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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by why not View Post
    The filly worked out very wel and got fohlenpraemie.

    Good ..... I'm happy for you Harrie.

    Are you coming to Nuemunster ?



  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bayhawk View Post
    "Holsteiners need new blood" ? "The breeding direction will go backwards" ?

    Holsteiner is the #1 ranked studbook in the world. They have the #1 female family in the world and at last check had the top 2 ranked horses in the world.

    They are hardly breeding backwards. Whomever is feeding you this information is obviously not from Holstein.

    "Breeders in Germany will tell you" ? You might want to develop some friendships with the breeders in Holstein and you may learn a little more.
    I do visit breeders in the Holstein area. And Harm Thormahlen was the one who told me this 20 years ago--and it has been repeated since.

    I "get" all the sales pitch from the Holsteiner legion in this thread. But I am a jumping horse breeder, not a brand breeder. The world is not flat and you won't fall off if you leave Holstein. You will be o.k.



  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bayhawk View Post
    "Holsteiners need new blood" ? "The breeding direction will go backwards" ?

    Holsteiner is the #1 ranked studbook in the world. They have the #1 female family in the world and at last check had the top 2 ranked horses in the world.

    They are hardly breeding backwards. Whomever is feeding you this information is obviously not from Holstein.

    "Breeders in Germany will tell you" ? You might want to develop some friendships with the breeders in Holstein and you may learn a little more.
    btw, a SF horse, NINO DES BUISSONNETS, is ranked at #1. The Holsteiners you are probably thinking of stand at #2 and #3. Not to take away from the quality of the Holsteiner, I am just trying to defend my original post concerning my view of the lack of anything but C blood in the current crop that have been selected for the coming keuring. Don't assume someone who has an opinion not in accordance with your beliefs is uninformed, misinformed or ignorant of the Holsteiner breed. Further do not assume that if I have a breeding opinion different from yours and a couple others on this Holsteiner thread that I might need to develop friendships with the breeders in Holstein--as if I do not know what I am talking about--I doubt you speak for all of them.



  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by feather river View Post
    I do visit breeders in the Holstein area. And Harm Thormahlen was the one who told me this 20 years ago--and it has been repeated since.

    I "get" all the sales pitch from the Holsteiner legion in this thread. But I am a jumping horse breeder, not a brand breeder. The world is not flat and you won't fall off if you leave Holstein. You will be o.k.
    Harm Thormalen told you this 20 years ago ? Funny the Holstein studbook is ranked #1 20 years later with a majority of C line horses making up this # 1 spot.

    Funny it hasn't changed in 20 years and what's even more funny is that the most recent approved stallion Harm Thormalen bred is Cero by Calido / Come On / Calando I / Capitano.......FOUR generations in a row of C ........ouch ! I think my friend Harm was maybe trying to divert you away so he could breed with all the C !

    I personally don't think you know as much as you would like us to think you do , and if you think someone is "sales pitching" , you are sadly mistaken. It is what it is.



  5. #65
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    To my eye, the filly is intensely inbred with the Corrado brothers as grandparent and great grandparent. And there are more duplicates in some of the other Holstein lines in the KWPN horses. Valine is Cottage Son and Raimond is Ramzes. There is more Ladykiller in the back and also more Farn. The only doubles, though, come through males. I find that interesting.
    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
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  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bayhawk View Post
    Harm Thormalen told you this 20 years ago ? Funny the Holstein studbook is ranked #1 20 years later with a majority of C line horses making up this # 1 spot.

    Funny it hasn't changed in 20 years and what's even more funny is that the most recent approved stallion Harm Thormalen bred is Cero by Calido / Come On / Calando I / Capitano.......FOUR generations in a row of C ........ouch ! I think my friend Harm was maybe trying to divert you away so he could breed with all the C !

    I personally don't think you know as much as you would like us to think you do , and if you think someone is "sales pitching" , you are sadly mistaken. It is what it is.
    BIG OUCH--I've been snake bit by a Holstein breeder
    Hard to make comments on this thread when some are closed minded and not open to opinions/thoughts of others. Difficult to have a discussion with different points of view when some have only their own vision that is tolerated.
    Cero is a very nice horse, btw, and its pedigree is an outstanding one. My initial point still stands however. The breed is on its way to being a two legged stool--the two legs being the two C lines. Anyone who understands genetics will understand that the other lines are dropping out each successive generation of breeding if the mares don't have diversity in them. You cannot drive or breed by looking solely in the rear view mirror. Breeding is a journey with a point that you came from to a point that you are going to. Would be helpful if you understood this. Then "maybe" we could have a good discussion of the breed's lines and how they have changed over the past couple of decades. But looks like that is not going to happen on this thread.



  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by vineyridge View Post
    To my eye, the filly is intensely inbred with the Corrado brothers as grandparent and great grandparent. And there are more duplicates in some of the other Holstein lines in the KWPN horses. Valine is Cottage Son and Raimond is Ramzes. There is more Ladykiller in the back and also more Farn. The only doubles, though, come through males. I find that interesting.
    Thanks. Although a bit further away I duplicated Dorette also.

    Reece: will not be in NMS this year. Keep an eye open for the Quintero from the same mareline as the mentioned filly.



  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by feather river View Post
    BIG OUCH--I've been snake bit by a Holstein breeder
    Hard to make comments on this thread when some are closed minded and not open to opinions/thoughts of others. Difficult to have a discussion with different points of view when some have only their own vision that is tolerated.
    Cero is a very nice horse, btw, and its pedigree is an outstanding one. My initial point still stands however. The breed is on its way to being a two legged stool--the two legs being the two C lines. Anyone who understands genetics will understand that the other lines are dropping out each successive generation of breeding if the mares don't have diversity in them. You cannot drive or breed by looking solely in the rear view mirror. Breeding is a journey with a point that you came from to a point that you are going to. Would be helpful if you understood this. Then "maybe" we could have a good discussion of the breed's lines and how they have changed over the past couple of decades. But looks like that is not going to happen on this thread.
    Feather River,

    You made it difficult to have a discussion about genetics, when you essentially wrote off the the #1 studbook in the world. Bayhawk and I gave you numerous examples of stallions, and horses that are far from overly concentrated in C and C and you chose to only defend you comment. The EVIDENCE has been provided to you that shows that the old guard, and many new stallions are in fact not heavily concentrated with C & C. It has been the proper use of these lines that has elevated them to the top. Your statements are in direct contradiction to the facts.

    So it is difficult to have a meaningful conversation with you regarding genetics when you continue to disregard the facts. I have a degree in Biochemistry and Microbiology and Molecular Genetics. I can assure you that I understand these basic points in regards to diversity.

    We would all enjoy a nice conversation about the Sire lines, as it would be appropriate for this thread. However, having that discussion with complete disregard for the mares and their own diversity is foolish. I provided an example with one of my mares. My mare has no Capitol, and 3 gens of half bred stallions then a TB stallion. I can breed her to almost any Holsteiner stallion alive(based on paper of course). One of my other mares is C,L,A,S,F . Again, no problems here. The mares we are using today, are a result breeding choices from awhile ago. The problem is more one of a misunderstanding, then factual. I have many more examples, and suggest a step back will reveal the forest.


    Tim
    Sparling Rock Holsteiners
    www.sparlingrock.com



  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by feather river View Post
    BIG OUCH--I've been snake bit by a Holstein breeder
    Hard to make comments on this thread when some are closed minded and not open to opinions/thoughts of others. Difficult to have a discussion with different points of view when some have only their own vision that is tolerated.
    Cero is a very nice horse, btw, and its pedigree is an outstanding one. My initial point still stands however. The breed is on its way to being a two legged stool--the two legs being the two C lines. Anyone who understands genetics will understand that the other lines are dropping out each successive generation of breeding if the mares don't have diversity in them. You cannot drive or breed by looking solely in the rear view mirror. Breeding is a journey with a point that you came from to a point that you are going to. Would be helpful if you understood this. Then "maybe" we could have a good discussion of the breed's lines and how they have changed over the past couple of decades. But looks like that is not going to happen on this thread.
    we COULD have a nice conversation here if you were more versed in the reality. You are certainly titled to an opinion but the stats weigh heavily against your opinion.

    you make comments like "two legged stool" that are totally false.

    If you would have stopped making these errant statements you may have learned about my mares and their underwhelming amount of C blood. You may now understand why offense is taken with your comments. Diverse group of mares below.

    Canturo / Lord / Masetto / Ramiro / Colonel
    Singulord Joter / Acorado / Ramiro / Landgraf
    Corrado I / Quidam de revel / Contender / Landgraf
    Calido / Acorado / Landgraf / Lord / Ramiro
    Singulord Joter / Acord II / Corrado I / Ramiro
    Lavaletto / Acord II / Sable Skinflint xx
    Classe / Acorado / Ramiro / Landgraf
    Mezcalero / Lavaletto / Acord II / Sable skinflint xx
    Campesino / Lavaletto / Acord II /Sable Skinflint xx
    Canturo / Acorado / Ramiro / Landgraf

    I've bred some of these and bought some of these. These are anything but "two legged stools" and will never be two legged stools.

    you don't seem to understand that we don't want to get away from C. It is known as the best jumping blood in the world. The C from cottage son xx and the C from Corde la bryere are magical together. They just need something stuck in between every 3rd or 4th generation.

    People have been saying what you have been saying for the last 30 years. It hasn't happened then and it won't happen now.



  10. #70
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    If 80 percent of the stallions are C lines dont the mare sire line eventually also become C?
    Conversely if a percentage of mares need a no c line sire but only have 20 percent of the stallion book to pick from does that also raise its own concerns on limited genetic pool?


    How would one know if you have too much C line (or frankly any one line) in a program?--how would it be manifested?
    TIA



  11. #71
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    Bayhawk has been talking for years, IIRC, about the outcross blood coming in through F1 mares. If you have a mare who is 50% outcross with few or no duplicates to existing lines, the available sire pool would be far more than 20%, wouldn't it?
    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
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  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by omare View Post
    If 80 percent of the stallions are C lines dont the mare sire line eventually also become C?
    Conversely if a percentage of mares need a no c line sire but only have 20 percent of the stallion book to pick from does that also raise its own concerns on limited genetic pool?


    How would one know if you have too much C line (or frankly any one line) in a program?--how would it be manifested?
    TIA
    Here is where the knowledge (or lack there of) comes in Omare. These folks hear bits and pieces of conversations and don't fully understand the meaning.

    The breeders of Holstein have gotten rich and famous with c&c. It becomes a problem when you have too much Cassini / Contender for example. While this can be a very good sporthorse that is worth a fortune......it can also become a little boxy and heavy.

    The approach for the future needs to be Cassini / Laval / Contender or Cassini / Heraldik xx / Contender etc. You never need to worry about having too much C......only the Verband needs to worry about this moving forward. Like Harrie non chalantly said......they will open up ever so often when they feel the need.

    They have the most condensed jumping gene in the world in their mare herd. They will be super careful not to let it escape.



  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by vineyridge View Post
    Bayhawk has been talking for years, IIRC, about the outcross blood coming in through F1 mares. If you have a mare who is 50% outcross with few or no duplicates to existing lines, the available sire pool would be far more than 20%, wouldn't it?
    BINGO !



  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by why not View Post
    Thanks. Although a bit further away I duplicated Dorette also.

    Reece: will not be in NMS this year. Keep an eye open for the Quintero from the same mareline as the mentioned filly.
    Quintero / Cassini II / Fasolt / Lagos stamm 730b. I like the perfect sex balanced line breeding to Caletto II thru his son Chamonix and his daughter Wisma. Beautiful breeding ! I will keep an eye for him.



  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bayhawk View Post
    we COULD have a nice conversation here if you were more versed in the reality. You are certainly titled to an opinion but the stats weigh heavily against your opinion.

    you make comments like "two legged stool" that are totally false.

    you don't seem to understand that we don't want to get away from C. It is known as the best jumping blood in the world. The C from cottage son xx and the C from Corde la bryere are magical together. They just need something stuck in between every 3rd or 4th generation.

    People have been saying what you have been saying for the last 30 years. It hasn't happened then and it won't happen now.
    Exactly what I have been saying. The 2 C's are great together--they just need something stuck in between.

    I love C blood. no one is saying that you and other Holsteiner breeders need to get away from the 2 C lines. I know Holsteiners are an excellent jumper genetics breed and genetics pool. I have never indicated otherwise in this thread or any others.

    but if the breed looses those M's, L's, R's, A's etc. that are stuck in between (I am assuming you understand genetic generational loss), it will only further concentrate the genetic pool of the 2 C's--further line breed it. It stands to loose the benefits of the genetics behind Marlon, Ladykiller, Ramzes, Alme', etc.

    Diarado will hopefully become a great future sire for the breed. The combination of new SF blood on Corrado might just infuse new vigor into the population. But whether the breeders use him, and whether he can make strong sons or maybe becomes a sire who makes a line of jumper dams will not be known for at least 10 years.

    See we do agree--
    Last edited by feather river; Oct. 9, 2012 at 02:07 PM.



  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by feather river View Post
    Exactly what I have been saying. The 2 C's are great together--they just need something stuck in between.

    I love C blood. no one is saying that you and other Holsteiner breeders need to get away from the 2 C lines. I know Holsteiners are an excellent jumper genetics breed and genetics pool. I have never indicated otherwise in this thread or any others.

    but if the breed looses those M's, L's, R's, A's etc. that are stuck in between (I am assuming you understand genetic generational loss), it will only further concentrate the genetic pool of the 2 C's--further line breed it. It stands to loose the benefits of the genetics behind Marlon, Ladykiller, Ramzes, Alme', etc.

    Diarado will hopefully become a great future sire for the breed. The combination of new SF blood on Corrado might just infuse new vigor into the population. But whether the breeders use him, and whether he can make strong sons or maybe becomes a sire who makes a line of jumper dams will not be known for at least 10 years.

    See we do agree--

    This is sad when Wendy's post celebrating a great breeding success, spirals into a banter from the unknowledgeable Holsteiner nay sayers.

    Wendy accomplished this very great thing with Bayhawks inputs, he gave her the advice that if you would only listen to, maybe you could learn from.

    The Holstein breeders have a recipe for breeding, that has taken, how long, to develop, it works.

    Why continue to argue the point. I was going to respond to your original post but ,poof you edited before I got a chance to quote.



  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noms View Post
    This is sad when Wendy's post celebrating a great breeding success, spirals into a banter from the unknowledgeable Holsteiner nay sayers.

    Wendy accomplished this very great thing with Bayhawks inputs, he gave her the advice that if you would only listen to, maybe you could learn from.

    The Holstein breeders have a recipe for breeding, that has taken, how long, to develop, it works.

    Why continue to argue the point. I was going to respond to your original post but ,poof you edited before I got a chance to quote.
    but the thread says Holsteiner Verband Korung Stallions. I didn't know if was a private party.

    and you don't know me--so don't refer to me as a unknowledgable Holsteiner nay sayer.
    those kinds of remarks are petty and not conducive to discussions.
    and Bayhawk and I tend to be in agreement.
    I can always learn from another breeder--and maybe some could learn from me as well.
    you need to be as open to other's views as you expect others to be open to your views.



  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by feather river View Post
    but the thread says Holsteiner Verband Korung Stallions. I didn't know if was a private party.

    and you don't know me--so don't refer to me as a unknowledgable Holsteiner nay sayer.
    those kinds of remarks are petty and not conducive to discussions.
    and Bayhawk and I tend to be in agreement.
    I can always learn from another breeder--and maybe some could learn from me as well.
    you need to be as open to other's views as you expect others to be open to your views.
    I read your original post, was responding to it.



  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by feather river View Post
    Exactly what I have been saying. The 2 C's are great together--they just need something stuck in between.

    I love C blood. no one is saying that you and other Holsteiner breeders need to get away from the 2 C lines. I know Holsteiners are an excellent jumper genetics breed and genetics pool. I have never indicated otherwise in this thread or any others.

    but if the breed looses those M's, L's, R's, A's etc. that are stuck in between (I am assuming you understand genetic generational loss), it will only further concentrate the genetic pool of the 2 C's--further line breed it. It stands to loose the benefits of the genetics behind Marlon, Ladykiller, Ramzes, Alme', etc.

    Diarado will hopefully become a great future sire for the breed. The combination of new SF blood on Corrado might just infuse new vigor into the population. But whether the breeders use him, and whether he can make strong sons or maybe becomes a sire who makes a line of jumper dams will not be known for at least 10 years.

    See we do agree--
    Yes we do agree then. I understood you were saying there was too much C blood ? There is no such thing in my opinion.

    yes ,they must gap it with A , R , L etc. and then they can go right back to it.

    Diarado is showing up in his daughters. I think he had more on the elite mare show than any other sire. They had top rideability. I haven't been impressed with the sons anywhere in Europe thus far.
    Last edited by Bayhawk; Oct. 9, 2012 at 04:06 PM.



  20. #80
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    "If you have a mare who is 50% outcross with few or no duplicates to existing lines, the available sire pool would be far more than 20%, wouldn't it?"

    I guess my awkward point was that outcrossed mare will be presented to a C line stalllion and have a F1 with a C sire line.

    But it seems it is known how to mix and match the c lines.

    it certainly points out why one must think generationally in order (among other things) not to paint oneself into a genetic corner with your mare line.



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