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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guilherme View Post
    I concur that "different" is not necessarily wrong. In this case, however, it is.

    I also agree that every breed has its outlaws and renegades. That does not excuse, explain, justify, or mitigate what happens in the Walker show ring.

    The idea that Walkers have been "bred for this" is wrong. They have been bred to pace and the pace is turned into the Big Lick by the application of instrumentalities. Think of it as the gait being "nailed on" vice being bred or trained in. Some of the instruments used are legal, some are not. The HPA defines them.

    Some folks would have you believe that if chemicals are not used it's not "soring." That is wrong in both a legal and practical sense. Chemical soring is but one arrow in the quiver of the Big Lick lick trainer.

    The process of creating of the Big Lick gait is an abomination and deserves the harshest of criticism.

    G.
    To someone like me, that don't know one gait from another on those horses, a TWH or an ASB, they all motor around a ring very much in a very odd way, not right for how a horse should move.

    I don't think that, to the uninitiated, there is much difference there, is all goosestepping oddly.

    When those questions have come up here, those that like gaited horses always explain those horses move like that and training just enhances that to those extremes seen in the videos and yes, some use abusive methods to train, against regulations and there are stewards trying to avoid that.

    The ones explaining that have posted videos of foals going around the pasture moving like that.



  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post
    To someone like me, that don't know one gait from another on those horses, a TWH or an ASB, they all motor around a ring very much in a very odd way, not right for how a horse should move.

    I don't think that, to the uninitiated, there is much difference there, is all goosestepping oddly.

    When those questions have come up here, those that like gaited horses always explain those horses move like that and training just enhances that to those extremes seen in the videos and yes, some use abusive methods to train, against regulations and there are stewards trying to avoid that.

    The ones explaining that have posted videos of foals going around the pasture moving like that.


    Bold mine- not trying to pick a fight but do you have a link? Not that I believe or dis believe - just want to see foals doing the big lick in the pasture



  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by redalter View Post
    [/B]

    Bold mine- not trying to pick a fight but do you have a link? Not that I believe or dis believe - just want to see foals doing the big lick in the pasture
    No, the last one I remember was months ago, a lighter colored foal with white legs and maybe bald face and was moving around it seemed on very, very loooong pasterns.

    Maybe the original poster remembers and will repost it?



  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeteyPie View Post
    Painful to watch. More painful for the horse to experience. But the fat trolls hunched over those horses were yucking it up and smiling big. They enjoyed it.
    Ninety percent of the people who ride walking horses ride correctly, but there is , I agree, a certain % that look terrible on walking horses. Why don't you ever comment about the % that ride with ease and correctly, rather then always pointing out the bad examples. I guess that isn't interesting to talk about!



  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by cordial View Post
    Ninety percent of the people who ride walking horses ride correctly, but there is , I agree, a certain % that look terrible on walking horses. Why don't you ever comment about the % that ride with ease and correctly, rather then always pointing out the bad examples. I guess that isn't interesting to talk about!
    Correct?
    http://whenthepaintedhorsecomes.blog...-world_30.html
    WTH are they doing??? ((nice riders toward the bottom)^

    Even the rider on the Breyer model is hunched over!
    http://www.oocities.org/roddycreek/creathist.htm

    Big names and they ride like crap:
    http://irjci.blogspot.com/2012/05/fe...tennessee.html

    Oh look! A mere child, beautiful seat:
    http://www.timesfreepress.com/photos/2012/sep/02/71712/

    Here's a rider on a BL horse with a nice seat...too bad she's got her toes out so she can spur the creature to crawl even harder (note how tense and pissed off she looks) - why use leg when you've got spurs? The horse looks worse than a rollkured mess:

    http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/2...rsy-tennessee/

    Again, this is not about other disciplines...we can start other threads on those (there are many, many, many). WHY do BL riders win, looking like that? How can anyone think that the hunched over, tense, jaw jutting forward, looks "correct"?



  6. #86
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    Because unless it is an equitation class, it is not about the rider but the horse's movement. You could ride backwards and upside down in a class and win IF you had the best moving horse.

    I hate the hunched look and it is becoming more popular. Women, youth, equitation, and some male riders do not generally ride that way.

    And yes...when riding saddleseat there is little to no contact from the calf down. It's called get the hell out of the way and let the horse do what he is supposed to do with as little disturbance from the leg as possible unless there is a cue given.



  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by cordial View Post
    Ninety percent of the people who ride walking horses ride correctly, but there is , I agree, a certain % that look terrible on walking horses. Why don't you ever comment about the % that ride with ease and correctly, rather then always pointing out the bad examples. I guess that isn't interesting to talk about!
    do you mean 90% of all, or of those who show? if the latter, could you post some links or documentation of that majority, or of any who win?

    i'd also be very interested in seeing video of young horses naturally doing a big lick gait. might change my opinion if i could see that.



  8. #88
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    It seems like the older the pictures, the less horrible they look. The pictures from the 60's back looked really nice - both horses and riders. I don't know how or why it morphed, but it's happened to many disciplines. Perhaps it's the farther removed we get from riding as a technical, revered skill, and closer to riding for cash *sigh*.



  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by hundredacres View Post
    Correct?
    http://whenthepaintedhorsecomes.blog...-world_30.html

    WTH are they doing???

    Even the rider on the Breyer model is hunched over!
    http://www.oocities.org/roddycreek/creathist.htm

    Big names and they ride like crap:
    http://irjci.blogspot.com/2012/05/fe...tennessee.html

    Oh look! A mere child, beautiful seat:

    http://www.timesfreepress.com/photos/2012/sep/02/71712/

    Oh, here's a rider on a BL horse with a nice seat...too bad she's got her toes out so she can spur the creature to crawl even harder (note how tense and pissed off she looks):

    http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/2...rsy-tennessee/

    Again, this is not about other disciplines...we can start other threads on those (there are many, many, many). WHY do BL riders win, looking like that? How can anyone think that's the hunched over, tense, jaw jutting forward, looks "correct"?
    There is room for improvement in some peoples equitation, I will grant you that. BUT, there are different ways of riding every horse. The bit about the stirrups being too long is wrong. For us, that is correct. We (at least everyone I know) ride a gaited horse from the knees to the hips with very little contact of the lower leg. I know for my bunch, we keep the heels away unless we are touching them with a spur. Note I said TOUCH. I don't do more than that. I ride with a very long stirrup and kick my feet forward on a gaited horse, almost in a dreaded chair seat as with many I have ridden, sitting on my pockets tends to be the way they work better.

    On a trotting horse, a line can be drawn thru ears, shoulder elbow hips and ankles. Trotting horses require a different way to ride. I guarantee if someone came over and tried to ride my Renegade the way they do a trotting horse, they would not get a good ride, and might get dumped. The "buttons" are different. There are no foot cues. I ride with contact but not pressure. It may look differently, but my curb chains are loose enough to allow the contact. If you pull back on the gaited stock I know, and squeeze, that is a cue to go on down the road and get with it. To stop, bump, sit up and say whoa. He stops.

    The hands being held up is mainly a ASB thing, but depending on what I am asking of the horse , and how he is responding, my hands are in varied positions.

    As for the hunched over,yeah it is ugly. The thing is though, that on some of these that really have a deep reach in the back you are in danger of sliding backwards.

    Facial expressions are personal, and I have seen riders in other disciplines that look meaner than a striped snake if you go just by their facial expressions. Personally, when we are in the ring, we're smiling and enjoying ourselves 90% of the time. My oldest tends to get very serious and keeps a straight face. My youngest giggles silently.
    http://community.webshots.com/album/548368465RfewoU[/url]

    She may not have changed the stars from their courses, but she loved a good man, and she rode good horses….author unknown



  10. #90
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    gnalli, thanks for the explanations. Do you have pictures? I'm not being snarky, I'd like to see them. I can see some of those better riders are on calm, relaxed horses - it's good to see.



  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by hundredacres View Post
    Correct?
    http://whenthepaintedhorsecomes.blog...-world_30.html
    WTH are they doing??? ((nice riders toward the bottom)^

    Even the rider on the Breyer model is hunched over!
    http://www.oocities.org/roddycreek/creathist.htm

    Big names and they ride like crap:
    http://irjci.blogspot.com/2012/05/fe...tennessee.html

    Oh look! A mere child, beautiful seat:
    http://www.timesfreepress.com/photos/2012/sep/02/71712/

    Here's a rider on a BL horse with a nice seat...too bad she's got her toes out so she can spur the creature to crawl even harder (note how tense and pissed off she looks) - why use leg when you've got spurs? The horse looks worse than a rollkured mess:

    http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/2...rsy-tennessee/

    Again, this is not about other disciplines...we can start other threads on those (there are many, many, many). WHY do BL riders win, looking like that? How can anyone think that the hunched over, tense, jaw jutting forward, looks "correct"?
    Again, I said that the way some of them ride, I don't like anymore then you do, but for everyone who rides like that, there are many more that do not. . By the way have you ever ridden a good gaited Walking horse?



  12. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by cordial View Post
    Again, I said that the way some of them ride, I don't like anymore then you do, but for everyone who rides like that, there are many more that do not. . By the way have you ever ridden a good gaited Walking horse?
    Not personally. I ride with a friend who rides a TWH horse (trail)...I'm forever trotting to catch up with her. She has a lovely, dressage seat. Her horse was sored in his past life.

    I truly have no beef with the good riders on the horses that don't move unnaturally for the breed.



  13. #93
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    A big lick is man made. It's not natural for them to move that way sorry bluey some may have more expression than others just like dressage horse at upper levels. Totilas is very expressive and that is natural for him and some twh are more expressive in their gaits but the big lick you see today is man made with pads and chains and sometimes other methods. I have a big lick line twh with every horse 6 generations back being top big licks and world champions in big lick. He does not move at all like the horses you see know days. Why do you think there is a difference between flat shod horses and padded? My guy is a trail horse that came to us after being abused to be that star that his bloodlines shows but he was not the horse for that and didn't work out for them and their methods.

    Also the person that said something about putting pads back on an unpadded horse, that she didn't want to do that. The reason would be just like putting wedges on your horse. You can't just jack a horse up in front 3 degrees nor can you just drop them down with out possibly pulling tendons and straining muscles. You have to do that over time. Is it abuse, idk, many people I know that don't ride think eventing is abuse in a way because it's so dangerous for the horse. I dabbled in eventing and I love watching it but I dont think it's abuse. But one can argue that more horses are probably injured or killed yearly eventing than twh's. So what constitutes abuse. If a horse is well cared for and trained properly then is it abuse. I don't know. It's interesting and I'm going to ask my vets opinion tomorrow when he's out about it. Is it hard on hocks, probably but isn't jumping also, or dressage? Isn't almost all horse sports this is why we give joint injections and legends etc. I'm not defending nor am I for it because I really can't tell you if I'd call it abuse or not. Do I like it noooo. Hate the way the horses look. Very weird but is it abuse idk
    Horses aren't our whole life, but makes our life whole



  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by hundredacres View Post
    gnalli, thanks for the explanations. Do you have pictures? I'm not being snarky, I'd like to see them. I can see some of those better riders are on calm, relaxed horses - it's good to see.
    Not good ones. I am the worlds worst photographer hands down. This is the link to my webshots page. The sorrel is barefoot there and my daughters were just playing with him. He is sound as a gold piece and 22 now. He was 12 there. No one told him that he is not a 2 yr old stud that stands 17.3 instead of an old gelding that is 14.1.

    http://family.webshots.com/photo/235...87069749jGbBzc
    http://community.webshots.com/album/548368465RfewoU[/url]

    She may not have changed the stars from their courses, but she loved a good man, and she rode good horses….author unknown



  15. #95
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    Mama did you really have to link directly to that picture of me? Not the best shot of our ride. my leg was misplaced because I'd just kicked off my shoes and regained my stirrups but such an awesome horse!
    Devil Pup 13 May 2010
    Veni, vidi, nates calce concidi
    Molly~4yo Blue Heeler & Dakota Nov 09 Baby Heeler



  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gnalli View Post
    Not good ones. I am the worlds worst photographer hands down. This is the link to my webshots page. The sorrel is barefoot there and my daughters were just playing with him. He is sound as a gold piece and 22 now. He was 12 there. No one told him that he is not a 2 yr old stud that stands 17.3 instead of an old gelding that is 14.1.

    http://family.webshots.com/photo/235...87069749jGbBzc
    that link is to a horse in full stacks, ridden by a girl with no helmet and barefoot, sitting unbalanced on the horse's loin, and hauling on the reins attached to long shanks.

    i did see other albums, but was time consuming to try to find what you wanted to show. do you have a direct link to the barefoot horse? did you mean that there were some walking horses who were relaxed and happy (don't think anyone doubts this), or ones with/showing a big lick gait?

    i appreciate you trying to explain, but the picture i'm seeing is not a shining example of good horsemanship, or natural movement, or a happy, relaxed horse. and i better go explain to a couple of my horses that 12 is "old".


    1 members found this post helpful.

  17. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by trubandloki View Post
    Just because this is not what I think a horse should do does not mean it is evil. These horses have been bred to move like this.
    .
    No. These horses, TWH, have NOT been bred to move like the Big Lick. Never has any barefoot TWH been seen Big Licking around the pasture. No frisky foals Big Licking around spontaneously. The only thing that the Big Lick highlights is that these horses are bred to put up with a LOT of crap and work through pain and discomfort w/o killing the humans involved.

    I have a rescue Horse that was reserve champion in the Big Lick Plantation class at the KY State Celebration as a 2 yr old; and she has lovely, smooth gaits barefoot; but she does not do the Big Lick freaky gaits barefoot.

    She DOES have arthritis in her back end -- very mysterious, no?

    You can see a great side by side comparison b/t Big Lick and a natural gait here, at the 1999 TWBEA Celebration -
    http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=E29Pk...%3DE29Pk1yavGs

    The history of Big Lick and TWBEA Celebration controversies and the soring and the pads speak for themselves. When companies refuse to buy ads or sponsor shows w/ Big Lick classes and when people quit showing up to watch them and when non-Big Lick TWH owners rise up against the TWHBEA; Big Lick will fade away.
    Last edited by ldaziens; Oct. 2, 2012 at 07:02 AM. Reason: clarification
    Disclaimer: Just a beginner who knows nothing about nothing



  18. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by redalter View Post
    [/B]

    Bold mine- not trying to pick a fight but do you have a link? Not that I believe or dis believe - just want to see foals doing the big lick in the pasture
    Waiting to see this.
    Disclaimer: Just a beginner who knows nothing about nothing



  19. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by cordial View Post
    Ninety percent of the people who ride walking horses ride correctly, but there is , I agree, a certain % that look terrible on walking horses. Why don't you ever comment about the % that ride with ease and correctly, rather then always pointing out the bad examples. I guess that isn't interesting to talk about!
    Okay, let's just focus in on the highest level - TWHBEA National Celebration Plantation / Big Lick class. What percentage ride correctly at that level? Define correctly, please.
    Disclaimer: Just a beginner who knows nothing about nothing



  20. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by ldaziens View Post
    Okay, let's just focus in on the highest level - TWHBEA National Celebration Plantation / Big Lick class. What percentage ride correctly at that level? Define correctly, please.
    Yes, somebody define this. Correct for dressage is not the same as correct for huntseat which is not the same as correct for saddleseat or western. If the standard for correct was the same for all seats there would be 1 style saddle for all types of riding, with different sizes for different horses or riders.

    Correct is relative when talking about different styles of riding.

    By the way, as a SS rider, most dressage riders look horrible to me on a horse, and H/J folks look like frustrated jockey wanna-bes.


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