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  1. #181
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    Oct. 6, 2002
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    Quote Originally Posted by trubandloki View Post
    We are talking about a buyer who went thru the trouble of proclaiming flaps are two different lengths and says they had a professional tell them this.
    The is no way said professional would not notice the slits if they were there prior.
    Yes, but if she argues "those weren't there when the saddle was in MY possession" doesn't that perfectly explain why she didn't complain about them?!

    And if this is a totally normal thing on a used saddle (as many of us have indicated it is). Why would she mention it? I mean, she didn't mention the saddle is made of leather or has stirrup bars or has wear on the flaps or has a cantle and a pommel-- because all of that is standard/expected on a saddle. If flocking holes are what you expect on a saddle, why would you mention them as damage?
    ~Veronica
    "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
    http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/



  2. #182
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    Oct. 6, 2002
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    I think the OP is being honest. I think the buyer had simple buyer's remorse and knew how to game the system. I'd be frustrated at eBay if I was the OP. But the difference is-- I also understand how it works and I would have acted differently/had different expectations going in. And from eBay's POV, it's very much a "he said, she said" situation. They don't know who is telling the truth and who put the holes there. There's no reason they should believe OP over the buyer-- from eBay's POV it's the OP who has been uncooperative (didn't upload the requested information timely). I would probably find differently if I was the factfinder-- but I'm a horse person and I've only heard the OP's side of the story. Burden of proof is currently with the OP. The person deciding this is not horsey-- and frankly that'd likely be the situation if she took it to small claims court. SHE'D have to prove those holes weren't there before the saddle shipped out and that it devalued the saddle. Unless she has authenticated "before" photos without holes, can establish a chain of custody for the box and opening it in front of some neutral party with him/her witnessing the "after" holes-- OP's not really in a great position. She can ARGUE the holes were made by the buyer, but how can she prove it? She can't.
    ~Veronica
    "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
    http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/



  3. #183
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    Jul. 5, 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by NCRider View Post
    Go OP! It's people like us (not the OP) who can't be bothered to fight and who give up because it's easier, who allow asshats like the buyer in this situation and companies like eBay to get away being inconsiderate bullies.
    My grandfather was like you. If people tried to take advantage of him, he had plenty of time and stubbornness to go to the mat and he usually won.

    I really really really hope you win.
    I agree^^ Go OP. "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil (or asshattery) is that good men do nothing"

    My husband is a retired police seargent. And although he has PLENTY of other things to occupy his time, he does NOT suffer fools and will methodically and doggedly pursue the proper outcome of everything ranging from the important (nursing home neglect) down to the trivial (stoopid ebayers). Since he is professional, detailed, organised, informed and commands respect it is rare that he does not triumph. In fact, the only incident that comes to mind is when he ended up with a bootlegged Beatles album from a prolific ebay store, and the FBI told him they had bigger fish to fry.


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  4. #184
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    Apr. 1, 2006
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    Can you call the buyer's saddle guy, the one that presumably cut the holes in it, and get something from him that says yes, he did work on the saddle?

    This sounds like a very good case for small claims if the Ebay route is a dead end. And please, if you can fight this, do it.



  5. #185
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    Sep. 26, 2010
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    After reading this thread I definitely won't sell anything on ebay every again, or use paypal for that matter. What a mess.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  6. #186
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    Aug. 9, 2000
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    Weeks Poultry Colony - West
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    Quote Originally Posted by elctrnc View Post
    Not quite. You might "try on" the pants, but you don't go and hem the pants....and then try to return them for some unconfirmed reason. If you hemmed the pants, they are no longer in new condition and have been "used."
    The only store I know that takes back things that have already worn or altered is Nordstrom.
    Libby

    There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness". - DAVE BARRY


    1 members found this post helpful.

  7. #187
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    Sep. 2, 2005
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    Upstate NY
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    Quote Originally Posted by INoMrEd View Post
    The only store I know that takes back things that have already worn or altered is Nordstrom.
    I think LL Bean will too.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  8. #188
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    Nov. 16, 2004
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    NE Indiana
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    Quote Originally Posted by Calamber View Post
    Contact your United States Senator and Congressman, criminal action is criminal action and they (eBay) are tredding the line in promotion of consumer fraud. I think someone might care. Take a line from the NC grandfather who stuck to the high road and took it to the limit. No, don't bother talking to a crook about their criminal practices, talk to someone who might be able to do something about internet fraud and crime. By all means let the crooks know that you are taking it over their head, that is, contact eBay and let them know what you are going to do. That is the only way I ever got anywhere with anything of this sort. When AT & T years ago tried to defraud me of $600, I did not bother bashing my head against a brick wall with some dodo on the phone. I contacted my Senator and Congressman and they sent it on to the committee or oversees the Federal Communications Commission. Then I got a call from a divisional supervisor and got my money back. Done.
    I think the Attorney General would care. This is a lot of money, and is fraud - and ebay promotes fraud with their policies. I'd file a claim not only against the buyer, but against ebay.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  9. #189
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    Jul. 5, 2007
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    Beside Myself ~ Western NY
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    Quote Originally Posted by trubandloki View Post
    I think LL Bean will too.
    and Title Nine Sports



  10. #190
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    Jun. 29, 2004
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    I am coming late to this thread, so sorry you are having to go through this OP. This has convinced me to close out my ebay and paypal accounts though and I think I will include this thread as my reason why. My saddle was the only time I have ever sold anything on ebay, and now it is my last.



  11. #191
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    Sep. 28, 2001
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    Kentucky
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    Does anyone have an email address of where to send a complaint to ebay? I have been following this thread and I am totally disgusted by ebay's policies. I am going to think long and hard before ever putting any thing of value up on ebay again.



  12. #192
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    Feb. 18, 2011
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    Phillipsburg Ohio
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    Quote Originally Posted by rothmpp View Post
    They have tried to sneak this through, but there is an opt-out clause, so long as you send a letter as outlined in the update to the user agreement to their legal department. One of the reasons that I always read the updates before agreeing to them. You must do this before November 9, 2012 if you currently have an account

    BTW, PayPal is doing the same thing, but also has a opt-out option. Due date is December 1 for PayPal.



    How exactly is that you think that eBay can ruin your credit? OP has refunded (against her will, but refunded) buyer. So long as her PayPal account has a positive balance, she does not have an issue.

    It is this attitude that you should accept what eBay (or any company for that matter) says that is just - wrong - when it is obvious (and granted we are only getting one side of the story) that OP has been harmed in this transaction. If as sellers we just throw our hands up in the air and take whatever eBay does to us laying down, then we cannot expect any changes in our favor.

    Honestly, your rant sounds like you had a major issue with eBay/PayPal, and if YOU ended up ruining YOUR credit over it, that's your own mistake.
    Hi,
    Nope I am am a happy ebay power seller, never had an issue. I know how it works though. The seller has a negative paypal balance for the amount of the refund. She plans to keep both saddle and money and not return the money that ebay refunded. They absolutely can and will come after her for that money. As to the "opt out" clause- it takes you to instructions on how to close your account. You can only opt out by no longer doing business on ebay. If you don't close your account, you are automatically opted in. It isn't am easy place to be a seller, but as long as you play by ebay rules- the buyer is always right- it is the best venue available for a small seller.



  13. #193
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    Oct. 13, 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by shayaalliard View Post
    Hi,
    Nope I am am a happy ebay power seller, never had an issue. I know how it works though. The seller has a negative paypal balance for the amount of the refund. She plans to keep both saddle and money and not return the money that ebay refunded. They absolutely can and will come after her for that money. As to the "opt out" clause- it takes you to instructions on how to close your account. You can only opt out by no longer doing business on ebay. If you don't close your account, you are automatically opted in. It isn't am easy place to be a seller, but as long as you play by ebay rules- the buyer is always right- it is the best venue available for a small seller.
    Also a power seller.

    OP NEVER said she was going pay back her PayPal balance. As you should know, PayPal, owned by eBay, will refund the buyer and leave the seller's balance negative.

    OP in this situation has never said she is NOT going to pay back the balance to PayPal, in fact she has said they have told her that she has 30 days to pay it back (I don't know how that works - I could never afford to leave a negative balance since I ship through that account).

    The Opt-Out is, according to their own policy updates, only in reference to the Agreement to Arbitrate, NOT the whole user agreement. It is pretty clear that they have put this update in to keep members from being able to participate in any class action suit that may be filed. If you have not exercised your opt-out rights, you can only go to arbitration with any dispute.


    ******

    From PayPal -

    Opt-Out Procedure.

    You can choose to reject this Agreement to Arbitrate ("opt out") by mailing us a written opt-out notice ("Opt-Out Notice"). For new PayPal users, the Opt-Out Notice must be postmarked no later than 30 Days after the date you accept the User Agreement for the first time. If you are already a current PayPal user and previously accepted the User Agreement prior to the introduction of this Agreement to Arbitrate, the Opt-Out Notice must be postmarked no later than December 1, 2012. You must mail the Opt-Out Notice to PayPal, Inc., Attn: Litigation Department, 2211 North First Street, San Jose, CA 95131.

    The Opt-Out Notice must state that you do not agree to this Agreement to Arbitrate and must include your name, address, phone number, and the email address(es) used to log in to the PayPal account(s) to which the opt-out applies. You must sign the Opt-Out Notice for it to be effective. This procedure is the only way you can opt out of the Agreement to Arbitrate. If you opt out of the Agreement to Arbitrate, all other parts of the User Agreement, including all other provisions of Section 14 (Disputes with PayPal), will continue to apply. Opting out of this Agreement to Arbitrate has no effect on any previous, other, or future arbitration agreements that you may have with us.


    *****

    From eBay:

    Opt-Out Procedure

    You can choose to reject this Agreement to Arbitrate ("opt-out") by mailing us a written opt-out notice ("Opt-Out Notice"). For new eBay users, the Opt-Out Notice must be postmarked no later than 30 days after the date you accept the User Agreement for the first time. If you are already a current eBay user and previously accepted the User Agreement prior to the introduction of this Agreement to Arbitrate, the Opt-Out Notice must be postmarked no later than November 9, 2012 . You must mail the Opt-Out Notice to eBay Inc., c/o National Registered Agents, Inc., 2778 W. Shady Bend Lane, Lehi, UT 84043.


    The Opt-Out Notice must state that you do not agree to this Agreement to Arbitrate and must include your name, address, and the user ID(s) and email address(es) associated with the eBay account(s) to which the opt-out applies. You must sign the Opt-Out Notice for it to be effective. This procedure is the only way you can opt-out of the Agreement to Arbitrate. If you opt-out of the Agreement to Arbitrate, all other parts of the User Agreement and its Legal Disputes Section will continue to apply to you. Opting out of this Agreement to Arbitrate has no effect on any previous, other, or future arbitration agreements that you may have with us.

    ****

    Bolding mine on both agreements

    I don't disagree that the system is set up to favor the buyer rather the seller. I also agree that it is still a good market for small sellers who do not want or can't afford a storefront. I still think that eBay will cut off their nose to spite their face. They have lost site of the fact that while as sellers we need the buyers, eBay needs the sellers, as we are the only ones that pay fees.

    We need people like the OP, who appear to have a legitimate complaint, and have eBay and PayPal not following their own rules and agreements, to pursue these claims to hope for any change. I, for one, do not want to discourage her from pursuing this by scaring her with inaccurate information.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  14. #194
    Join Date
    Aug. 14, 2004
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    7,538

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    I think that while I sympathize with the OP - i don't think she can have it both ways - she got the saddle back so she needs to refund the seller. keeping the $$ and the saddle is pretty dishonest in my book. Flocking slits are common and do NOT devalue a saddle.

    Also, we are hearing only one side of the story - so while it is fun to rail against paypal/ebay and the buyer, we have no idea what the other side of the story is.

    and finally: I have bought and sold saddles on ebay and had only 1 issue when i bought a saddle..... the saddle was advertised as a used saddle in good condition. It was a kieffer. when i got it the synthetic tree was literally crumbling apart and broken. I of course immediately filed a claim and was able to get my $$ back .

    The abuse i took from the seller was really ridiculous.... they accused me of melting the tree, using the saddle so much that i wore it out, sent me abusive emails etc etc. etc.

    i was GLAD that i was able to get my $$ back. So remember that that policy is there for a reason! it protects buyers from scammer sellers.......

    good luck OP.



  15. #195
    Join Date
    Oct. 26, 2007
    Location
    San Jose, Ca
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    Default My story - BEWARE OF EBAY / Paypal!

    I agree, that the OP can't keep the $$ and the saddle. She is in a rock and hard place now – Paypal should force the buyer to take the saddle back. But as we have learned here Paypal does not do the right thing!

    In my case, the buyer had filed a complaint because the shipping was taking too long (it was on a ship to Australia – and sent the method he requested), and Paypal was going to refund the buyer ALL of the $$, even though I had receipts and proof that the bicycle had been shipped, and would arrive shortly. Paypal was going to attempt to debit my account before the scheduled delivery date. – That is what prompted me to remove my bank account etc so that couldn’t take my money. (by the way, this was years ago, and it never showed up on my credit, and nothing happened besides a few emails from Paypal telling me to add money to my account).

    The buyer received his product (I had receipts!) but wouldn’t withdraw his claim – wanted the bike AND the money (like the buyer in the OP’s story, I think he knew how to work the system).

    Paypal was going to refund him, even though he had the bike, because they could not track the shipping ONLINE (but could verify with USPS on the phone, and I had shipping receipts / proof of delivery which I submitted to Paypal). Didn’t matter, it it doesn’t have an online tracking number – the buyer can file a complaint, and get the product and the money even if the seller has receipts.

    How fair is that!?! – Spread the word – small time sellers – Stay away from Ebay and Paypal!



  16. #196
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    Sep. 2, 2005
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    Upstate NY
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    I do not think the OP wants the saddle back at this point. So saying she can not have the money and the saddle is a mute point. She did not ask for the saddle back. And saying it being modified does not affect it is crazy. She sent a saddle with out slits and got back a saddle with slits. You can not return something after you have modified it.


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  17. #197
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    Oct. 6, 2002
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    Quote Originally Posted by trubandloki View Post
    I do not think the OP wants the saddle back at this point. So saying she can not have the money and the saddle is a mute point. She did not ask for the saddle back. And saying it being modified does not affect it is crazy. She sent a saddle with out slits and got back a saddle with slits. You can not return something after you have modified it.
    But she HAS the saddle and the money. So it's not a moot point. Right now she has both the saddle and the money in her possession.

    I bet you if you polled County saddle fitters under oath, at least 50% would have to say they sometimes cut slits to reflock and probably all of them would subsequently admit it doesn't substantially affect the value of the saddle. I don't prefer this be done to my saddle, but the reality is that it commonly is. Commonly enough that it does not significantly devalue the saddle even if it's not best practices for saddle fitting.

    Whether you think the buyer was right or wrong in allowing the slits to be cut (assuming for the sake of argument that it was the buyer who did it), I find it outragous that someone's telling the OP it devalues the saddle by $1000. You could have that entire piece of leather replaced by a master saddle fitter for a couple hundred backs. So, I'm sorry, there's no way the saddle is now devalued by $1000.

    If half the energy was sent getting the saddle resold as had been put into this thread, it would have been sold weeks ago. It's a very nice, popular model/size and it's completely resaleable even with the added flocking slits. Which, for the love of god, could be sewn shut by a leather repair person for under $20, I'm guessing... if they're so disconcerting in their current state!
    ~Veronica
    "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
    http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/



  18. #198
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    Oct. 2, 2012
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    Quote Originally Posted by trubandloki View Post
    If you used paypal and they file a complaint you will pretty much not have a choice but to return her funds.

    I wish you luck.
    Three weeks, one police report, several closed accounts and craploads of mental anguish later...

    Quote Originally Posted by vxf111 View Post
    But she HAS the saddle and the money. So it's not a moot point. Right now she has both the saddle and the money in her possession.

    I bet you if you polled County saddle fitters under oath, at least 50% would have to say they sometimes cut slits to reflock and probably all of them would subsequently admit it doesn't substantially affect the value of the saddle. I don't prefer this be done to my saddle, but the reality is that it commonly is. Commonly enough that it does not significantly devalue the saddle even if it's not best practices for saddle fitting.

    Whether you think the buyer was right or wrong in allowing the slits to be cut (assuming for the sake of argument that it was the buyer who did it), I find it outragous that someone's telling the OP it devalues the saddle by $1000. You could have that entire piece of leather replaced by a master saddle fitter for a couple hundred backs. So, I'm sorry, there's no way the saddle is now devalued by $1000.

    If half the energy was sent getting the saddle resold as had been put into this thread, it would have been sold weeks ago. It's a very nice, popular model/size and it's completely resaleable even with the added flocking slits. Which, for the love of god, could be sewn shut by a leather repair person for under $20, I'm guessing... if they're so disconcerting in their current state!
    A helmet saved my life.

    2014 goal: learn to ride like TheHorseProblem, er, a barn rat!



  19. #199
    Join Date
    Feb. 4, 2004
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    Having a sale gone wrong (ebay or otherwise) sucks, especially something big like a horse or saddle (we've had plenty of threads on both), and I feel so bad for the OP that this happened. This is a major loophole of ebay.

    The only real out I can see is if the buyer admitted to modifying the saddle (in any of the messages, maybe?) that would help the OP's case as it was not received in the same condition. At the same time, it's hard to imagine ebay letting the buyer keep the item and the money (they only do that when item is counterfeit), or asking her to ship it back to buyer (as awesome as that would be).

    I have had good luck as buyer and seller in resolving cases where the other party was really misbehaving by calling on the phone, in several cases ebay ate the cost, but nothing as big-ticket as the saddle, but worth the try.



    As for ebay generally, it is a huge sale site that processes probably thousands of transactions-gone-wrong every day, without being expert in all of the categories (it doesn't have an expert for every rare antique/artifact/collectible/sport it services). It really only has 2 options for claims:
    1. Make buyers keep items they claim are SNAD
    2. Make sellers accept returns of items claimed not SNAD
    Neither solution is great, #2 is probably safest as a policy (it doesn't encourage as much dishonesty).

    It is definitely riskier to buy/sell there than in person or at real stores, but I'm not sure what else they can do. They can't resolve he-said-she-said over whether an item arrived damaged or was damaged by a buyer or by a seller on return. They didn't see the saddle before and after, they are just hearing 2 sides of the story.



    FWIW I have had the most issues with items requiring fit. (Nothing as ballsy as the buyer described, with reflocking the saddle). But clothes etc. People try to squeeze into something that doesn't fit, break it, claim it arrived broken. Those are definitely the hardest things to buy/sell online.


    Keep us posted! I hope it works out for you!



  20. #200
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    Oct. 13, 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by mbm View Post
    i don't think she can have it both ways - she got the saddle back so she needs to refund the seller. keeping the $$ and the saddle is pretty dishonest in my book. Flocking slits are common and do NOT devalue a saddle.
    See, but seller never wanted both the saddle and the money. She wanted the money, but I think would've been okay with either/or in the long run, so long as it was not modified by the buyer.

    Assuming that the OP is telling the truth about the slits, I don't understand what is so difficult to get about this - whether or not the the slits devalue the saddle is irrelevant - it is NOT how the seller sent the item out. She is entitled to the item back in the original condition, unless she agreed to it's modification in an attempt to make it right. Anything else should null and void the item substantially not as described claim.

    Quote Originally Posted by mbm View Post
    So remember that that policy is there for a reason! it protects buyers from scammer sellers.......

    good luck OP.
    Sellers are only saying that honest sellers do not have the same protection from scammer buyers. That is really all I want, a similar level of protection.



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