[katarine]

No TWH is encouraged with 'gaited dressage' to perform a running walk on a 10m circle.
Or a 15.
Or a 20.

So no one does it. No test asks for it. The tests that DO ask for a running walk only ask for it on a long diagonal.

You know, a straight line. ----------------------------------.

No bend, no arc, no messing with the trueness of an arrow straight! walk stride.

Never.

Ever.

I warm up my naturally shorter-strided, not super-deep, kinda tense, overthinking TWH with some shoulder in, some haunches in...at a MEDIUM WALK. Occasionally we flat walk and do some of it. We leg yield at a flat walk, too- which encourages him to stretch through the ribs and articulate those hind legs independent of the same-side forelegs. Why do I care about that? Because he's step pacey by nature and by doing this consistently, he has IMPROVED his flat walk and his running walk. A lot. I've owned this horse for 6 years. His gaits now are better than they have ever been. You can think I'm wrong headed/ill advised/full of **** all day long. It really won't matter, since the proof is in the horse.



"If the theory says one way, and your horse reacts another way, the theory is wrong and your horse is right. Perhaps, on second thought, you will find that the theory was somewhat right, but needed to be interpreted -adapted- to your horse."

Hurley, I have no idea when or where i peed in your Cheerios, but I meant nothing but fun in my post. (LOTS OF SMILES INSERTED HERE)

[rmh_rider]

I do dressage with my RM. HOWEVER, it must all be in a 4 beat gait. Also I have no desire to canter her, and won't teach her. She can turn on a dime, has turbo boosters like no other. Also she has the longest skid marks of any horse I have had. Holy horse wings! It has to do with her conformation, low hocks, nice croup set. She can really use her hind end well. I have made a point with her to not just do a straight line like many gaited. I wanted her really light on the aids, and she is. She has alot of forward, and can have her spicy moments under saddle.

I have watched Katarine's dressage video's. Really nice.

These are fun horses to ride. I am enjoying not trotting down the trails for endurance any more.

Some friends of mine are doing speed rackers. OMG, and yes, they are in gait. Love to watch them go. But, I do not want to do that with my gaited horse.

I have no desire to go fast, or be competitive again in the ring. Been there done that, my body can't handle it any more.

Gaited is fun. But apparently not for all. Fine by me.

[SwampYankee]

This is exactly what USDF said when they declined to enter the world of "Gaited Dressage."

"Dressage" as a destination is, for me, an ultimate exercise in boredom. But "dressage" as a method of making my horse better is an Excellent Idea. It was also considered an excellent idea in the 18th Century. I have no desire to master the fine points of the works of long dead, European, white guys. I can get what I need from the texts from Ft. Riley or from reading the likes of Henry or d'Endrody*, as supplemented by the practical experiences of application. If others choose a different road, then God Bless 'Em.

In horses breeding counts. There's a reason the high levels of competition Dressage are dominated by warmbloods and you'll narry see an Iberian horse. There's a reason that barrel racing is dominated by QHs. Ditto for cow work. And Cowboy Mounted Shooting. There's a reason TBs dominate in flat racing. This does not mean that other breeds can't participate to some extent in these disciplines, but the rules are such that a specialty horse will whip the non-specialty horse across the board. While this truth is a bit less so in an event judged by a stop watch or yardstick it's absolutely true in the "judged" activities where a human applies a written standard to an equine performance and applies a grade base upon "how well" they conform to that standard.

Good horsemanship is good horsemanship. It is not dependent upon the shape of a saddle or the way of going of the horse.

Good horsemanship also means the rider is smart enough to choose a horse appropriate to the task at hand.

G.

*Note that these references in fact contain a large amount of the work of Baucher and others. But this earlier work is not pursued for its own sake but rather as a way to get someplace else. The work of Baucher is less a destination than a road. A French general observed that he wanted a war horse that would move forward, not go capriolling about the battlefield on three legs.

So very true. And for me, "dressage," specifically that of the French masters, is a means to an end, nothing more. That "end" being a horse I can take anywhere and ask to do damn near anything, alone or in company. Dressage competition is a whole other enchilada, and one I would never entertain with my gaited horse or any other at this point. The exercise of attempting to force a horse to become a piece of precision machinery ceased to interest me long ago. Regrettably, the same thing has happened to the hunters.

[hurleycane]

So very true. And for me, "dressage," specifically that of the French masters, is a means to an end, nothing more. That "end" being a horse I can take anywhere and ask to do damn near anything, alone or in company. Dressage competition is a whole other enchilada, and one I would never entertain with my gaited horse or any other at this point. The exercise of attempting to force a horse to become a piece of precision machinery ceased to interest me long ago. Regrettably, the same thing has happened to the hunters.

I LOVE this post!!!

Specially the highlighted part.

This interest in "French" and discussions of balance and timing is just a better ride/rider effort. Not so much a ribbon in a ring.

And Katarine - the quote you bolded was not intended as a comment at you. The bolded quote below is Racinet's concluding thoughts and the end of the book Swamp recommended in her French thread.

"If the theory says one way, and your horse reacts another way, the theory is wrong and your horse is right. Perhaps, on second thought, you will find that the theory was somewhat right, but needed to be interpreted -adapted- to your horse."

What caught my ear in Swamp's post was something Racinet suggests which is arching the back (tips the pelvis forward) & if the legs are open this pelvic position can induce the horse to collect. But on my horse, if I arch my back and tip the pelvis forward he will ventro flex away from the pressure. So the first part of the above Racinet quote applies. Then again it might just be in my case that I also bring a thigh pressure which causes him to drop his back down. And this would cause the second part of Racinet's quote to apply.

SO from reading Swamp's description of her ride - it prompted me to comment and bring my Racinet readings into the discussion. And maybe some good milk for the Cherios.

[katarine]

I did not take it as a comment at me, not at all. It illustrates my point as it did yours. No worries. I was not addressing you at all when I quoted it again. Please accept my apologies for being unclear in who I was addressing by posting it again. I was not addressing you. Regarding that quote- you didn't cross my mind.

Anyone who says basic dressage schooling, meaning walking in shoulder fore, shoulder in, and haunches in, is unnatural or bad or wrong for TWHs (Bluey and Guilerme- not you, I'm not addressing you) is just plain old wrong. A medium walk is a medium walk, regardless of what the horse's paper's say. A canter is a canter- work it, make it stronger and better. Hell, missing out on dressage type work in a medium walk, slow flat walk, and canter just b/c the paperwork - their 'theory'...says Thou Shall Not Teach this Horse Lateral Flexibility- well, that's a pity. And my horse is PROOF that it is good for them.

I was addressing their ignorance. I was not addressing you other than to say, I don't know when I offended you. Moving on...


It's great that you are enjoying the French Thread. I rode with Ray Hunt back in 2000, when he was still around and doing 4 days clinics for 400 bucks. While he didn't speak French- the theories are all about the same. Reward the slightest try. Ride a plan. Feel. True horsemanship through feel was his book with Leslie Diamond? Desmond? Might be one you'd enjoy.

[hurleycane]

I did not take it as a comment at me, not at all. It illustrates my point as it did yours. No worries. I was not addressing you at all when I quoted it again. Please accept my apologies for being unclear in who I was addressing by posting it again. I was not addressing you. Regarding that quote- you didn't cross my mind.

Anyone who says basic dressage schooling, meaning walking in shoulder fore, shoulder in, and haunches in, is unnatural or bad or wrong for TWHs (Bluey and Guilerme- not you, I'm not addressing you) is just plain old wrong. A medium walk is a medium walk, regardless of what the horse's paper's say. A canter is a canter- work it, make it stronger and better. Hell, missing out on dressage type work in a medium walk, slow flat walk, and canter just b/c the paperwork - their 'theory'...says Thou Shall Not Teach this Horse Lateral Flexibility- well, that's a pity. And my horse is PROOF that it is good for them.

I was addressing their ignorance. I was not addressing you other than to say, I don't know when I offended you. Moving on...

"Boo" ?

And I agree it is silly that folks think French school is only for warm bloods. It is for all horses and riders. No dues need be paid to learn and move on.

I totally agree.

And though I did not cross your mind, somehow you addressed me and connected me to beakfast. LOL.

[hurleycane]

Leslie co authored with Bill Dorrence. She also rode with Ray - whom she says was merciless with her.

[katarine]

"Boo" ?

And I agree it is silly that folks think French school is only for warm bloods. It is for all horses and riders. No dues need be paid to learn and move on.

I totally agree.

And though I did not cross your mind, somehow you addressed me and connected me to beakfast. LOL.

NOTE TO HURLEY
TOPIC: POST #41

From the beginning of post# 41 allllll the way to the bolded quote I repeated ....
..I was addressing Bluey and G.

I borrowed your quote b/c it fit my purposes.

THEN...I remembered you sounded cross with me. Then...I addressed you by name. My comment to you had NOTHING to do with the rest of that post. NOTHING.

That should clear it up. One would think.

[hurleycane]

Katarine - Oh, I am sure everyone understands you now - Southern or not.

[Guilherme]

NOTE TO HURLEY
TOPIC: POST #41

From the beginning of post# 41 allllll the way to the bolded quote I repeated ....
..I was addressing Bluey and G.

I borrowed your quote b/c it fit my purposes.

THEN...I remembered you sounded cross with me. Then...I addressed you by name. My comment to you had NOTHING to do with the rest of that post. NOTHING.

That should clear it up. One would think.

Have I committed some "sins," here, or demonstrated "ignorance?" If so, how? Post no. 41 is incomprehensible as some sort of a demonstration of what I believe or don't believe.

If I've misinterpreted your comments I apologize. If I've not then "ante up" and explain yourself clearly and consistently.

G.

[katarine]

Bluey: While very interesting to get gaited horses to ride like non-gaited horses are expected to perform, well, they just are gaited, that's the way they are and why make their world more difficult asking them to do what they are not really made for? …

While the standards of dressage training can be applied to all horses to improve their way of going, to perform, unless we change the basic standards of what dressage expects in movement, a gaited horse just won't measure up to those while gaiting, other than in gaited specific competition, or will they?


Bluey- define measuring up. My horse and I have earned more High Point ribbons at dressage schooling shows than I can remember - this weekend earning a 65 and some change at First One. My gaited horse's medium and free walks are better than lots of trotting horses. So is his canter. It just is. If that means we measure up, great. If the answer is 'well those are just schooling shows'- well, I don't think his ability to eat lollypops off the stick without batting an eye would do much by way of answering your concern.

The NWHA tests ask for a flat walk instead of a trot.
Where a trot is lengthened, they ask for a running walk.
Medium walk=medium walk
Canter=canter.

So, since the rest of dressage is about movements, YES, the core principles can apply across all horses. Even those that 'just are gaited'. Is my horse, or any TWH, somehow disabled from performing a leg yield in a medium walk? Or a modest flat walk? If so, you'll have to explain that and the biomechanics of why working at a medium walk, modest flat walk, and a canter in low level dressage maneuvers is bad. It's not like his legs grow out of his forehead. He's just a horse. And again, the only time the extension into running walk is asked for is on a straight line. Frankly, we don't ask trotting horses to extend on a 10m circle either, while we're talking about it.

My educated response, given that of the three of us, I'm the only one who has actually done this thing one apparently should not do because it is too hard or would be bad horsemanship to do:

Guys:

No TWH is encouraged with 'gaited dressage' to perform a running walk on a 10m circle.
Or a 15.
Or a 20.

So no one does it. No test asks for it. The tests that DO ask for a running walk only ask for it on a long diagonal.

You know, a straight line. ----------------------------------.

No bend, no arc, no messing with the trueness of an arrow straight--------> walk stride.

Never.

Ever.

I warm up my naturally shorter-strided, not super-deep, kinda tense, overthinking TWH with some shoulder in, some haunches in...at a MEDIUM WALK. Occasionally we flat walk and do some of the above, too...(HORRORS) which encourages him to stretch through the ribs and articulate those hind legs independent of the same-side forelegs. Why do I care about that? Because he's step pacey by nature and by doing this consistently, he has IMPROVED his flat walk and his running walk. A lot. I've owned this horse for 6 years. His gaits now are better than they have ever been. You can think I'm wrong headed/ill advised/full of **** all day long. It really won't matter, since the proof is in the horse.


-------

Over and over, G, you have told this board that this sort of work (dressage with a big or little D) cannot be done or should not be done. You've never said exactly why. Now you are suggesting:

Guillerme: Good horsemanship is good horsemanship. It is not dependent upon the shape of a saddle or the way of going of the horse.

Good horsemanship also means the rider is smart enough to choose a horse appropriate to the task at hand.

G, I have done the work, I have seen the physical improvements, as well as the mental improvements, in my horse. I refuse to accept your blanket "Just Say No". I think it is rooted in well intended/good hearted ignorance of what we actually ask these horses to do. You don't know any better. If you do, well, ante up and tell me exactly how which movements at which gaits are detrimental to the gaited horse. And how.

I know how it helps. You're going to have to define how it hurts.

[katarine]

Leslie co authored with Bill Dorrence. She also rode with Ray - whom she says was merciless with her.

It's Dorrance if anyone's looking for the book. Thank you for the correction, I knew better and forgot.

http://www.billdorrance.com/

[SmartAlex]

Guys:

No TWH is encouraged with 'gaited dressage' to perform a running walk on a 10m circle.
Or a 15.
Or a 20.

So no one does it. No test asks for it. The tests that DO ask for a running walk only ask for it on a long diagonal.

You know, a straight line. ----------------------------------.

No bend, no arc, no messing with the trueness of an arrow straight--------> walk stride.

Never.

Ever.

That being said, I was once at a horse show and watched a trainer schooling a young five gaited horse at the slow gait in one of the most lovely, relaxed symetrical serpentines I've ever seen. Seeing as how at the time I had a raucous gaited horse I was having trouble staying with on a straight line I was flat out amazed. It was impressive.

[Guilherme]

Over and over, G, you have told this board that this sort of work (dressage with a big or little D) cannot be done or should not be done. You've never said exactly why. Now you are suggesting:

Guillerme: Good horsemanship is good horsemanship. It is not dependent upon the shape of a saddle or the way of going of the horse.

Good horsemanship also means the rider is smart enough to choose a horse appropriate to the task at hand.

G, I have done the work, I have seen the physical improvements, as well as the mental improvements, in my horse. I refuse to accept your blanket "Just Say No". I think it is rooted in well intended/good hearted ignorance of what we actually ask these horses to do. You don't know any better. If you do, well, ante up and tell me exactly how which movements at which gaits are detrimental to the gaited horse. And how.

I know how it helps. You're going to have to define how it hurts.

In fact I have VERY specifically said why Dressage is not a gaited horse discipline. Why? Because Dressage requires a horse to trot. USDF says so; FEI says so; I don't know of any Dressage organization that says otherwise. If I'm in error then please correct me. If not then quit calling me "ignorant" because I've spent time reading the rules of these organizations!!!!!

And I've said, ad nauseum, that dressage can be a Very Good Idea for gaited horses. I've cited documentation for this as early 1745. Again, if I'm wrong I'll accept correction. If not, then back off on the "ignorance" comments.

While we're at it, why can't your horse do a 20 meter circle? Why must a running walk always be done in an "arrow straight line?" When we had Walkers we did lots of 20m circles. And at 15m and 10m. In gait. Without overstressing the horse or in any way adversely affecting the gait. Why the dreadful fear of this sort of movement???

To summarize, once again, Dressage is a formal discipline with formal rules that requires a horse to trot. With dressage you have a set of formalized instructions that are designed to teach certain movements. There IS overlap; but they are two different things.

Know it; believe it; live it!!!!!

G.

[Bluey]

Define dressage.
Dressage as a discipline has very clear rules, three pure gaits one important, basic one.

By definition, gaited horses have more and/or less gaits than the three gaits defined as basic to dressage and some of that different "gaitness" at times is antagonistic to three pure gaits, as required for dressage.

Dressage as a training scale to get your horse to be more or do xyz also depends on three gaits, that the training works to get and keep as pure as possible.

BUT, as Guilherme stated, parts of dressage training can and are applicable and applied to gaited horses just fine, but not the part that requires three very specific gaits as per the rules.

Now, gaited dressage, western dressage, that is changing the definitions to incorporate other than what is basic to dressage and that is fine also.

[katarine]

In fact I have VERY specifically said why Dressage is not a gaited horse discipline. Why? Because Dressage requires a horse to trot. USDF says so; FEI says so; I don't know of any Dressage organization that says otherwise. If I'm in error then please correct me. If not then quit calling me "ignorant" because I've spent time reading the rules of these organizations!!!!!

For the purposes of this discussion we're talking about dressage. The above is obvious.

And I've said, ad nauseum, that dressage can be a Very Good Idea for gaited horses. I've cited documentation for this as early 1745. Again, if I'm wrong I'll accept correction. If not, then back off on the "ignorance" comments.

While we're at it, why can't your horse do a 20 meter circle? Why must a running walk always be done in an "arrow straight line?"
Simple-they need more neutrality in their back to gait bigger than a flat walk. To accurately ride a proper and balanced 15 or 10m circle- they need to slow down and round up, in varying degrees. You do realize the Dressage test don't ask trotting horses to perform an extended trot on a 10m circle, right? Ever wonder why? That's why.

When we had Walkers we did lots of 20m circles. And at 15m and 10m. In gait. Without overstressing the horse or in any way adversely affecting the gait. Why the dreadful fear of this sort of movement???

I'm not afraid of it, don't put words in my mouth. I don't believe for one minute that a horse this 'big moving' can navigate a 10m circle at a running walk- he'd get tangled up in his own feet if he attempted to round up AND stay big and deep. You'll have to show me evidence to the contrary because I don't believe it can be done. Or should be asked for- it's going to upset the horse's balance. http://youtu.be/iiPJLulpgMA


G.

We agree on what big D is. We agree on the little d. We always have. Next. if somewhere in this mess I used D where it should be d, by all means, I was wrong.
Ok I looked- no one said gaited horses do Dressage. I and others said dressage. Even Bluey didn't type D, she typed d....so you're educating people who don't need it. D=Trot d=gait. We get it and we got it.

But then why in the world did you bother to say this?

Good horsemanship also means the rider is smart enough to choose a horse appropriate to the task at hand.

I cannot find any way to read that, in the context of this discussion, that is positive in its connotations.

[katarine]

NWHA defined gaited dressage, Bluey. Turn to page 15.

[Guilherme]

The 20m circle is one of the most useful training maneuvers you can use with a horse. A correctly moving Walker can running walk and flat walk at 20m without loosing form.

I agree that you can't "go big" on a small circle. But I must then ask, "so what?" If you have to flat walk to go to 10m then flat walk. Unless you're in a TWH-industry show ring and being judged on front end action, why is that a problem?

The benefit from this, including to a Walker doing a proper running walk, is a more supple and flexible and "looser" horse. This will improve both comfort to the rider and ease stress on the horse. Why would this be a Bad Thing?

If you "round out" any horse you pull the gait from the lateral to the diagonal. Given that most Walkers pace like camels (due to the breeding practices that supply the WHTA with candidates for the Big Lick) then circles are a very fine way to help the horse move its gait to the center. If you're already at the center you're still OK as long as you don't get too enthusiastic with your leg and hand.

I presume the discussion on the subjects of Dressage and dressage are now closed.

G.

[katarine]

I don't really know why the discussion was broached. No one said gaited horses do Dressage.

That horse I linked to above is an own son of Main Power. All of those videos of horses are modern bred TWHs, none pace like camels, that's a rather broad brush statement. He walks a hole in the ground. And I don't believe any horse that well gaited who is performing a running walk can pull of a 10m circle in a running walk.You will have to prove me wrong with evidence.

[Guilherme]

I don't really know why the discussion was broached. No one said gaited horses do Dressage.

That horse I linked to above is an own son of Main Power. All of those videos of horses are modern bred TWHs, none pace like camels, that's a rather broad brush statement. He walks a hole in the ground. And I don't believe any horse that well gaited who is performing a running walk can pull of a 10m circle in a running walk.You will have to prove me wrong with evidence.

Well, people write Gaited Dressage (that's the noun "Dressage" modified by the adjective "Gaited" all capitalized; the meaning is pretty clear to me ).

My broad brush statement is painfully accurate.

Read what I wrote: if you go on a smaller circle you might have to slow down. I've said that at least twice, now. Please read it. But that's OK. The horse still gets a benefit even if you have to slow down. That's the beauty of work on circles. Do it right and you can get a Walker to do a credible imitation of a QH spin. Or maybe just a very nice turn on the haunches.

G.