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  1. #461
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    Okay if those quotes are in their entire context which Parcells is not, THAT I do know, then you are talking about NUTJOBS championing a cause. THEY are nutjobs before they are anything else. Extremists, on the fringe.

    If they really have any power they are being used by others that actually have the power i.e. the developers in New york and the Carriage industry. Someone is using the nuts to do their dirty work. Follow the money and that is what I see.

    Of course as nutty as this country has become they probably do rule the roost.



  2. #462
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    No, I'm talking about Animal Rights activists. I'm in my 50's. I've been following animal issues since I was in high school. The publications of HSUS used to be extremely forthright about their animal elimination policies. Very obvious. But that doesn't help the donations, so they eliminated that language.

    Wayne Pacelle said what he said. He publicly admits he has no animal bonds.

    When asked if he envisioned a future without pets, “If I had my personal view, perhaps that might take hold. In fact, I don’t want to see another dog or cat born.” ----Wayne Pacelle quoted in Bloodties: Nature, Culture and the Hunt by Ted Kerasote, 1993, p. 266.

    “I don’t have a hands-on fondness for animals…To this day I don’t feel bonded to any non-human animal. I like them and I pet them and I’m kind to them, but there’s no special bond between me and other animals.” ---Wayne Pacelle quoted in Bloodties: Nature, Culture and the Hunt by Ted Kerasote, 1993, p. 251.

    QUOTES FROM HUMANE SOCIETY OF THE UNITED STATES MANAGER JOHN ("J.P.") GOODWIN:

    “My goal is the abolition of all animal agriculture." ---JP Goodwin, employed at the Humane Society of the US, formerly at Coalition to Abolish the Fur Trade, as quoted on AR-Views, an animal rights Internet discussion group in 1996.

    "We will never, ever, ever work with anyone who helps the FBI stop the A.L.F.” ---JP Goodwin, “Fur Wars Heat Up. A.L.F. is on the Warpath! No Compromise, Issue 4, Fall 1996.

    "We’re ecstatic," (of the fire that did almost a million dollars of damage and could have killed a caretaker family sleeping on the premises.) ---J.P. Goodwin, ALF Spokesman, Deseret News (Utah), Mar. 11, 1997.
    Last edited by Anne FS; Oct. 26, 2012 at 11:54 AM. Reason: fixed typo



  3. #463
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunridge1 View Post
    Okay if those quotes are in their entire context which Parcells is not, THAT I do know, then you are talking about NUTJOBS championing a cause. THEY are nutjobs before they are anything else. Extremists, on the fringe.
    Pacelle is head of HSUS. That's not on the fringe. That's extremely mainstream.



  4. #464
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    Quote Originally Posted by luvmytbs View Post
    But they don't.

    You and bluey are dilusional.
    I wish I was wrong. I have given you cases and you call me dilusional.

    This is part of the problem Unless some individuals see it in their own back yard they refuse to believe it is happening anywhere else. There was a time when a "rescue" with motives i.e. property acquisition was also denied by many posters.

    Now..first hand they can see how the NYC carriage horses have a smear campaign against them OVER REAL ESTATE.

    The US is filled with stories where counties have "paid a bargain base price" for private property for the community good...and then sold it to a developer for a profit thereby cheating the original owner.

    What would make anyone think that "animals" would be any different.

    This is why we say "Follow the Money:

    Try selling a skinny horse in California or Oregon at public auction.

    And yes...agents do charge individuals. We have cases before the courts right now. When they re adjucated I will print the results.

    Your eyes must be pretty strained by now.

    When should I expect that 13 year old school yard girl "sigh"?

    Maybe next post from you?



  5. #465
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    Quote Originally Posted by luvmytbs View Post
    Signs (rules) are everywhere we go in life.
    They mean nothing if they are not enforced.


    And you have seen that happen with your own eyes? Anyone ever been charged?
    Don't think so. Not in my corner of the world.




    Been there, done that.
    Best I ever got: "Let's hope someone will buy the horse and feed it."
    .
    The Chavez auction in NM is a great example. Four horses suffering overnight or even days, and left laying on the ground thrashing, and the auction owner and livestock inspector ignore it, until forced by an animal welfare group to shoot the horses.



  6. #466
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anne FS View Post
    “We have no ethical obligation to preserve the different breeds of livestock produced through selective breeding. One generation and out. We have no problem with the extinction of domestic animals. They are creations of human selective breeding.” Wayne Pacelle, Humane Society of the United States, Animal People, May, 1993.

    "It is time we demand an end to the misguided and abusive concept of animal ownership. The first step on this long, but just, road would be ending the concept of pet ownership.” Elliot Katz, President “In Defense of Animals,” Spring 1997.

    “In the end, I think it would be lovely if we stopped this whole notion of pets altogether.” Ingrid Newkirk, People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PeTA), Newsday, 2/21/88.

    "But as the surplus of cats and dogs (artificially engineered by centuries of forced breeding) declined, eventually companion animals would be phased out, and we would return to a more symbiotic relationship – enjoyment at a distance.” Ingrid Newkirk, People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PeTA), The Harper’s Forum Book, Jack Hitt, ed., 1989, p.223.

    “Let us allow the dog to disappear from our brick and concrete jungles–from our firesides, from the leather nooses and chains by which we enslave it.” John Bryant, Fettered Kingdoms: An Examination of A Changing Ethic Washington People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals, (PeTA), 1982, p. 15.

    “We are not terrorists, but we are a threat. We are a threat both economically and philosophically. Our power is not in the right to vote but the power to stop production. We will break the law and destroy property until we win.” Dr. Steven Best, speaking at International Animal Rights Gathering 2005. The Telegram (UK) July 17, 2005.
    A bunch of 10-30 yr old quotes taken out of context. The most recent (at the bottom) was at an AR gathering (not HSUS or even PETA). Nothing even remotely recent.



  7. #467
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetsmom View Post
    A bunch of 10-30 yr old quotes taken out of context. The most recent (at the bottom) was at an AR gathering (not HSUS or even PETA). Nothing even remotely recent.



    Honey, when people tell you who they are, you really ought to believe them.

    The leopard does not change it's spots.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mozart View Post
    Personally, I think the moderate use of shock collars in training humans should be allowed.



  8. #468
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    You're not paying attention. These are the views of these people. They have learned that to keep people like you and all the "animal lovers" sending in huge amounts of cash they can't say such virulent things in public anymore, so they've changed their rhetoric in public. But simply look at their proposed legislation. Banning breeding for instance. In every proposed law there is NO exception for breeding police dogs, military dogs, assistance dogs. NONE. It often gets added by alert people. You think ARs weren't hoping that wouldn't be caught?

    Many ARs are against the use of dogs in military and assistance work anyway.

    Think of the reality. All breeding banned. What happens in 50 years? Or sooner?

    What about the case in VA where PETA workers picked up a truck full of dogs from a shelter and killed them all within hours?

    http://www.theatlantic.com/health/ar...nimals/254130/

    As I've said, I've been reading HSUS publications and Animals Agenda (my library used to get that magazine) for decades. You think they changed their views by magic? That they were lying maybe all those years ago? They didn't change. They believe that stuff. I had a HSUS calendar one year that was full of "we must eliminate pets" comments every month. Wish I'd saved it. I don't believe their objectives changed one bit. I think that the internet spreads their comments too fast and they were alienating the fools who give them money, so they two-face it now.

    Anybody on here remember the posts during Hurricane Katrina? A poster here on COH had photos of truckloads of brand-new dog crates being piled into dumpsters by HSUS workers. They didn't want "stuff," they wanted cash, baby. They had no use for dog crates.



  9. #469
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alagirl View Post


    Honey, when people tell you who they are, you really ought to believe them.

    The leopard does not change it's spots.
    Excellent post. Much more to the point than my long-windedness. Excellent.



  10. #470
    Bluey is offline Schoolmaster Premium Member
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    Go to humanewatch.org and you can read many first hand accounts of people these past few years, right to today, that go to their seminars and conventions.

    Many, that used to also not believe what animal rights extremists really are, have reported back with what is being said, appalled, including the same old quotes some just don't want to believe.
    Last edited by Bluey; Oct. 26, 2012 at 05:25 PM.



  11. #471
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    Exactly. ARs *want* you to believe that was then, this is now. It's another tactic to pretend that they're not anti-animal.

    Remember a few years ago on here the CO proposed legislation was discussed to officially (legally) changed the terminology from animal owner to (I think it was) Caretaker? Lots of "animal lovers" said why not? we're for it, and it was being considered, until the real animal supporters pointed out that legally a Caretaker is not the same thing at all. IOW, you buy a horse, you would be legally obligated to care for that horse for the rest of its life. You could never sell it or re-home it, you couldn't even make the decision in serious illness to euthanize it. You were its Caretaker and therefore were legally obligated to keep it alive no matter the cost, no matter the suffering.

    Buy a horse for trail riding that turns out to be unsuited but would make a dynamite jumper or dressage horse? Too bad. Doesn't matter what the horse would enjoy doing. You can't sell it because you technically don't "own" it because "owning" animals is no longer PC.

    The AR people were like, "oops, does it really mean all that??? Why, laws-a-mercy me."

    Yeah, it really meant all that. And they knew it, too. They just counted on the people who refuse to believe ARs are anti-animal.



  12. #472
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anne FS View Post
    Exactly. ARs *want* you to believe that was then, this is now. It's another tactic to pretend that they're not anti-animal.

    Remember a few years ago on here the CO proposed legislation was discussed to officially (legally) changed the terminology from animal owner to (I think it was) Caretaker? Lots of "animal lovers" said why not? we're for it, and it was being considered, until the real animal supporters pointed out that legally a Caretaker is not the same thing at all. IOW, you buy a horse, you would be legally obligated to care for that horse for the rest of its life. You could never sell it or re-home it, you couldn't even make the decision in serious illness to euthanize it. You were its Caretaker and therefore were legally obligated to keep it alive no matter the cost, no matter the suffering.

    Buy a horse for trail riding that turns out to be unsuited but would make a dynamite jumper or dressage horse? Too bad. Doesn't matter what the horse would enjoy doing. You can't sell it because you technically don't "own" it because "owning" animals is no longer PC.

    The AR people were like, "oops, does it really mean all that??? Why, laws-a-mercy me."

    Yeah, it really meant all that. And they knew it, too. They just counted on the people who refuse to believe ARs are anti-animal.
    Thank you for your informative posts.

    Please keep them coming. There are some nibblers here and you will never change their minds (possible medical condition caused by eye rolling strain) but for many othesr who are just reading for the first time it is what they need to learn so they can do their own research.



  13. #473
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fairfax View Post
    Try selling a skinny horse in California or Oregon at public auction.
    Auction in Ontario, California:

    http://www.savinghorsesinc.com/uploads/Valiant.jpg

    http://www.savinghorsesinc.com/uploa...died080108.jpg

    "SHI received a phone call from Inland Valley Humane Society alerting us to 2 emaciated horses standing on an Ontario auction lot. The officer stated that she would not remove the horses immediately as it was not a life threatening situation. Indeed it was!! A volunteer was sent to the lot and she was horrified. Humane Society was contacted again by several people requesting that these two horses be seized immediately. They were not. A 48 hour notice had been served on the auction owner, to bring in a vet. If that was not done the horses would not have been seized until Monday 8/4. We were afraid that the horses would die before then. SHI decided to act. Friday morning volunteers arrived at the auction lot and the horses were transported to safety.


    Sadly the gelding, whom we named “Matthew the Valiant” went down in the trailer. His body was already in organ failure, and he had to be euthanized upon arrival at the foster home, the home of a veterinarian. VALIANT hung on for as long as he could. Sadly this rescue was too late for him. We apologized to him that human beings had done this to him.

    We are happy to say that the 20 year old mare, although very thin, is making a good recovery. We have named her VALOUR. She is one brave little mare."

    -----------------------------------

    MIKE'S AUCTION, Mira Loma, California

    "On Saturday September SHI went to Mike’s auction, Mira Loma to rescue 2 horses.
    A 7 year old thoroughbred named Keelhauled was rescued for $125. With no other private bidders interested in him, this horse would have ended up at slaughter.

    The other horse a 25 year old ex-racehorse, whom we named COURAGE was the most emaciated, horse at auction. His teeth were in very bad shape, contributing to his emaciation. This horse walked fine through auction He cost us $25.( His racing name was Lucifer).

    The next day, Dr. Ross was to pick him up and take him to her house for the 30 day QT period. Sadly the horse was in worse shape, unable to walk, was showing obvious signs of a neurological disorder. Dr. Ross recommended euthanasia, which was performed on Monday morning. Animal Control were sent out to see the horse before he was euthanized, and they denied any wrong doing by the person who dumped this poor horse at auction. Courage was sent to the state lab for a full necropsy."




    Quote Originally Posted by Fairfax View Post
    And yes...agents do charge individuals. We have cases before the courts right now. When they re adjucated I will print the results.
    What agents?

    If you are talking USDA or AG Dept. agents, they have NO police powers, nor can they file charges.

    ************************
    \"Horses lend us the wings we lack\"



  14. #474
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    A bunch of 10-30 yr old quotes taken out of context. The most recent (at the bottom) was at an AR gathering (not HSUS or even PETA). Nothing even remotely recent.
    No, not all taken out of context. You just refuse to admit so.

    How about what Wayne wrote and post on his own blog, which I quoted the paragraph in it's entirety...not out of context.
    You jump in the saddle,
    Hold onto the bridle!
    Jump in the line!
    ...Belefonte



  15. #475
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    Quote Originally Posted by luvmytbs View Post
    Auction in Ontario, California:

    http://www.savinghorsesinc.com/uploads/Valiant.jpg

    http://www.savinghorsesinc.com/uploa...died080108.jpg

    "SHI received a phone call from Inland Valley Humane Society alerting us to 2 emaciated horses standing on an Ontario auction lot. The officer stated that she would not remove the horses immediately as it was not a life threatening situation. Indeed it was!! A volunteer was sent to the lot and she was horrified. Humane Society was contacted again by several people requesting that these two horses be seized immediately. They were not. A 48 hour notice had been served on the auction owner, to bring in a vet. If that was not done the horses would not have been seized until Monday 8/4. We were afraid that the horses would die before then. SHI decided to act. Friday morning volunteers arrived at the auction lot and the horses were transported to safety.


    Sadly the gelding, whom we named “Matthew the Valiant” went down in the trailer. His body was already in organ failure, and he had to be euthanized upon arrival at the foster home, the home of a veterinarian. VALIANT hung on for as long as he could. Sadly this rescue was too late for him. We apologized to him that human beings had done this to him.

    We are happy to say that the 20 year old mare, although very thin, is making a good recovery. We have named her VALOUR. She is one brave little mare."

    -----------------------------------

    MIKE'S AUCTION, Mira Loma, California

    "On Saturday September SHI went to Mike’s auction, Mira Loma to rescue 2 horses.
    A 7 year old thoroughbred named Keelhauled was rescued for $125. With no other private bidders interested in him, this horse would have ended up at slaughter.

    The other horse a 25 year old ex-racehorse, whom we named COURAGE was the most emaciated, horse at auction. His teeth were in very bad shape, contributing to his emaciation. This horse walked fine through auction He cost us $25.( His racing name was Lucifer).

    The next day, Dr. Ross was to pick him up and take him to her house for the 30 day QT period. Sadly the horse was in worse shape, unable to walk, was showing obvious signs of a neurological disorder. Dr. Ross recommended euthanasia, which was performed on Monday morning. Animal Control were sent out to see the horse before he was euthanized, and they denied any wrong doing by the person who dumped this poor horse at auction. Courage was sent to the state lab for a full necropsy."






    What agents?

    If you are talking USDA or AG Dept. agents, they have NO police powers, nor can they file charges.
    AC agents can notify the county AND THEY MAY PROCEED WITH CHARGES WITH AN ATTENDING POLICE OFFICER. It is up to the AC agent. Some auctions seem to skip through it and others don't.

    I am not familar with the case you cited however the fact they did not press charges means it may NOT have been dropped off by the owner...there could be a variety of circumstances.

    I will forward your information to the lawyers for six cases where there are charges against the person selling the horse.

    Thank you. I appreciate the help

    I just checked the documents on one case as I am familar with Mike's....low end auction and one of the charges is from there.

    Great news...maybe it can be thrown out.



  16. #476
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fairfax View Post
    Most famous case was Axel and Dale Huber. They were charged when they took their old non producing mares to the auction (4 of them) and yes...they were under weight. They were charged with Abuse, Christine Matthews took two thin TB's to a sale in Florida and was charged.

    This is done to stop individuals from using auctions especially if kill buyers are present. It is all done to intimidate and create and aura of fear
    The fact that 27 horses starved to death on their property and almost 100 were seized that were starving, along with other animals on the property had nothing to do with it I guess...simply that they took 4 non producing broodmares that were a little thin to auction and the mean AR people wanted to intimidate them...yeah, right.
    What is it with you always defending animal abusers and minimizing what they do??? You make the pro slaughter/anti HSUS side look like you really care about animal welfare...NOT.



  17. #477
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    I am sorry you are unfamilar with the case. It was a horrible case of abuse and I applaud the ladies who set a NEW STANDARD for evaluating, moving horses in their groups etc.

    That said. It was documented that Axel had been charged five years prior by the ASPCA for dropping off four starving (their words) 30 plus year old Arabian mares. He received a six month probation and a $1000 fine.

    He had (right or wrong) used the Innisfail Horse auctions (and general auctions) to sell horses for the money to purchase feed. After his charges he never used the sales auction again.

    I have never defended him. Period.

    I helped coordinate the Okotoks Alberta feed drive for the horses and we were able to raise money for 500 bags of rolled oats and 800 tonnes of Timothy Alfalfa Hay.

    We, as an industry applauded the CAHR who went to bat to sort through the registration mess.

    I did not directly work with that case as it was in excellent hands and the volunteers were dedicated and amazing.

    My views and defence of some seizures is from my involvement going back to the Rex Ellis case in California...The Bentwood case in Waco Texas, the Albertsons case in Amarillo Tx, and numerous others. I learned how it should be done, why there are protocols to follow and I also learned first hand about "other agenda's" and why they become evident when protocols are not followed and there is a demand to act quickly, even if unsafe for the horses.

    The Axel case used existing protocols AND also due to the number of horses...pregnant...stud colts etc..they also devised some pretty awesome strategies so NO horses would suffer.

    Many seizures especially if they are high profile are NOT for the welfare of the horse...they are for the welfare of donations and advertising.

    Getting back to the Axel case...it was interesting that several individuals who wanted these Polish horses for free or next to nothing (we will take them right now and save "you girls" having to continue to feed them) were also the same people who lined up with the karona group to try and get the Maryland Polish horses.



  18. #478
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fairfax View Post
    I am sorry you are unfamilar with the case. It was a horrible case of abuse and I applaud the ladies who set a NEW STANDARD for evaluating, moving horses in their groups etc.

    That said. It was documented that Axel had been charged five years prior by the ASPCA for dropping off four starving (their words) 30 plus year old Arabian mares. He received a six month probation and a $1000 fine.

    He had (right or wrong) used the Innisfail Horse auctions (and general auctions) to sell horses for the money to purchase feed. After his charges he never used the sales auction again.

    I have never defended him. Period.

    I helped coordinate the Okotoks Alberta feed drive for the horses and we were able to raise money for 500 bags of rolled oats and 800 tonnes of Timothy Alfalfa Hay.

    We, as an industry applauded the CAHR who went to bat to sort through the registration mess.

    I did not directly work with that case as it was in excellent hands and the volunteers were dedicated and amazing.

    My views and defence of some seizures is from my involvement going back to the Rex Ellis case in California...The Bentwood case in Waco Texas, the Albertsons case in Amarillo Tx, and numerous others. I learned how it should be done, why there are protocols to follow and I also learned first hand about "other agenda's" and why they become evident when protocols are not followed and there is a demand to act quickly, even if unsafe for the horses.

    The Axel case used existing protocols AND also due to the number of horses...pregnant...stud colts etc..they also devised some pretty awesome strategies so NO horses would suffer.

    Many seizures especially if they are high profile are NOT for the welfare of the horse...they are for the welfare of donations and advertising.

    Getting back to the Axel case...it was interesting that several individuals who wanted these Polish horses for free or next to nothing (we will take them right now and save "you girls" having to continue to feed them) were also the same people who lined up with the karona group to try and get the Maryland Polish horses.
    Well, knowing that he had several starving horses that he tried to dump at auction, that he was convicted on, and then later had 27 dead horses/100 starving horses, doesn't exactly make me think they jumped the gun in charging the first case...and I would bet the horses at the first auction, were more than "just a little underweight".



  19. #479
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    Actually no. The auctions tended to be up to November and so he used the money for the feed for other horses.

    He can definitely be condemned for over production, unrealistic views as to the worth of the horses and he did turn down some good offers.

    His property was visited enough times by individuals wanting to see the horses that there were few comments.

    The year this came down the pike they were out of money. Period. I have been told Axel was in Germany trying to raise some. Dale was the one left to ???? hard to feed when you don't have any.

    There are too many facts so your " I would bet " is totally without merit.



  20. #480
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fairfax View Post
    Actually no. The auctions tended to be up to November and so he used the money for the feed for other horses.

    He can definitely be condemned for over production, unrealistic views as to the worth of the horses and he did turn down some good offers.

    His property was visited enough times by individuals wanting to see the horses that there were few comments.

    The year this came down the pike they were out of money. Period. I have been told Axel was in Germany trying to raise some. Dale was the one left to ???? hard to feed when you don't have any.

    There are too many facts so your " I would bet " is totally without merit.

    I guess the desired outcome is to eliminate the big bad sale to make a buck of Dobbins. Too bad, so sad, that the money is needed to pay the hay man (another evil person, not selling hay all day long for 4 bucks a bale) and the horses are now put on the back 40...eventual they will die a natural death....
    Quote Originally Posted by Mozart View Post
    Personally, I think the moderate use of shock collars in training humans should be allowed.



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