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  1. #161
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    Aug. 29, 2012
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    Bahstin, Mass
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guilherme View Post
    A chain is a method of soring a horse. So is a stack (or "pads" or whatever else you want to call it). Take the "chain" way and the movement goes away. How can you claim something "trains" a horse when the removal of that something means the horse doesn't do it anymore???

    Ever watch a horse trained for mounted archery? If not Google it and watch the movement. THAT is what training does.

    I, too, don't know what else to say.

    G.
    Guilherme, I'm telling you that there are OTHER ways of using chains that have NOTHING to do with soring. Throw some chains on a saddle seat ASB or Morgan--they aren't sored, a sored horse can't trot!--and it's not abusive in the least.

    So, here's some simple math ...

    Chains + soring = ABUSE
    Chains + no soring = Training device

    Does that make sense? Not every person who uses chains is ABUSING their horses. That is the VERY VERY VERY simple point I am trying to make

    Full disclosure: I'm a dressage queen with a saddle seat past (Morgans in MA and ASBs in KY). So I've seen chains being used on non-sored horses. I *know* their purpose and they are not evil unless being used for evil, like soring.

    Again, chains + no soring = not abuse! Chains + soring = abuse!



  2. #162
    Join Date
    Nov. 13, 2005
    Location
    Clarksville, TN
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    489

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    Quote Originally Posted by aarpaso View Post
    now does this look NATURAL,or normal

    http://www.boblangrish.com/galleriesimage.php?id=6525
    Guess what else is not natural?

    -bits
    -spurs
    -bridles
    -whips/crops
    -horseshoes
    -blankets
    -saddles
    -splint boots
    -standing wraps
    -easy boots
    -concentrate feeds
    -anthelmintics
    -pharmaceuticals
    -shampoos
    -MTG
    -teeth floating
    -vaccinations
    -hoof trimmers
    -veterinary care in general
    -HORSE OWNERSHIP

    and the list just continues



  3. #163
    Join Date
    Oct. 10, 2007
    Location
    down south
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    5,060

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    http://blogs.equisearch.com/horsehea...e-celebration/

    What the heck is up with this photo? How much metal is in that?
    Horses aren't our whole life, but makes our life whole



  4. #164
    Join Date
    Apr. 3, 2006
    Location
    Spooner, WI
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    2,064

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rudy View Post
    Guess what else is not grotesque?

    -bits
    -spurs
    -bridles
    -whips/crops
    -horseshoes
    -blankets
    -saddles
    -splint boots
    -standing wraps
    -easy boots
    -concentrate feeds
    -anthelmintics
    -pharmaceuticals
    -shampoos
    -MTG
    -teeth floating
    -vaccinations
    -hoof trimmers
    -veterinary care in general
    -HORSE OWNERSHIP

    and the list just continues
    I fixed that for you. For anyone else wondering, when the whole rest of the horse world sees it as abuse/bad/grotesque/ugly. I suggest you stand back and take a hard look.



  5. #165
    Join Date
    Nov. 16, 2004
    Location
    NE Indiana
    Posts
    5,525

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rudy View Post
    Guess what else is not natural?

    -bits
    -spurs
    -bridles
    -whips/crops
    -horseshoes
    -blankets
    -saddles
    -splint boots
    -standing wraps
    -easy boots
    -concentrate feeds
    -anthelmintics
    -pharmaceuticals
    -shampoos
    -MTG
    -teeth floating
    -vaccinations
    -hoof trimmers
    -veterinary care in general
    -HORSE OWNERSHIP

    and the list just continues
    The argument is that the TWH moves like that "naturally", which we know that is actually doesn't...so, yo're missing the target completely with your lengthy list .



  6. #166
    Join Date
    Apr. 3, 2006
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    Spooner, WI
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigBayHanoMare View Post
    Guilherme, I'm telling you that there are OTHER ways of using chains that have NOTHING to do with soring. Throw some chains on a saddle seat ASB or Morgan--they aren't sored, a sored horse can't trot!--and it's not abusive in the least.

    So, here's some simple math ...

    Chains + soring = ABUSE
    Chains + no soring = Training device

    Does that make sense? Not every person who uses chains is ABUSING their horses. That is the VERY VERY VERY simple point I am trying to make

    Full disclosure: I'm a dressage queen with a saddle seat past (Morgans in MA and ASBs in KY). So I've seen chains being used on non-sored horses. I *know* their purpose and they are not evil unless being used for evil, like soring.

    Again, chains + no soring = not abuse! Chains + soring = abuse!
    I will say it until someone actually shows me its can't be done. How you know a horse that trots can't be sored?



  7. #167
    Join Date
    Feb. 13, 2006
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    652

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChocoMare View Post
    Yup... that pastern is a mess. It has the wavy hair indicative of "irritation." Wonder how that horse made it past the DQPs?
    Well, fguess what ...it did make it thru, plus all of the other methods that they have for inspection.
    Also front legs are wavy like this because they are always wrapped, which leaves the hair on the legs wavy.



  8. #168
    Join Date
    May. 16, 2007
    Posts
    1,122

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    What HIO hired the DQPs ? The horses were inspected pre-class but were the winners inspected post-class ? It is my understanding it is done differently depending on the show and what the HIO sets up. Would that pastern have passed a post-class inspection ?
    from sunridge1 Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.



  9. #169
    Join Date
    Nov. 13, 2005
    Location
    Clarksville, TN
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    The argument is that the TWH moves like that "naturally", which we know that is actually doesn't...so, yo're missing the target completely with your lengthy list .
    And you are being obtuse.

    The TWH should have a natural running walk. It does not matter what division the horse is being shown in, the running walk is natural to the breed. Pads enhance or exaggerate the movement the horse already has. If your horse does not have a running walk then no amount of padding is going to create it. As I have said before, the pads will both enhance the good as well as the bad in how a horse moves. If you have a horrible mover without pads, pads are only going to do so much but at the end of the day it is still not a great moving horse.

    My TWH has an ok gait. He would be fine for the trail pleasure division but would not place above midrange in any other level. He is great for me and my needs but is a padded flunky. Why? He does not have the range of motion or conformational angles in the front end to do much with it even with pads. Pads are not going to make his shoulder angle better, they are not going to make him go beyond what he has the potential to do. Will he have better reach with pads? Sure. Will he have higher knee action? Definitely. But will it be good enough to be competitive? No. Why? The horse doesn't have the foundation to make a great padded horse to begin with. No amount of creative shoeing is going to change that for him.

    To summarize...the running walk is natural to the TWH. There are conformational types more suited for one division over another as with every breed. The pads are not natural as with everything else we do with the horse and yes they are a man made way to exaggerate the gait....a gait which is already be there in some form.



  10. #170
    Join Date
    May. 16, 2007
    Posts
    1,122

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    After ten years of wrapping 1000's of standardbred legs - rubbing with alcohol, Stemz, Absorbine etc then wrapping i didnt get the wavy hair or scurf on clipped or nonclipped legs. I was taught to never wrap wet legs, we toweled the legs right after a bath and by the time the horse was cooled out, the legs were dry and ready for rubbing and wrapping. One extremely wise veterinarian told me that the act of rubbing did more good for a horse's legs than any liniment. He said that just using alcohol to keep the leg slippery while rubbing was very effective.

    Now if you get into painting DMSO or a DMSO mixture or counterirritants or some of the stronger liniments, that is a different story. Blistering the leg is yet another whole story. TG i didnt work on horses that needed that much done to them. I didnt want to be around a horse unless it was sound - at the high end of race horse sound. It made me too sad to work on one that wasnt sound and enjoying his job. When looking for a job i would tell a potential trainer/boss that i would not work on a horse that needed DMSO. They got the picture. No shenanigans. And the trainers i worked for were not needlemen. Any injections or blood pulls were done by a vet.

    Ball Solution would cause wavy hair plus build up a scurf. In my experience, Ball Solution was only used on the horses with issues - like an old bow or suspensory. Horses that really needed some help with circulation.

    You had to know your horse and know how sensitive he was. A little blue lotion patted onto the stifles, and rubbed into the whirlbone area and shoulders, when the horse was still steamy from his bath was a good thing, like a brace. Use too much and cause a scurf, well you would have to stop using it til the scurf went away so that was a waste of a product that can do good.

    So that was my experience - use mild stuff and rub a lot and the legs were scurf free and wavy hair free. The stronger stuff you used - the more likely it would be to get scurf and wavy hair.

    Who knows what goes on the legs of the TWH Perfomance horse.
    from sunridge1 Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.



  11. #171
    Join Date
    Nov. 13, 2011
    Location
    Lisbon, Portugal
    Posts
    1,451

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigBayHanoMare View Post
    So, here's some simple math ...

    Chains + soring = ABUSE
    Chains + no soring = Training device

    Does that make sense?
    NO. Not really. Can you explain exactly how chains are used as a training device in gaited breeds?
    Yes, I smell like a horse. No, I don't consider that to be a problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by DottieHQ View Post
    You're just jealous because you lack my extensive koalafications.



  12. #172
    Join Date
    Jul. 5, 2007
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    Beside Myself ~ Western NY
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    6,061

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    Quote Originally Posted by Niennor View Post
    Can you explain exactly how chains are used as a training device in gaited breeds?
    The chains make a noise. Hearing this improves their rhythm. As does gaiting them on a hard surface. If you doubt that than you will also doubt rhythm beads and the fact that a non-gaited horses will try to mimic the foot falls of gaited horses in their company.

    The chain tickles, they try to step out of it. This makes the travel path of the leg longer. Through this you can adjust the timing of the front or hind legs and therefore adjust the gait



  13. #173
    Join Date
    Dec. 30, 2006
    Posts
    1,209

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    But this effect is only when the chain is on and only till they get used to the tickle or the jingle, no? I really wonder how much it actually improves the trained or cued reach of a horse.

    I think the shoe and foot itself is a more determining factor - specially for the enhanced high steppers.
    from sunridge1:Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.it is going to be good until the last drop!Eleneswell, the open trail begged to be used. D Taylor



  14. #174
    Join Date
    Aug. 29, 2012
    Location
    Bahstin, Mass
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    601

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    Quote Originally Posted by SmartAlex View Post
    The chains make a noise. Hearing this improves their rhythm. As does gaiting them on a hard surface. If you doubt that than you will also doubt rhythm beads and the fact that a non-gaited horses will try to mimic the foot falls of gaited horses in their company.

    The chain tickles, they try to step out of it. This makes the travel path of the leg longer. Through this you can adjust the timing of the front or hind legs and therefore adjust the gait
    Thank you, SmartAlex. Defending my past discipline of choice is exhausting and I don't know how the ASB people do it day in and day out.



  15. #175
    Join Date
    Aug. 25, 2007
    Posts
    7,871

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigBayHanoMare View Post
    Guilherme, I'm telling you that there are OTHER ways of using chains that have NOTHING to do with soring. Throw some chains on a saddle seat ASB or Morgan--they aren't sored, a sored horse can't trot!--and it's not abusive in the least.

    So, here's some simple math ...

    Chains + soring = ABUSE
    Chains + no soring = Training device

    Does that make sense? Not every person who uses chains is ABUSING their horses. That is the VERY VERY VERY simple point I am trying to make

    Full disclosure: I'm a dressage queen with a saddle seat past (Morgans in MA and ASBs in KY). So I've seen chains being used on non-sored horses. I *know* their purpose and they are not evil unless being used for evil, like soring.

    Again, chains + no soring = not abuse! Chains + soring = abuse!
    No, your argument does not make sense.

    A "chain" is always "on." The horse does wrong, the chain corrects. The horse does right, the chain corrects. What is it about this simple bit of physics that you don't understand?

    Further, the action that chain elicits has significant long term, negative consequences for the horse. Not because of the chain, but because of the movement that the chain elicits.

    Compare to a spur. The horse does wrong, the spur corrects. The horse does right, the spur does not correct.*

    Again, the chain is an "action device" not a "training device." IMO it's abusive per se. As with all things, YMMV.

    G.

    *This assumes, of course, that the rider has control of their legs; if they don't then they ought not to be riding with spurs until such control is gained.
    Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão



  16. #176
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    Jul. 5, 2007
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    Beside Myself ~ Western NY
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    Quote Originally Posted by hurleycane View Post
    But this effect is only when the chain is on and only till they get used to the tickle or the jingle, no?
    Yes and no. If you are using chains just to improve motion, then yes, after the horse gets used to the tickle, they loose that extravagant snap. However, they will have the lingering benefit of having their muscles and joints limbered up and ready to go. Hence the practice of using chains as a warm up.

    And if you are using the timing and sound to show the horse what the gait is, once he's got the idea, there is a lasting benefit. Just like showing a horse any other expectation. Once the behavior is learned, we reduce the aids to a cue, eliminating the training tools one by one and only bringing them out as a refresher now and then.



  17. #177
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    Jul. 5, 2007
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    Beside Myself ~ Western NY
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigBayHanoMare View Post
    Thank you, SmartAlex. Defending my past discipline of choice is exhausting and I don't know how the ASB people do it day in and day out.
    It is exhausting... and embittering.



  18. #178
    Join Date
    Jan. 4, 2007
    Location
    TX
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    Quote Originally Posted by SmartAlex View Post
    It is exhausting... and embittering.
    I think that people have been seeing the terrible abuses in the gaited horses, paraded out there for all to see, as it should be and that is all they can think about.
    Any and all to do with that kind of horsemanship and training and riding is suspect by association.

    It will take some fast talking from those that don't think that is so to explain better what they do that is not abusive and why.

    You ought to try defending agriculture today.
    You would think people would consider at least that, unlike with the gaited horse world, that is a small horse industry, our continuing sustenance depends on agriculture.

    Whatever we do, when questions are posed, we should not resent them, but examine what we do and answer them.
    I do hear your valid complaints when you hit a wall of made-up minds.



  19. #179
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    Jul. 5, 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post
    You ought to try defending agriculture today.
    I know, we're all going to have to turn into fruitarians and gather our meals from the forest so we don't enslave any plants in unatural rows in the process

    But you're right, it does make you look at some of the accepted practices a bit differently and do a gut check on yourself.



  20. #180
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    Apr. 3, 2006
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    Spooner, WI
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    Life long ASB owner here. I'll fight to the death defending my breed. I will Not defend some of training and husbandry to make them a show horse today
    Saddle seat was my first love. You don't need all the fanfare to ride it. Up headed and a good trot is all you really need.



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