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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by ponygirl View Post
    I saw that as well but there is a big difference between doing 1 class at 1.45 and being an International GP jumper as we all know. I wish them success!
    I agree, and was happy to be corrected and correct the facts. However, I am confident that we won't be saying the same thing about them in the years to come. With the time off to have a foal, and then having her primary rider be in an accident. Her training has not offered her the opportunity to show her stuff. With her new riders and dedication to competing her, I think we will see a lot more of her. I am also excited to see her daughter competing as well, I believe with Wendy Peralta.

    How is the Cardento from my mare doing? Did she have a foal for you this year? I would be interested in hearing how she is producing.

    Tim
    Sparling Rock Holsteiners
    www.sparlingrock.com



  2. #22
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    "You can not look at our Sport horses to evaluate the herd in this manner."

    I think if you look at the lisitng for the verband stallions--you could also draw that conclusion.

    Why so few A sire lined stallions--(although it seems to make a fine dam sire?)
    Is that by choice or design? Or is that it is just not a "stallion maker" line.
    TIA



  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by RyTimMick View Post
    I will be going again this year.

    Tim
    My mother and I will be tagging along with Karen Reid. I'm very excited to be surrounded by so many Holsteiner breeders far more knowledgeable than myself!



  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by omare View Post
    "You can not look at our Sport horses to evaluate the herd in this manner."

    I think if you look at the lisitng for the verband stallions--you could also draw that conclusion.

    Why so few A sire lined stallions--(although it seems to make a fine dam sire?)
    Is that by choice or design? Or is that it is just not a "stallion maker" line.
    TIA
    Which A line do you refer too, Alme or Anblick XX.

    The breeders of Holstein select the stallions first based on presentation, and then later by production. Alme through Acord II seemed most prolific through Acorado. Acadius I was told was also a good son of Acord II, but was born at the wrong time. Acorado was a breeding fool and breeding while Acadius was around. Acadius was shipped out. We only have a few sons of Acorado, and most notably Acodetto who happens to be a great mare producer.

    Quidam de Revel is essentially an Alme sire line. He does have a few, and we all know about Quinar who was double Alme. We have Quintero, Quidams Acord, Q-Verdi and so forth. We will have to wait and see how they do.

    The take home message is that the Ramiro/Alme cross was best and discovered by Alex Leon at Zangershiede. You might remember Ratina Z. This is how best to look at the Alme's. Classe is a stallion to keep looking at because although he is a son of Chin Chin, he is double Alme as well.


    We also had Alcatraz. He wasn't a sire maker, but had great impact on some mare lines. Very powerful, good jumpers, but sometimes huge and with too much white for many Holsteiner breeders.

    To your point about the Stallion Roster. I can see what you mean, but I am more interested in which stallions are being used, and those which are producing our next generation. That history tells the story.

    Tim
    Sparling Rock Holsteiners
    www.sparlingrock.com



  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by *Tradewind* View Post
    My mother and I will be tagging along with Karen Reid. I'm very excited to be surrounded by so many Holsteiner breeders far more knowledgeable than myself!

    Welcome Tradewind, look forward to seeing you over there.

    Tim
    Sparling Rock Holsteiners
    www.sparlingrock.com



  6. #26
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    "Quidam de Revel is essentially an Alme sire line."

    That is a good point--I had not thought about that--if the french had the same naming convention there would be more stallions under A ! :-)



  7. #27
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    Alme crosses well with far more than just Ramiro. Big Star is Quick Star (Galoubet by Alme) out of Nimmerdor mare and Taloubet Z is Baloubet du Rouet (Galoubet by Alme) out of a Nimmerdor mare. Big Star is Team Gold from London and Taloubet Z is WC Finals winner in 2011 bred by the same breeder in NL.

    Cylana, Reed Kessler's mount, is by Skippy II (Galoubet A by Alme) out of a Darco mare.

    Lots of other examples but this gives the idea.



  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by RyTimMick View Post
    How is the Cardento from my mare doing? Did she have a foal for you this year? I would be interested in hearing how she is producing.

    Tim
    She is in foal to Carracci, a Verband approved Caretino son. Really looking forward to seeing the foal myself. Will let you know when it arrives.
    "Sometimes you just have to shut up and color."



  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by knowthatifly View Post
    Alme crosses well with far more than just Ramiro. Big Star is Quick Star (Galoubet by Alme) out of Nimmerdor mare and Taloubet Z is Baloubet du Rouet (Galoubet by Alme) out of a Nimmerdor mare. Big Star is Team Gold from London and Taloubet Z is WC Finals winner in 2011 bred by the same breeder in NL.

    Cylana, Reed Kessler's mount, is by Skippy II (Galoubet A by Alme) out of a Darco mare.

    Lots of other examples but this gives the idea.
    funny....Big Star is by Quick Star / Nimmerdor / RAMIRO



  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by omare View Post
    "Quidam de Revel is essentially an Alme sire line."

    That is a good point--I had not thought about that--if the french had the same naming convention there would be more stallions under A ! :-)
    Not "essentially".....he IS from Alme. QDR v. Jaliso v. Alme



  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by RyTimMick View Post
    I know many know this already, but there are two seperate C lines in Holstein. The Cottage Son XX line and Cor de la Bryere Line. The Cottage SonXX line is Capitol. We all know that there is a lot of sires with this pedigree, but keep in mind the majority of the great horses keeping Holstein on top are not in bred. Here are some examples:

    Corrado I- Corde/Capital/MaestoseXX/FrivolXX

    Cassini I/II - Capitol/Caletto II/Mahmud/Cobalt (2 half breds)

    Contender - Calypso II/Ramiro/LadykillerXX

    Carthago - Capitol/CalandoI/Mambo/Consul (2 half breds)

    Caretino - Caletto II/Metellus/Aldato (Half bred)

    Casall - Caretino/Lavall/Raimond

    Calido - Cantus/Coriolan/Roman

    Canturo - Cantus/Calando I/Landego

    etc. Yes some have double Corde, but he was an outcross stallion who was by the TB Rantzau XX. Complete outcross blood.

    2 years ago the seigerhengst was by Larimar - Lavall II/Lord/Little Lion XX/GalapeterXX. Lavall II is 3/4 TB and Lord is 1/2. The year before that was Diarado, a Half bred by Diamant De Semilly. Those that are concerned about the Holsteiner horse are just not looking closely enough. We must seperate the sport horses and our breeding stock when evaluating availability of fresh genetics. You can not look at our Sport horses to evaluate the herd in this manner.

    Tim
    Thanks Tim, but note I said C "lines"--that is because there are two of them as you pointed out. And yes, the C lines were once outcrosses, but as they get rebred across each other so often now, they come closer and closer together as the outcrosses are further back in the genetic pool. I believe that my viewpoint was correct, and the genetic pool of the Holsteiner is getting more inbred. It is a generally understood rule in Germany that "the Holsteiner always needs fresh blood" otherwise the genetics moves backwards to the older types as the Ladykiller, Ramzes, Cottage Son, etc. get diluted out. A view expressed by many German breeders I know, and a view I would agree with. Again look at how successful the Holsteiner is when it is put on other breeds with strong XX or AA in their backgrounds.

    Don't misunderstand--I love the Holsteiners for their jump ability and jump genetics. But, you have to be careful as to the mares you use.



  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by omare View Post
    "Quidam de Revel is essentially an Alme sire line."

    That is a good point--I had not thought about that--if the french had the same naming convention there would be more stallions under A ! :-)
    If the French had the same naming conventions as the Germans, the "Alme" sire line wouldn't be "A". It would be "O", since it originated with the TB stallion "Orange Peel".



  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by ponygirl View Post
    She is in foal to Carracci, a Verband approved Caretino son. Really looking forward to seeing the foal myself. Will let you know when it arrives.

    Thanks Jennifer, I look forward to hearing how it turns out.

    Tim
    Sparling Rock Holsteiners
    www.sparlingrock.com



  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by feather river View Post
    Thanks Tim, but note I said C "lines"--that is because there are two of them as you pointed out. And yes, the C lines were once outcrosses, but as they get rebred across each other so often now, they come closer and closer together as the outcrosses are further back in the genetic pool. I believe that my viewpoint was correct, and the genetic pool of the Holsteiner is getting more inbred. It is a generally understood rule in Germany that "the Holsteiner always needs fresh blood" otherwise the genetics moves backwards to the older types as the Ladykiller, Ramzes, Cottage Son, etc. get diluted out. A view expressed by many German breeders I know, and a view I would agree with. Again look at how successful the Holsteiner is when it is put on other breeds with strong XX or AA in their backgrounds.

    Don't misunderstand--I love the Holsteiners for their jump ability and jump genetics. But, you have to be careful as to the mares you use.
    I must be speaking to different Germans, although I will admit they all reside in Holstein. The Holsteiner mares of yesterday needed those refinement sires as they were heavier. The modern sires of today do not have that problem, and are chock full of blood. ALL WB books use Hybrid Vigor to keep their herds relevant. This is not unique to Holstein. This is in fact what makes up the definition of a WB. What confuses many is there are 2 C-Lines so it makes it look more concentrated then it really is. Holstein has done one of the best jobs of weaving in the XX and AA Blood into their herd, and we now line breed to it keep it fresh.

    I just love it when everyone else is concerned with the #1 jumper breed in the world, except Holsteiner Breeders. Look at all other WB books and you will see that their sires list does not have nearly as much XX or AA blood as does Holstein.

    I will agree with you on this, you must be wise when selecting your breeding mares. Good broodmares if they have C and C concentration have it separated by L, A, H, M, F, S and R.

    This is how it is done.

    Tim
    Sparling Rock Holsteiners
    www.sparlingrock.com



  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by DownYonder View Post
    If the French had the same naming conventions as the Germans, the "Alme" sire line wouldn't be "A". It would be "O", since it originated with the TB stallion "Orange Peel".

    This is true for SF, as it would be the new outside blood to their book. However, the second it left France, and was approved for breeding in Holstein it caries the letter of the name of the outside horse to Holstein. That is why QDR is a Q line and not notated an A line. This is even true knowing that QDR's grandsire is the the approved A line sire Alme.

    Tim
    Sparling Rock Holsteiners
    www.sparlingrock.com



  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by RyTimMick View Post
    I must be speaking to different Germans, although I will admit they all reside in Holstein.

    Holstein has done one of the best jobs of weaving in the XX and AA Blood into their herd, and we now line breed to it keep it fresh.

    I will agree with you on this, you must be wise when selecting your breeding mares. Good broodmares if they have C and C concentration have it separated by L, A, H, M, F, S and R.


    Tim
    All good points, Tim. You are certainly helpful in explaining the breed's recent history. My position on the current keuring list however still stands--I hate to see the demise of good older blood, particularly in a breed that is much used by others. Even a stool needs a minimum of 3 legs to continue standing. I think even the German Holstein breeders know this.



  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by feather river View Post
    All good points, Tim. You are certainly helpful in explaining the breed's recent history. My position on the current keuring list however still stands--I hate to see the demise of good older blood, particularly in a breed that is much used by others. Even a stool needs a minimum of 3 legs to continue standing. I think even the German Holstein breeders know this.
    The Holsteiner breeders are currently #1 in the world. The other studbooks currently using their blood with their own hybrid vigor are not outproducing them.

    Holstein always has their eye on the two c lines but they are far from concerned. Look at Casall.....Caretino / Laval I / Raimond / Korenbleem xx. where is the need for concern in this pedigree ?

    Contender.......Calypso II / Ramiro / Ladykiller xx Concern ?

    Corrado ......Corde / Capitol / Maestose xx / Frivol xx

    Clearway .....Capitol / Lord / Ramiro

    Cassini........Capitol / Caletto II / Mahmud

    All examples of very little inbreeding.

    One needs to assertain that the breeding horses usually have less concentration of the two c lines than the sporthorses.



  18. #38
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    Cassall 1999

    Contender 1984 29 years old

    Corrado I 1985 28 years old

    Corrado II 1992 20 years old

    Clearway 1993 19 years old

    Cassini I 1988 24 years old

    Cassini II 1995 17 years old

    None of these stallions are inbred at all. The inbreeding seems to be in the 5th and 6th generations. They are all elderly and could well each have three or four generations of get--maybe more.

    So do the current young stallions show the same pattern of multiple crosses to the mentioned stallions only in the back part of the pedigree?

    Do Holsteiner breeders ever cross full brothers several generations down the road?

    Bayhawk, I'm not trolling. I'm really interested in the answers, since Holstein breeding really is among the very best ever.
    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
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  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by vineyridge View Post
    Cassall 1999

    Contender 1984 29 years old

    Corrado I 1985 28 years old

    Corrado II 1992 20 years old

    Clearway 1993 19 years old

    Cassini I 1988 24 years old

    Cassini II 1995 17 years old

    None of these stallions are inbred at all. The inbreeding seems to be in the 5th and 6th generations. They are all elderly and could well each have three or four generations of get--maybe more.

    So do the current young stallions show the same pattern of multiple crosses to the mentioned stallions only in the back part of the pedigree?

    Do Holsteiner breeders ever cross full brothers several generations down the road?

    Bayhawk, I'm not trolling. I'm really interested in the answers, since Holstein breeding really is among the very best ever.
    Champion stallion last year. Cositino by Cosido / Libertino / Tin Rocco
    Res. Champion last year Casall / Clearway / I Love You / Silvester

    Champion the year before by Larimar / Contender / Corofino

    People who are yelling about too much inbreeding in Holstein either don't know what they are looking at or are simply seeing ghosts.

    There is some crossing with full brothers. I see Caletto I & II in the same pedigree some and am starting to see a little bit of Cassini I & II in the same pedigree. This is absolutely sporthorse breeding though.

    The better breeding tactic is when you see full brother / full sister in the same pedigree.

    Askari is an example. Calypso and his full sister are there up close.

    Cash and Carry another with Landgraf and his full sister up close.

    Check out the Cantoblanco son from stamm 4965 in this years line-up. That in my opinion is not even inbreeding......I say it's flat out incest. Must be a nice horse though. It was selected out of hundreds.



  20. #40
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    Thanks, Bayhawk. It's really quite impressive how the stallions in the list have kept the staple stallions separate, more or less. The doubles all are in the back part of the pedigree.

    I, too, am shocked at the inbreeding on the Cantoblanco son.
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