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  1. #141
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    Jan. 4, 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by hundredacres View Post
    Not me. I've never done ANY of those things. Ever. Never will.

    And if the chains don't weight anything, why use them? I'll never understand it...horses don't throw their legs in the air because they're wearing a 6 oz. boot on their leg, why would they for the chain? It doesn't make any sense.
    Never say never.

    Any time you own and much less ride a horse, there are plenty of people out there that think you are terribly abusing that horse, that should be running free.

    There have been high school kids that have been bullied because they had horses and "everyone knows" people that have them "are beating them with whips and spurring them bloody".

    What limits you set to "it's ok to do with MY horses", you will find many others thinking that is abusive.

    Perspective can help you understand where others are coming from, why it is not good to stand there throwing stones, when all that have animals are living in glass houses.

    Better stick to facts, what is clearly not right, not generalize to "all", whatever all is, is wrong.



  2. #142
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    Dec. 29, 2006
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    Davie, FL
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    964

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    Beautiful horse but...hmmm...look closely at the front pasterns on this one. The one on the ground looks raw and the other one looks like the skin is thickened into rolls. Maybe this picture needed some retouching...



  3. #143
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    Nov. 4, 2003
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    Dallas, Georgia
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2Jakes View Post
    Beautiful horse but...hmmm...look closely at the front pasterns on this one. The one on the ground looks raw and the other one looks like the skin is thickened into rolls. Maybe this picture needed some retouching...
    Yup... that pastern is a mess. It has the wavy hair indicative of "irritation." Wonder how that horse made it past the DQPs?
    <>< Sorrow Looks Back. Worry Looks Around. Faith Looks Up! -- Being negative only makes a difficult journey more difficult. You may be given a cactus, but you don't have to sit on it.



  4. #144
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    Oct. 10, 2007
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    down south
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    It sure does look raw. Maybe there is another explanation for it, at least I hope. I don't see how they'd make it through checks with that.
    Horses aren't our whole life, but makes our life whole



  5. #145
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    Jul. 5, 2007
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    Beside Myself ~ Western NY
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    8,553

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    You can get wavy leg hair simply by keeping a horse standing wraps. Especially if wrapped when damp, or the hair is not close clipped.

    Don't take the above statement as a judgement as to whether that horse is sore or not.
    Marriage: an on going experiment to prove there are at least two ways do do everything.



  6. #146
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    Nov. 4, 2003
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    Dallas, Georgia
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    True, but it does look raw... not just wavy. Who knows... if the horse passed inspection with live human eyeballs on it, who are we to say.
    <>< Sorrow Looks Back. Worry Looks Around. Faith Looks Up! -- Being negative only makes a difficult journey more difficult. You may be given a cactus, but you don't have to sit on it.



  7. #147
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    Aug. 29, 2012
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    Bahstin, Mass
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guilherme View Post
    The problem is "sticking" a foot the the ground while 1200 pounds of horse moves over it and then having it "explode" into motion and then have the horse "flinch" at the other end. A chain is not a "training device." It TRAINS nothing. It is a shortcut used by the incompetent and/or the abusive to obtain a certain leg action. It's that ACTION that causes long an short term injury to the horse.

    It's all physics and equine biomechanics. Good horsemen know that; the jack legs don't.

    G.
    Chains ARE a training device. Why are so many saddle seat horses (excluding TWHs for the moment and am talking about ASBs, Morgans, Arabs, etc.) that come out of GOOD programs who USE chains sound then?? A chain IS a training device, just like side reins, Vienna reins, draw reins, etc. Any of those in the wrong hands are shortcuts, too, BUT they do have their purpose. Same with chains!

    You're also missing my point ENTIRELY--a chain IS abusive on a sored horse. I said that in my post. However, on a horse that hasn't been sored, it is NOT ABUSIVE. Do you really believe that 16 oz. or less has THAT MUCH effect on a 1000 lbs. horse (again, presuming the horse hasn't been sored)? It's a whole 'nother ballgame when that chain hits the sored area. I am not talking about that! I'd like to beat a trainer who sores their horse in the face with 16 oz. of metal.

    Chains on a not-sored horse = help with rhythm and cadence. That. Is. It. Chains on a sored horse = leg lifting higher and higher to get away from the pain.

    I'm going to go beat my head against the wall because I don't have any idea how else to say it.



  8. #148
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    Aug. 11, 2003
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    3,589

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gnalli View Post
    Not good ones. I am the worlds worst photographer hands down. This is the link to my webshots page. The sorrel is barefoot there and my daughters were just playing with him. He is sound as a gold piece and 22 now. He was 12 there. No one told him that he is not a 2 yr old stud that stands 17.3 instead of an old gelding that is 14.1.

    http://family.webshots.com/photo/235...87069749jGbBzc
    That photo hurt me too. Chains, pads, long shank, no helmet, barefeet, shorts



  9. #149
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    Apr. 17, 2012
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    1,961

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gnalli View Post
    I said I had spent some time in his barn not that I hobnobbed with him. No, he didn't teach me anything.I had a father for that. I went to look at a horse at his barn. No, I didn't see any chemicals, no I didn't see him sore the horse.

    My skills involve good horsemanship, and hard work. I still it do it old school-break them to ground drive, then to pull a ground sled or plow (ground sled currently as I don't have a plow anymore) and a lot of hill work and wet saddle pads. I don't give a rats ass if you think I have any credibility or not because you don't matter to me or anyone I know on any level but as a Christian not wishing ill on people.

    I will be getting a prospect shortly-most likely right after Christmas-so let me offer you an invitation. You come watch me. You bring your self righteous self and I will show you how its done. Other than that, keep your opinions of my credibility to yourself. You think you are perfect and that if you don't like it then it is wrong. Not the case. Just because someone has associated with someone who has done something wrong, does not mean they are bad people. The horse world is small, and you will come across people that you may not agree with, but still have to deal with them.
    If you say you can do it without soring, OK, I'll bite. Please explain to me WHY you want to do BL; and I say that as a TWH owner.



  10. #150
    Join Date
    Nov. 16, 2004
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    NE Indiana
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    5,530

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post
    Never say never.

    Any time you own and much less ride a horse, there are plenty of people out there that think you are terribly abusing that horse, that should be running free.

    There have been high school kids that have been bullied because they had horses and "everyone knows" people that have them "are beating them with whips and spurring them bloody".

    What limits you set to "it's ok to do with MY horses", you will find many others thinking that is abusive.

    Perspective can help you understand where others are coming from, why it is not good to stand there throwing stones, when all that have animals are living in glass houses.

    Better stick to facts, what is clearly not right, not generalize to "all", whatever all is, is wrong.
    Bluey, your stand confuses me. You say, "Perspective can help you understand where others are coming from, why it is not good to stand there throwing stones, when all that have animals are living in glass houses."

    Where do YOU draw the line? If we don't have ANY line, where does abuse start? You keep saying different isn't wrong...well, sometimes it is! Soring horses is wrong. Stewarding horses is wrong. Drugging, hanging, studded nose bands, rollkur, riding yearlings, cathedral bits in the wrong hands......it's ALL wrong. Just because I don't do it doesn't mean I can't speak out against it. Why don't you share where exactly you draw the line? I just don't see your line anywhere because you seem to defend *different* as though it's some badge of honor that makes you better than the rest of us in because we won't accept their *different* as an acceptable way to treat horses. Are you defending Big Lick horses that are sored? Do you support Big Lick because it's different from all of the other horrible disciplines that are also abusive? Do you support a sport that has notoriously hidden the criminals and rewarded them regardless, because they are "misunderstood" by the general public? Because I just can't tell.



  11. #151
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    Jun. 12, 2011
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    Elkridge, MD
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    As a former saddleseat equitation rider (ASBs), I just want to comment that we hold our hands higher... because... the horse's... head... is... higher.... is this obvious to only me? It's the same principle as an automatic crest release... follow the horse's head.

    Yes, the men, for whatever reason, are generally far more hunch-y than the women.

    And, having been a SS rider for many years, yes, I can actually ride a horse. I know it looks different and scary and voodoo, but I can sit a buck with the best of 'em, and so can most of the kids in the UPHA medal and the "Good Hands" class (which is, uh, called that for a reason). I cannot speak for other ASB barns, but I rode with two of the best and biggest trainers in the business and the horses were, at times, pretty fresh. A fully keyed-up ASB is both the friendliest horse in the barn and the most showy.

    The majority of ASB people I know will not touch a Big Lick TWH with a ten-foot pole. The thing is -- there's no joy. I can easily find pictures (and see, I guess) ASB or Arab foals trotting above level in a field http://www.google.com/imgres?num=10&...11&tx=56&ty=60. I have never, like literally never seen a TWH doing the "Big Lick" gait as a foal or out in the field. Sure, they are gaited, and move differently, but the natural mechanics of the horse don't even approach the Big Lick. Why are we trying to make our horses do something they aren't naturally physically capable of? Horses jump stuff out in the field, they will do a showy trot in the field, they will "piaffe" in the field, they will do sliding stops...

    For all of you saying that you can run in heels (yes, I can also run in heels, I live in a city)... is someone riding you while you do it!? (Um... if there is, perhaps I don't want to know).

    I'm not trying to be "self righteous." Hell, I got out of showing any discipline entirely because of the abuses that I saw in all of them. I am just utterly confused as to how someone could a) enjoy riding that b) think it was OK to do.
    [/obligate outrage from ASB community at being lumped in with the TWH community. note that TWHs are generally no longer included -- cough, allowed -- in the ASB/Morgan shows. over and out. sorry.]


    1 members found this post helpful.

  12. #152
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    Apr. 17, 2012
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    The stupidity of it all is that the TWH was bred to cover the ground efficiently and effortlessly; and with a minimum amount of effort by the rider. They were bred to be ridden many miles, all day long, without getting tired or going unsound. This is the work the vast majority of them still do.

    The BL goes 180 degrees in the opposite direction; and I lay the blame at the feet of the breed association for promoting it.



  13. #153
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    Jan. 4, 2007
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    TX
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    Quote Originally Posted by hundredacres View Post
    Bluey, your stand confuses me. You say, "Perspective can help you understand where others are coming from, why it is not good to stand there throwing stones, when all that have animals are living in glass houses."

    Where do YOU draw the line? If we don't have ANY line, where does abuse start? You keep saying different isn't wrong...well, sometimes it is! Soring horses is wrong. Stewarding horses is wrong. Drugging, hanging, studded nose bands, rollkur, riding yearlings, cathedral bits in the wrong hands......it's ALL wrong. Just because I don't do it doesn't mean I can't speak out against it. Why don't you share where exactly you draw the line? I just don't see your line anywhere because you seem to defend *different* as though it's some badge of honor that makes you better than the rest of us in because we won't accept their *different* as an acceptable way to treat horses. Are you defending Big Lick horses that are sored? Do you support Big Lick because it's different from all of the other horrible disciplines that are also abusive? Do you support a sport that has notoriously hidden the criminals and rewarded them regardless, because they are "misunderstood" by the general public? Because I just can't tell.
    Look, I have said time and again that I don't even like any of those gaited horses like WH and ABS and other breeds that have fallen into such, Morgans and Arabians, when they move funny and throw their legs around and have cut tails trained over their backs and all that, much less the soring and padding.

    It is painful for me to watch some people do to horses, that happens here and there in all we do with horses.
    When it is just not very good horsemanship in my opinion, or crosses into abuse, there we need to know to make that important difference.

    What I am saying, complain about any abuses any place they happen, but remember not to throw the whole away because of abuses, because abuses can happen any place, even in what you do and yes, "abuse" is a moving target any more, depending on who is looking and doing the talking.



  14. #154
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    Apr. 3, 2007
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    377

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    Quote Originally Posted by SwampYankee View Post
    The stupidity of it all is that the TWH was bred to cover the ground efficiently and effortlessly; and with a minimum amount of effort by the rider. They were bred to be ridden many miles, all day long, without getting tired or going unsound. This is the work the vast majority of them still do.

    The BL goes 180 degrees in the opposite direction; and I lay the blame at the feet of the breed association for promoting it.
    That is correct the TWH was bred to carry the plantation owner thru the fields checking his crops and farm hands for hundreds of acres all day long.

    If twhbea had STOPPED this Big Lick back in the 50's it would not be here today.the true villian is TWHBEA,now they claim its not THEIR problem they are only a bred registry.REALLY check the board of Directors violation list.Who is running TWBEA?



  15. #155
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    Aug. 25, 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigBayHanoMare View Post
    Chains ARE a training device. Why are so many saddle seat horses (excluding TWHs for the moment and am talking about ASBs, Morgans, Arabs, etc.) that come out of GOOD programs who USE chains sound then?? A chain IS a training device, just like side reins, Vienna reins, draw reins, etc. Any of those in the wrong hands are shortcuts, too, BUT they do have their purpose. Same with chains!

    You're also missing my point ENTIRELY--a chain IS abusive on a sored horse. I said that in my post. However, on a horse that hasn't been sored, it is NOT ABUSIVE. Do you really believe that 16 oz. or less has THAT MUCH effect on a 1000 lbs. horse (again, presuming the horse hasn't been sored)? It's a whole 'nother ballgame when that chain hits the sored area. I am not talking about that! I'd like to beat a trainer who sores their horse in the face with 16 oz. of metal.

    Chains on a not-sored horse = help with rhythm and cadence. That. Is. It. Chains on a sored horse = leg lifting higher and higher to get away from the pain.

    I'm going to go beat my head against the wall because I don't have any idea how else to say it.
    A chain is a method of soring a horse. So is a stack (or "pads" or whatever else you want to call it). Take the "chain" way and the movement goes away. How can you claim something "trains" a horse when the removal of that something means the horse doesn't do it anymore???

    Ever watch a horse trained for mounted archery? If not Google it and watch the movement. THAT is what training does.

    I, too, don't know what else to say.

    G.
    Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão



  16. #156
    Join Date
    Mar. 15, 2006
    Location
    Cartersville, GA/Jacksonville, NC
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    286

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    Quote Originally Posted by Regala View Post
    that link is to a horse in full stacks, ridden by a girl with no helmet and barefoot, sitting unbalanced on the horse's loin, and hauling on the reins attached to long shanks.

    i appreciate you trying to explain, but the picture i'm seeing is not a shining example of good horsemanship, or natural movement, or a happy, relaxed horse. and i better go explain to a couple of my horses that 12 is "old".
    Regala, I'm the girl on the big black horse. Yes I was barefoot and helmetless. At that point in time, I did not see the point in wearing a helmet on any horse save for the greenies that we were gentling. I was barefoot simply because I went to the barn that day to visit. I had been wearing Birkenstocks but when I was asked to ride, I kicked off my shoes after mounting.

    As for your claim that I was sitting unbalanced, yes I was. I ride sitting slightly cockeyed. It has never to my knowledge adversly affected any of my horses' gaits, TWH, Arab, or QH.

    Lastly I was NOT hauling on Blue's mouth! If you'll look closely at the picture of that ride, you'll see that I only have contact on his mouth, except on the left hand side. I do have a slight bit of pressure on that side to keep him off the fenceline. He was very very right handed, so to speak.
    Devil Pup 13 May 2010
    Veni, vidi, nates calce concidi
    Molly~4yo Blue Heeler & Dakota Nov 09 Baby Heeler



  17. #157
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    Oct. 10, 2007
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    down south
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    Chains are used at some barns that are very heavy. The point of a chain is to make the horse pick their feet up higher. Just like putting a heavier shoe on a horse. Go out and put heavy chains on a qh and he will also pick up his feet higher than usual. Not to the degree of these horses but he will. I agree that it is crazy what they do to these bl horses. Why can't they just go natural the way they are suppose to go? What is the obsession with bl and people? Even my vet did say it is not good for the horses. It is not natural. I compared to say the work up a gp dressage horse. His answer well that is hard work but it's natural for the horse. The horse does those things out in the wild. Is it hard on them, yes it can be if done to hard and to fast but bl is much worse on the horse.
    Horses aren't our whole life, but makes our life whole



  18. #158
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    Nov. 13, 2011
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    Lisbon, Portugal
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    Quote Originally Posted by hundredacres View Post
    It doesn't matter what other people do to their horses in other disciplines and in backyards all over the world - it will never minimize or absolve what happens to TWH's to make them look like this. To say this looks "fine" and the horses look happy is like saying soft porn with teens is okay, because it's not real porn and the girls enjoy what they're doing.

    It's the most unnatural discipline in the horse world and people get their rocks off on how much more grotesquely one horse can move over another. The people who enjoy it are defective.
    *standing ovation*

    Who cares if the footage is made my animal right extremists or just another Joe? The videos speak for themselves. The horses on the HSUS video are being beaten and sored without mercy, period.
    Yes, I smell like a horse. No, I don't consider that to be a problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by DottieHQ View Post
    You're just jealous because you lack my extensive koalafications.



  19. #159
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    Oct. 10, 2007
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    down south
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    http://www.horsegroomingsupplies.com...on-160044.html

    Go to the 3rd post and check out the difference in the to photos and where this sport has gone. First photos the man looks great, soft hand following the horse, nice seat then the second picture ughhh
    Horses aren't our whole life, but makes our life whole



  20. #160
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    Apr. 3, 2007
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    377

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    now does this look NATURAL,or normal

    http://www.boblangrish.com/galleriesimage.php?id=6525



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