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  1. #321
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post


    You need to learn to differentiate between a perfectly good process to use some horses one more time, that doesn't need banning as the process it is, from someone, somewhere, abusing any animals, which can happen any place.
    The current system is inhumane and provides unregulated, unwholesome, adulterated animals for human consumption.



  2. #322
    Bluey is offline Schoolmaster Premium Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Echo View Post
    The current system is inhumane and provides unregulated, unwholesome, adulterated animals for human consumption.

    According to who, animal rights extremists?

    If you find something missing, go ahead and work to make it better, not ban, that is illogical.

    Inhumane?
    Work to get it to suit your idea of what is humane.

    Unregulated?
    Are you kidding me? Horse slaughter was some of the most regulated of all slaughter, as per the inspectors that worked there, regardless of all that animal rights extremist propaganda.

    Adulterated?
    You really think there are not protocols following regulations of all kinds, some clearly against what your animal rights extremist propaganda want to make you believe, as my friend told me, that was testing every horse in the line?

    As I keep mentioning, this thread is not about slaughter.
    You are in the wrong one for this debate.
    This is about how animal rights extremists are working people like you to follow them, as they are lobbying all along to eventually eliminate all uses of animals, one at the time, by less than honest propaganda, as you yourself reflect believing and repeat on your post above.



  3. #323
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    I haven't read this thread because I know some people see a conspiracy behind every tree......

    Ain't gonna happen. 1) there's to much $$ involved in the animal business.

    And 2) The American's I know would let you draft their son into the army but show up to take their animal and they would meet you at the door with a shotgun.



  4. #324
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    Quote Originally Posted by CFFarm View Post
    but show up to take their animal and they would meet you at the door with a shotgun.
    That would be so me.

    ************************
    \"Horses lend us the wings we lack\"



  5. #325
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    Quote Originally Posted by CFFarm View Post

    And 2) The American's I know would let you draft their son into the army but show up to take their animal and they would meet you at the door with a shotgun.
    Good point.
    Brothers and sisters, I bid you beware
    Of giving your heart to a dog to tear.
    -Rudyard Kipling



  6. #326
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    Quote Originally Posted by CFFarm View Post
    I haven't read this thread because I know some people see a conspiracy behind every tree......

    Ain't gonna happen. 1) there's to much $$ involved in the animal business.

    And 2) The American's I know would let you draft their son into the army but show up to take their animal and they would meet you at the door with a shotgun.
    You are the poster child for the extreme elements in Animal rights and animal welfare.

    You only go by "your friends or local area".

    State after state is in an "individual battle:

    Look at what the extreme group tried in Oregon...Horses as companion animals..they wanted to license ALL horses and also they must be picked up after if the defecate. It had to be over turned and tossed out (Newport) and it was an expensive battle.

    When good people do nothing..bad things occur.

    Rewilding: The transfer of Wolves from Canada to Yellowstone national park. It was NOT a success. They moved the solves under the advice of environmentalists AND animal welfare groups DURING THE WINTER. The wolves had no lay of the land and they could not track with the expertise they would normally use. All were monitored and almowst NINTY PERCENT DIED THE FIRST YEAR. ALL OF THE PREGNANT FEMALS.

    When the environmentalists were confronted..they just shrugged and stated "it was a learning experience"...they would not take any responsibility.

    That is why we will no longer export wolves to rewild.

    My family donated a great deal of land to the grizzly trail conservatory. This is in the porcupine hills HOWEVER..the land is to be USED BY RANCHERS...it only stops the oil drilling "in that area". We are NOT against oil as my grandfather founded Barons Oil in the 40's.

    We have an attachment on the donation that if for ANY REASON, ranchers are not allowed access to the property for the next 100 years it will revert back to the family.

    Ranching is renewable...

    I sure had to laugh at yet another young lady from Florida who stated in her school report that cattle ranching was bad as it was NOT a renewable resource. Cutting trees was bad as it, too, was NOT a renewable resource. Building cars WAS a renewable resource as it used material from old cars.

    This came from a young lady who is part of the Bubbling Midnight Madness Fan Club (A saddlebred mare I own).

    It started with a young lady who saw her picture and asked to have more information on her to do a school report. It is for a grade six class...(they graduate and the new children take over). That is how I received the report so I was able to have Bubbles answer and make some corrections to the report...of course it was approved by the teacher.

    In SMALL ways...all of us can help correct misinformation.

    As for ECHO...she is only driven by her guilt. That actually makes her more suseptible to mantra of the animal rights groups.

    She will do nothing but spout decades old information (never challenged by lovey and her group) and will try and manipulate each thread back onto her agenda. And yet, she has NEVER ONCE volunteered to help or monitor any group..or she would have made that very clear.

    As was suggested...rather than ban...make a difference OR come up with a realistic solution that can have some immediate impact...and don't blame the breeder....Stacey from HSUS was quoted that the reason the seizure had to take place was to show that this person as a breeder was everything that was wrong with animal ownership. DO NOT BELIEVE FOR ONE MOMENT that they support the ongoing breeding of any animals.

    I have had individuals say...HSUS will NOT ask for removal of all animals...how would they (HSUS) exist?...EASY...they target seals, kangaroos, and everything becomes an international, governed NOT by Americans but International Groups to SAVE THE ???? and that is what they actually want the funds for. Why? Because domestic animals are too easy to be held accountable for...i.e. when they rescue and kill them...whereas no one really knows IF they saved a seal..so the money goes into their pockets.



  7. #327
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post
    According to who, animal rights extremists?

    If you find something missing, go ahead and work to make it better, not ban, that is illogical.

    As I keep mentioning, this thread is not about slaughter.
    You are in the wrong one for this debate.
    This is about how animal rights extremists are working people like you to follow them, as they are lobbying all along to eventually eliminate all uses of animals, one at the time, by less than honest propaganda, as you yourself reflect believing and repeat on your post above.
    This thread is all about trying to discredit anyone or any organization that opposes horse slaughter as RARA.

    If those that support it had worked to make it humane, the horse slaughter facilities would still be in operation here in the United States. The 'make me' approach is what ended the operations.
    Just as no one can force someone to care about horses, we will never be able to force those in the slaughter system to care about the horses.
    No regulatory authority in the United States requires any documentation of a horses medical record. Less than 3% are ever tested in any given year for drug residues and one year. Foreign EID documents are allowed to be created by horse dealers concerning a horses medical history. That is unconsionable. United States veterinarians aren't even required to keep a horses medical history for more than a couple years and horse owners don't have a clue what is and isn't allowed in food animal production because they aren't bred and raised as food animals here. Have you seen the drug listings in the EID's? A typical horse owner wouldn't even be able to relate the drugs legal name to the drugs name that is commonly used.



  8. #328
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    Quote Originally Posted by Echo View Post
    Are they? What part do you believe is against the law? It is not against the law to slaughter your own animals for personal use. It is very difficult to get regulatory authorities to act in real animal abuse cases. Too often the animal has to be down before they will do anything.
    Some here are bent on aligning anyone opposed to horse slaughter as a RARA and defend the current horse slaughter system as 'humane'. According to some, everyone or any organization opposed to horse slaughter is a RARA - burning buildings and setting animals free, which is absurd.
    If this is true, than everyone that is pro slaughter, is a pro slaughter 'extremist' and animal abuser.
    What about all of the laws that are broken in the current horse slaughter system?
    How can it be legal to take unregulated, unwholesome, adulterated, horses and fabricate foreign EID or Equine Identification Documents concerning a horses medical history and knowingly terrorize a human food chain with adulterated meat?
    Some here defend horse slaughter and never once tried to alter the system to be humane for the horses. They had many many years to do so. They don't care. They just want the current system and those opposed to horse slaughter to 'work' on making it more humane.

    Propose a system that the majority of horse owners would support. Everyone opposed isn't a RARA anymore than those that are pro-slaughter are 'slaughter extremists'. The current system is inhumane and terrorizes a human food chain with adulterated meat. Attempting to align everyone opposed as a RARA just makes some of you a 'slaughter extremist' or animal abuser.



    http://thepersianhorse.wordpress.com...t-make-arrest/

    http://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/H...162676766.html
    “The law that I worked so hard on with my friends in Miami to pass is being disregarded,” Crist says. From the article you posted.

    According to the article you posted it is against the law. Did you read the article?

    The current system is not inhumane. Does abuse happen? Yes. Ending slaughter will not end abuse. Abuse happens everywhere.

    If you are looking for a solution then push to have current laws enforced. Adding more laws which are not enforced is not going to solve anything.
    Last edited by wonderhorseguy; Oct. 12, 2012 at 12:35 PM.
    I support equine meat processing as an option for those who choose to use it.



  9. #329
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    Echo..what have you done to help enforce the current laws? Provide some information showing you have contacted those who are law makers, legislators etc and have VOLUNTEERED to be of assistance to end the "abuse" as you call contact with horses.

    Have you done ANYTHING?...other than carry out your absolve yourself of any responsibility mantra

    Transportation has been acknowledged by all sides, to be a problem. What have you done, yourself, to try and get enforcement of the laws before the horses come to Canada and are rejected and sent back?

    The total percentage of returned trucks is about 4% and is down by over 20% in the past year. Still high but a major improvement.

    (Stats provided by the vets office, Coutts, Alberta Canada)

    Your one trick pony...adulterated meat ...is becoming old, worn and very tired.

    What have YOU done to support changes?

    Let me give you an answer about testing. It is done HERE IN CANADA. That is why there is no testing done before the horses are shipped. If the auction/seller/transporter is given a clean passport that will be reflected in the import however the animals ARE STILL TESTED to confirm that.

    Transportation is still considered to be an issue. What are the ABUSE issues you continue to state but not name?



  10. #330
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    Interesting read about the coyotes and cats.
    I've had my own run ins with coyotes. I have lost a couple cats to them and almost my german shepherd dog.

    Just recently in Eastern Washington they killed a wolf pack that had been praying on cattle. They were no longer hunting
    what they were supposed to hunt - the cows were too easy.
    There was an uproar about the pack being taken out but in this case I believe it was the "correct" thing to do.

    We also have a couple sightings of Grizzlies back in the Cascades. Some people are really upset as they camp/hike/hunt up there. I think the bears deserve a chance.

    It is sad that so much of all this seems all or nothing - not much of a middle ground as far as animal rights vs. animal welfare - there is a difference. No I don't think the Animal Rights groups hide what they want.

    Quote Originally Posted by ldaziens View Post
    I have tried to read most of this, and I would beg all of you to watch "If A Tree Falls", because it is a great movie and absolutely relevant to this discussion.

    http://www.amazon.com/If-Tree-Falls-...f+a+tree+falls

    I am very interested in reading reactions to this movie and discussion about how it relates to this discussion.

    For me, my perceptions and views now that I am over 40 and living on a small farm are very different from my views as a suburban raised college student who believed that food came "from the store".

    My epiphany regarding animal rights came when I was researching a group called Project Coyote, who flew in to train the animal control officers and head up community meetings in New Orleans. They caught my attention because the information they were spreading via the local news did not at all match the scientific coyote research that I was aware of by Robert Timm of University of California, Hopland Research Center.

    Anyway, I came across what I call the "Crazy Cat Lady" paper that was presented at a Wildlife Management Conference --
    http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/vi...dm_wdmconfproc

    I started to read it and thought, "No Way - this woman is a crazy loon". But, as I checked out each wild assertion; she was right. The paper is extremely "cat-centric", but the writer points out that Project Coyote is brought to you by folks straight out of radical environmentalism and eco-terrorism; whose big plan is Pleistocene Rewilding. I feel 100% confident that the vast majority of Project Coyote donors and the local governments allowing Project Coyote to come in and "train" police and animal control officers and to write coyote legislation have never heard of Pleistocene Rewilding.

    For those that think that animal rights activists are not writing and enacting legislation, Project Coyote absolutely dominates coyote legislation and policy throughout the country. And that legislation does not allow for lethal control of habituated coyotes. I am not a coyote hater; I'm not even a hunter; and I use livestock guardian dogs on my farm to deter predators. So, I am pretty much a left leaning, animal loving, tree hugger. However, I have a very real problem w/ a group that is "educating" people and lying about the risks of habituated coyotes; which are much more of a problem in urban / suburban areas than in the country.

    Anyway, it is important to understand the animal rights players and their agendas; because these groups absolutely are enacting legislation and raising tremendous amounts of money to use to lobby politicians and to "educate" the public.

    Somebody mentioned the Irish Republican Army and Sinn Fein; which is the model for Earth First! and the Earth Liberation Army. But, at least, if you were supporting Earth First! or Sinn Fein; you knew you were also supporting the ELA & the IRA. The animal rights groups are NOT transparent about their agendas.



  11. #331
    Bluey is offline Schoolmaster Premium Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Echo View Post
    This thread is all about trying to discredit anyone or any organization that opposes horse slaughter as RARA.

    If those that support it had worked to make it humane, the horse slaughter facilities would still be in operation here in the United States. The 'make me' approach is what ended the operations.
    Just as no one can force someone to care about horses, we will never be able to force those in the slaughter system to care about the horses.
    No regulatory authority in the United States requires any documentation of a horses medical record. Less than 3% are ever tested in any given year for drug residues and one year. Foreign EID documents are allowed to be created by horse dealers concerning a horses medical history. That is unconsionable. United States veterinarians aren't even required to keep a horses medical history for more than a couple years and horse owners don't have a clue what is and isn't allowed in food animal production because they aren't bred and raised as food animals here. Have you seen the drug listings in the EID's? A typical horse owner wouldn't even be able to relate the drugs legal name to the drugs name that is commonly used.
    Wrong again.

    This thread is to show those, that still don't believe who certain animal rights extremist groups are, that there are more and more questions being asked about how they operate and what they really are doing.
    If you read the OP article you would find that is so.

    The ones inconvenienced by those facts, as you seem to be, are the ones here wanting this to be about slaughter and most anything else but the reality of who those animal rights extremist groups they defend so vigorously really are.



  12. #332
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    No one on here has defended any extremists.



  13. #333
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    LIKE

    Quote Originally Posted by Dispatcher View Post
    No one on here has defended any extremists.



  14. #334
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    Quote Originally Posted by JGHIRETIRE View Post
    It is sad that so much of all this seems all or nothing - not much of a middle ground as far as animal rights vs. animal welfare - there is a difference. No I don't think the Animal Rights groups hide what they want.
    I actually think the majority of people are susceptible to getting riled up by biased propaganda -- marketing and advertising very effectively use all that is known about the human mind to influence; but I think most people are also capable of taking a deep breath and listening to one another and reaching a consensus -- at least we used to be any way.

    My concern is that money dictates policy even more than it ever has; and these groups are collecting money from people and companies who are ignorant about where that money is going. Most people donate to the humane society to help puppies and kittens in animal shelters with no clue where the money ends up.

    I also get extremely frustrated/angry by the ham-handedness of government entities like USDA / APHIS. The final straw for me was the USDA / APHIS proposed rule change to the Animal Welfare Act redefining pet stores -- please note that this has nothing to do with actual retail pet stores which expose large numbers of animals to each other and to large numbers of the general public -- no, it turns out pet stores aren't regulated and small hobby breeders were exempt from USDA licensing and inspections, because they were defined as pet stores -- confused yet? The transcript of the stakeholder conference call just blew my mind as it was obvious the government officials had not actually bothered to think through any of the consequences of this new rule. You can read it here:
    http://www.saova.org/news/APHIS/Aphis_May_10_2012.pdf

    It should not have surprised me, since my intro to DC politics & the legislative process was temping in a lobbying office for one of the largest "garbage" companies. I thought it was so cool that they were working with the EPA drafting more stringent Clean Air Act rules for incinerators. A garbage company that wants to save the environment by making the air cleaner -- raising the bar; how wonderful. Forget it. They created legislation to raise the bar just high enough to force all of the mom & pop incinerators out of business; so they could buy them cheaply or just have them shut down.
    Disclaimer: Just a beginner who knows nothing about nothing



  15. #335
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    Quote Originally Posted by ldaziens View Post
    They created legislation to raise the bar just high enough to force all of the mom & pop incinerators out of business; so they could buy them cheaply or just have them shut down.
    It's called horizontal integration.

    This is what has happened in agriculture; followed by vertical integration.
    Brothers and sisters, I bid you beware
    Of giving your heart to a dog to tear.
    -Rudyard Kipling



  16. #336
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    When ever government regulates anything (banks, nuclear reactors, animal transport, environmental quality, airlines, power plants, food products, drugs, fire safety rules, etc.) there will be two classes of person:

    1. Winners

    2. Everybody else

    This is a fundamental fact that few people ever think about. You can bet that HSUS thinks about it and keeps it foremost in their minds as they lobby for laws and regulations that promote their agenda.

    Right now there's a bunch of hoopla over "corporate persons" and their rights to lobby government. I don't understand why folks get so wrapped around the axel on this. If government proposes to do something, or nothing, that is going to grossly benefit, or impair, a Billion Dollar enterprise would not the people running that enterprise be fools, or worse, to not attempt to influence that action or non-action?

    The power to regulate is the power to destroy.

    G.
    Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão



  17. #337
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    Quote Originally Posted by JGHIRETIRE View Post
    ROFLMAO - it's perfect - I can so picture it. A bunch of old ladies with their pearls.
    Nope, because pearls come from oysters....Those poor abused oysters....
    http://community.webshots.com/album/548368465RfewoU[/url]

    She may not have changed the stars from their courses, but she loved a good man, and she rode good horses….author unknown



  18. #338
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    Quote Originally Posted by JSwan View Post
    It's called horizontal integration.

    This is what has happened in agriculture; followed by vertical integration.
    I hope that people on all sides will take some time to talk to local small farmers and educate themselves about where the food we eat comes from. IT DOES NOT COME FROM THE STORE

    In my non expert and limited experience, there are lots of farmers that I have gotten to know who are pragmatic problem solvers who care about the quality of life of their animals, care about the environment, are open to consider the possibility of a better way. I think it is impossible to address animal welfare without at least making the effort to understand the state of Agriculture in this country. On a personal level, I deeply regret that I spent my youth worried about saving whales and rainforests while family farms disappeared

    Anyway, I would have continued on blissfully ignorant; but I happened to grab "Animal, Vegetable, Miracle" by Barbara Kinglsolver at the airport. I thought it was fiction, and I really liked her novel, "Poisonwood Bible". I ended up with a surprise that was really informative and readable. Then I read "The Omnivore's Dilemma" by Michael Pollan where I learned about Joel Salatin. I watched Food, Inc. I went out to visit the horse farm of my former vegetarian friend and learned about the ALBC and heritage animals. And, then I joined a lot of Yahoo Groups to learn about pastured poultry, heritage turkeys, gulf coast sheep, and livestock guardian dogs. I am no farmer, but living on a farm has given me a glimpse "behind the curtain" and a whole lot of respect for farmers and the challenges they face.
    Disclaimer: Just a beginner who knows nothing about nothing



  19. #339
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    Yes. Totally agree. We used to be able to talk things over. Now it seems it's more about who has to be right.

    Quote Originally Posted by ldaziens View Post
    I actually think the majority of people are susceptible to getting riled up by biased propaganda -- marketing and advertising very effectively use all that is known about the human mind to influence; but I think most people are also capable of taking a deep breath and listening to one another and reaching a consensus -- at least we used to be any way.

    My concern is that money dictates policy even more than it ever has; and these groups are collecting money from people and companies who are ignorant about where that money is going. Most people donate to the humane society to help puppies and kittens in animal shelters with no clue where the money ends up.
    ^^^^
    In spades.

    I also get extremely frustrated/angry by the ham-handedness of government entities like USDA / APHIS. The final straw for me was the USDA / APHIS proposed rule change to the Animal Welfare Act redefining pet stores -- please note that this has nothing to do with actual retail pet stores which expose large numbers of animals to each other and to large numbers of the general public -- no, it turns out pet stores aren't regulated and small hobby breeders were exempt from USDA licensing and inspections, because they were defined as pet stores -- confused yet? The transcript of the stakeholder conference call just blew my mind as it was obvious the government officials had not actually bothered to think through any of the consequences of this new rule. You can read it here:
    http://www.saova.org/news/APHIS/Aphis_May_10_2012.pdf

    It should not have surprised me, since my intro to DC politics & the legislative process was temping in a lobbying office for one of the largest "garbage" companies. I thought it was so cool that they were working with the EPA drafting more stringent Clean Air Act rules for incinerators. A garbage company that wants to save the environment by making the air cleaner -- raising the bar; how wonderful. Forget it. They created legislation to raise the bar just high enough to force all of the mom & pop incinerators out of business; so they could buy them cheaply or just have them shut down.
    ^^^^
    They talk about fair market competition, where exactly did that all go.
    There isn't much of anything left that's mom and pop anymore.

    You must have been so incredibly disappointed by your experience in DC.

    I had a small taste here in Washington schools. We had a little thing called the WASL. Where's the head:desk emoticon when you need it.

    What I see happening is that any land large enough to support horses is going to be bought up and paved over or built on all in the name of progress. It will be so expensive only a few will be able to afford it.
    I'm sure that RARAs will do their best but I'm not sure they will win in the end. Pollution will also be a part of it as well. That's all about money as well. You have to keep your horses out of a salmon spawning creek to protect the salmon but apparently, with enough money, you can build a housing development right next to the same salmon spawning creek.::



  20. #340
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    You really have to wonder where they come up with these terms!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by JSwan View Post
    It's called horizontal integration.


    This is what has happened in agriculture; followed by vertical integration.



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