[Nikki^]

Thats not exactly perfect Eq either. Rider, whoever it is, does not appear to be 14-16 years old either as are all these kids getting dissed.

I also get a little tired at all the "why does everybody ride bad" when somebody posts a thread like this complimenting some exceptional up and coming young riders...I wonder how those who rode back in "the good old days" as young teens would have liked to be the brunt of endless, public fault finding?

It sure is not like what it was "back then".

The rider is French. It was taken during the 1950's.

That's amazing EQ! Look at the angles. Look as the horse jumps and is putting the rider up in correct form. That's amazing! Better then laying on the neck looking like a praying mantis with stirrups way too long.

Here's one of Bill Steinkraus

http://69.89.31.130/~thehors5/thm/wp...inkraus_11.jpg

[iEquitate]

For those who wanted to see a video, CVIDTV posted one of Isabella Norton. I think she finished 8th or 9th?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otJkgCDowfA

[kmwines01]

I imagine every one of those riders you've posted photos of have some not so great photos as well. You can't catch everybody at a perfect angle. And I imagine those riders in those classes, particularly Lillie and Tori, have worked incredibly hard to reach perfection and will continue to. You can't evaluate perfect eq in the moment as somebody is jumping. You can only see a lot of those details in photos. Equitation should be based upon how effectively you work with your horse and manage that particularly horse. That seems to be a better end goal than just having a perfect position. Form follows function. If you have perfect eq but can't find 8 or can't get a horse to jump well it really doesn't matter that you look perfect.

[Nikki^]

Of course every rider isn't going to be perfect all the time over huge fences.

BTW, the picture of Lillie over that 3'6 jump is gorgeous! Love the leg and flat back. The hands look good and is going to follow the crest. Jumping w/o stirrups is very hard but Lillie makes it look easy.

[vxf111]

yes it was, and spurring the pony in the air occurs why?? because her leg is turned out. and that would be a position problem. She was actually doing the ponies in that picture not the short stirrup. All I was trying to point out is that the position a child has at 8 is far from a predictor of the future.

Time to nitpick a 8+ year old photo that didn't even necessarily clearly depict the evil for which it was held up as the example of all evil... again? Really?

Maybe the lesson is that the success a kid has at a young age can be a predictor for the future. IIRC she won plenty on ponies at a tender age and now appears to be in the top eschalon of riders mopping the floor with everyone in her teens. "Turned out leg" be dammned She could ride circles around me and most everyone else on this board on a donkey and deep down, we all know it.

[MHM]

Thank goodness Lillie and her trainers got the benefit of the BB wisdom then and now. Otherwise no doubt Lillie wouldn't be able to ride her way out of a paper bag.

[Tha Ridge]

Thank goodness Lillie and her trainers got the benefit of the BB wisdom then and now. Otherwise no doubt Lillie wouldn't be able to ride her way out of a paper bag.

I just love that the armchair jockeys here seem to know that she was "spurring the pony" from one photo taken from a front angle. I'd love to see photos of everyone else take from the front. I don't think your toes are pointing directly ahead.

[Lord Helpus]

No, I'm not hostile; I just get so tired of the four billion threads/week about how bad hunter/equitation riders are today, when they all come from people who aren't able to provide evidence that they are doing/have ever done things the "right" way. If someone thinks those at the top of the discipline are doing everything wrong, that's fine, but that person should be prepared to provide evidence that he/she is in fact qualified to judge those at the top today, and can show all of us the RIGHT way to do it. Otherwise, why bother posting here?

I do realize that there is a lot to be improved upon, but I also understand that I am not a professional, I do not ride at the top level of the sport (and never will), and therefore I am not qualified to berate those who are in fact winning at the top levels for their shortcomings, whatever those might be. I prefer to watch those who ride better than I do and find things to learn from them.

I would love it if one of the resident dinosaurs on this forum would actually post videos of the perfect old days so we can all see what perfection looks like. Because, according to the dinosaurs here, we will never see it in person.

I do not have any videos handy, but look for GM's book: Hunt Seat Equitation. There you will see many pictures of beautiful eq. with lovely releases.

I do not know when it became OK for a rider to "jump over her hands". I did not see this class, but I am guessing that is what the posters above saw when they mentioned "no release". The rider is a) jumping up the neck, b) not releasing appropriately or c) both.

It makes me crazee when I see riders whose shoulders are in front of their hands in midair.

I have never been a equitation rider, but this is me in 1964, and this is how most people rode back then.
http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/p...s_at_MSG-1.jpg

And this is me in 1981? 1982? trying to stay out of my horse's way after he makes a huge effort over this jump. The upper body is not correct, but I am still giving him a good release.
http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/p..._Pam_MSG-1.jpg

[wanderlust]

I do not know when it became OK for a rider to "jump over her hands". I did not see this class, but I am guessing that is what the posters above saw when they mentioned "no release". The rider is a) jumping up the neck, b) not releasing appropriately or c) both.

It makes me crazee when I see riders whose shoulders are in front of their hands in midair.

I'm the first in line to get annoyed when horses are getting stiffed in the mouth, but that's not happening here, for 2 reasons.

One, equitation horses as specialists, who jump flat and head-high naturally and don't require a big release. Look at the photos to the right... none of those horses are getting stiffed in the mouth. Not one.

Two, riders riding with much shorter reins and more forward hands. Because these horses don't really use their heads/necks, very little movement is required other than to move the hands down a bit towards the neck. Big releases not required.

And three, because these courses are indoors, and technical, with short turns, riders are necessarily keeping a solid contact with the mouth so they can land and turn.

These same kids then go ride the hunters that really use their heads/necks, and give a big release. They ride the jumpers and give releases appropriate for the jump. Don't believe me? Go find a video of Lillie doing jumpers or hunters. She is equally capable with a following hand, an auto release, or a crest release as appropriate and needed.

[Silk]

Lord Helpus...that phot from the early 80's is gorgeous!!!

[BAC]

Love your photos, LH, you have a wonderful lower leg. I'm getting nostalgic for the NHS at MSG.

[comingback]

Thank goodness Lillie and her trainers got the benefit of the BB wisdom then and now. Otherwise no doubt Lillie wouldn't be able to ride her way out of a paper bag.

Do you think if I post my picture and allow the group to tear it apart I could be the next Lillie Keenan??? Who knew it was that easy?!

Clearly my version of sarcasm

[MHM]

Do you think if I post my picture and allow the group to tear it apart I could be the next Lillie Keenan??? Who knew it was that easy?!

Sure! As long as you have the same talent, work ethic, resources, and trainers. Piece of cake!

[Tap2Tango]

I just love that the armchair jockeys here seem to know that she was "spurring the pony" from one photo taken from a front angle. I'd love to see photos of everyone else take from the front. I don't think your toes are pointing directly ahead.

Growing up my mom took tons of pictures of me and my ponies from where ever she was standing. The ones from the front...UGH!!!!!!!! So not flattering!! HAHA

[BigBayHanoMare]

As a hunter/jumper rider, I never could figure out how you guys memorized your tests - those last a lot longer. And all the different letters.

Oh that takes a while, but we also have time to practice and memorize (like, weeks or months!). Though when I first showed Intro B back in 2010, I was terrified of forgetting my test, I actually memorized it backwards as well as the right way. Just in case!

But give me only a few minutes to walk a course and then chuck me in there? No. Fricken. Way. I forget what I did 30 minutes ago, sometimes!

[PaintedHunter]

And this is me in 1981? 1982? trying to stay out of my horse's way after he makes a huge effort over this jump. The upper body is not correct, but I am still giving him a good release.
http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/p..._Pam_MSG-1.jpg

Oh my goodness, what a lovely photo - and LOOK at your horse's KNEES!

[Guin]

And this is me in 1981? 1982? trying to stay out of my horse's way after he makes a huge effort over this jump. The upper body is not correct, but I am still giving him a good release.
http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/p..._Pam_MSG-1.jpg

OMG! You're jumping in a top hat, and yet, you're still alive!

[vineyridge]

In Lord Helpus's 1981 photo, look at the horse's head position over the jump. Then compare the ones in the Equitation photos. The first is what, IMO, would be normal and would require a real release. The modern horses just look WRONG to me. Horses need to be able to balance with their heads and necks when "stretching" over jumps and preparing for touch down. JMO.

[Big_Grey_hunter]

In Lord Helpus's 1981 photo, look at the horse's head position over the jump. Then compare the ones in the Equitation photos. The first is what, IMO, would be normal and would require a real release. The modern horses just look WRONG to me. Horses need to be able to balance with their heads and necks when "stretching" over jumps and preparing for touch down. JMO.

Considering these horses are easily jumping very big, very technical courses with ease, I don't think they 'need' to stretch their necks down, regardless of whether you think it looks 'wrong'. And it's not modern horses, it's modern eq horses. They are bred, selected, and trained to have flat jumps

Look at how well Lillie Keenan adjusts her riding between the three rings. The release and her position is so different, depending on the course, the horse, and the ring.

Here's Lillie Keenan riding hunters
http://www.othfarm.com/news/?id=156
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lw...fq8vo1_500.png
http://hitsshows.com/images/2011/600...tial_jump1.jpg

And riding jumpers
http://horsesinthesouth.com/blog/wp-...enan005965.jpg
http://www.usefnetwork.com/images/ar...25/keenanz.jpg
http://s3.amazonaws.com/cmi-niche/as...jpg?1314214971

[vineyridge]

She is, without doubt a lovely rider who can do whatever the course and horse need. But I'm not seeing the head constrictions on the hunters or the jumpers. Why on equitation horses? Why would they be trained to jump like this, since it's clearly very unnatural. The jumpers have to be able to shorten, lengthen, and turn sharply and they do it with heads that aren't into their chests. In a way, it sort of reminds me of rollkur for dressage horses, who are so trained into their frame that they have lost the will to go in any other frame. Most of them can't even do a decent extended walk.

It all has to do with submission, as a horse on close contact loses a good part of his vision.

I'd also point out that 90% or more of the Big Equitation horses are imported WBs, and I'd almost bet the farm that no European WB breeder would ever breed for that jump. These horses are probably culls from breeding for the Olympic disciplines.