welfare, yet completely reject the extremes of the animal rights movement. The trouble is - there is no national organization to donate to except the American Humane Association - but some people may not care for them either.
    Brothers and sisters, I bid you beware
    Of giving your heart to a dog to tear.
    -Rudyard Kipling



  7. #67
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    This is where I think it gets to be a mish mash.
    You are absolutely correct - it is the people that mess up these dogs. The problem is how far do you go in making it "safe".
    How do you expect a dog not to act like a dog in certain situations? They do what they are bred/trained to do.
    My problem with it is that it's usually the dog/horse/cat .....pet of choice that pays the price because some people are not that smart.
    We have become a disposable society - if the dog/cat/horse doesn't work we get rid of it - sell it - give it away - take it to the pound - take it to the auction - whatever that choice is.
    Instead of really thinking it through and making the best decision for all. If we make a mistake it's oops - quick get rid of it.
    The animal pays the price - not us. No I am not advocating that animals be classified differently but they should be treated with the respect that any living thing deserves.

    Quote Originally Posted by jenm View Post
    If people cannot raise and train responsible canine citizens of any breed, what else can a city do? I don't happen to think it's fair, but unfortunately the thousands of people who don't train their dogs to behave are making life difficult for people who can be responsible.

    My 10 lb Pom runs in the dog park with all kinds of "vicious" dog breeds and I don't worry about it all because I know the owners wouldn't be there if their dogs were not well behaved, and well trained. Any time a dog does get even slightly out of line, it's quickly put back on a leash and restrained.

    There are no laws forcing people to be responsible dog owners, and I think it's unfortunate that certain breeds are getting a bad rap, but you can't blame city officials for wanting to protect the citizens. Blame the dog owners who knowingly get a dog breed with a reputation to be vicious yet choose to allow the dogs to do as they please.

    Breed legislation wouldn't be necessary if people weren't so irresponsible. This is not the same thing as RARAs wanting to ban use of horses. It's not even close.



  8. #68
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    Dec. 21, 2008
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    Quote Originally Posted by pezk View Post
    It's not only about BSL in communities. The ins companies are doing a pretty good job of denying homeowners ins to people with certain breeds of dogs. The last time I saw the ins co list, it's up to 50 breeds that the ins cos are banning. They along with local govt and HSUS are eliminating our right to own what breed we prefer.
    The horse people don't care about the dog people and the dog people don't care about horses. Everyone sees their own little world. It's too bad. If all animal owners gave a d___ then animal ownership would not be under attack on many fronts.
    People have their head in the sand. When they finally wake up, it will be too late. Your "best friend" will be eliminated.
    When we bought a farm in MO several years ago the insurance agent came out to view the property to insure. We had 2 dogs at the time a Husky/Shep mix and a Lab/ Rott mix( not an aggressive bone in her body, unless you were a rabbit or a snake). He asked what breeds they were and when I mentioned the Lab/Rott mix he said "I didn't hear that". Seems we could be denied insurance if we kept the dog. Thankfully he could see her temperament and just put her down as a Lab mix.



  9. #69
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    Jun. 27, 2005
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    KY
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    Quote Originally Posted by candyappy View Post
    Seems we could be denied insurance if we kept the dog. Thankfully he could see her temperament and just put her down as a Lab mix.
    And there you have another example of interfering with animal ownership which has nothing to do with HSUS or PETA.

    ************************
    \"Horses lend us the wings we lack\"



  10. #70
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    Dec. 31, 2000
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    El Paso, TX
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    Quote Originally Posted by luvmytbs View Post
    And there you have another example of interfering with animal ownership which has nothing to do with HSUS or PETA.
    And HSUS does not support BSL.



  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by cowgirljenn View Post
    This! I believe they started out with good intentions (even PETA looooong ago). And they did good work. But sadly most of them have morphed into animal rights groups.

    And if you own or ride a horse, you do NOT support animal rights. The animal welfare movement believes we should be able to use animals: for food, for clothing and other products, and for entertainment/recreation. The movement promotes the humane care and treatment of those animals. In other words, if we're going to use animals, we must care for them humanely.

    Animal rights, on the other hand, believes that all animals should have the same rights as humans. AND that means we cannot use them in any way - no eating, no wearing, no testing, no riding, and no entertainment. They should rather animals go extinct than be subjected to the horrors of use by humans. Before you tell me how wrong I am - I've met and talked to some of the founders of the animal rights movement. These things came straight from him.

    And before you scream because I mentioned 'animal testing' - look at your own life. Any medications or medical procedures you've ever taken/undergone were first developed and tested using animals. I do think there is gratuitous use of animal testing on certain products, but I also think many of us own our health and sometimes even our lives to the testing that was done using animals.

    You said this perfectly.



  12. #72
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    Insurance companies make money by selling policies. No sales, no income.

    The generate profits by controlling losses. If insuring a certain property will cost more than the market will bear for sale of the coverage then company will stop offering the coverage.

    Nothing personal, here. It's all actuarial numbers.

    The CDC did some work on dog bites. Here's the URL:

    http://www.cdc.gov/HomeandRecreation...ogbreeds-a.pdf

    Folks may not like these facts, but they are what they are.

    G.

    Former Regional VP-Claims, liability insurance company.
    Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão



  13. #73
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    "Requiring the sterilization of pit bulls does not have the same problems as traditional breed-specific legislation".
    Pam Rogers, The Humane Society of the United States, July 2006 Letter To Louisville Metro Council
    Please seriously consider reading *anything* other than the actual HSUS and PETA sites.

    Of course they're not going to tell you they support BSL.
    You jump in the saddle,
    Hold onto the bridle!
    Jump in the line!
    ...Belefonte



  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by luvmytbs View Post
    And there you have another example of interfering with animal ownership which has nothing to do with HSUS or PETA.
    No, I am sure it has to do with lawsuits from people bitten by " certain" dog breeds.

    HSUS= PETA ( and the like) they would rather I not have any animals at all, that they just " run free" as they were born to do. Just like the 2 deer we hit with our cars this year.

    You can defend them all you want and turn a blind eye to what their agenda really is. I prefer to see what has happened over the last 30 years or so of my life,and how they have changed in that time. That is proof enough for me.



  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by candyappy View Post
    You can defend them all you want and turn a blind eye to what their agenda really is. I prefer to see what has happened over the last 30 years or so of my life,and how they have changed in that time. That is proof enough for me.
    Where have I been defending them?

    My point is that not everything limiting our preference in animal ownership is being implemented by ARA's.

    ************************
    \"Horses lend us the wings we lack\"



  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by luvmytbs View Post
    No that wasn't me.

    But FYI, importing horses into Canada by a private individual for example requires taxes to be paid.

    If you have ever brought one of your KY horses to Canada, you should be familiar with the concept.
    I stand corrected then. Thank you

    The import Goods and Service tax is 5% which is the same I would pay for a picture, a piano or a belt.

    The tax goes to the government, not HSUS or some other group for a forever home



  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by JGHIRETIRE View Post
    How do you expect a dog not to act like a dog in certain situations? They do what they are bred/trained to do.
    My problem with it is that it's usually the dog/horse/cat .....pet of choice that pays the price because some people are not that smart.
    We have become a disposable society - if the dog/cat/horse doesn't work we get rid of it - sell it - give it away - take it to the pound - take it to the auction - whatever that choice is.
    Instead of really thinking it through and making the best decision for all. If we make a mistake it's oops - quick get rid of it.
    The animal pays the price - not us. No I am not advocating that animals be classified differently but they should be treated with the respect that any living thing deserves.
    So true. It's not the animal's fault, it's the humans fault, and it's sad the animals are the ones to pay the price.
    Proud owner of a Slaughter-Bound TB from a feedlot, and her surprise baby...!
    http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e350/Jen4USC/fave.jpg
    http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e3...SC/running.jpg



  18. #78
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    "Pam Rogers, The Humane Society of the United States, July 2006 Letter To Louisville Metro Council"

    LOL, Pam Rogers owns several dogs.
    Suppose Pacelle has not been able to pry them away from her yet.

    And Louisville Metro Animal Services is kick a$$, especially since we got a new (and very young) director last year.
    They seize a large number of pit bulls every year from illegal dog fighting which is rampant in certain areas of the city and the county.

    Undercover videos - no, not taken by any ARA's - exposed even law enforcement officers to participate in those ILLIGAL activities.

    I have seen pictures of some dogs they get out of those situations.
    It is Michael Vick in spades.

    And yes, Animal Control should neuter/steralize them on the spot, before they even consider adopting them out, if the animal has not been so mentally, physically damaged to prevent them from becoming a 'good citizen'.

    ************************
    \"Horses lend us the wings we lack\"



  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fairfax View Post
    The import Goods and Service tax is 5% which is the same I would pay for a picture, a piano or a belt.
    A friend of mine (Canadian) moved back to Canada after living in the U.S. for some time.
    He trailered his horse, which he had raised from being a foal, to the border and Canadian Customs charged him with a $2,500 import tax. A horse that was a back yard bred colored grade horse.

    Yup, he had to come up with the money somehow in order to continue his move back to Canada.

    So 6% tax on what?
    Who determind that horse's value - since really, it had no value,

    ************************
    \"Horses lend us the wings we lack\"



  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post
    Putting this in perspective, to animal rights extremists, as one poster here, that goes to their conventions told us, that we use animals and at times abuse them makes her wish "humans were wiped off this world".
    And she was serious.

    I think those feelings are mutual, but for opposite reasons.
    I feel the same way. I think some really need to be wiped off this world. I suspect we have similar reasons, Bluey
    Yes, I smell like a horse. No, I don't consider that to be a problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by DottieHQ View Post
    You're just jealous because you lack my extensive koalafications.



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