[JustJumpIt!]

Six months ago we adopted a rescue dog, a foxhound. He was gentle, friendly, sweet, good with my three young kids. Needed some manners (counter surfing, chewing), training (only partly housebroken), and weight (ten pounds underweight), but the basics seemed to be there. He had horrible separation anxiety and we battled that for months with training and meds. We seem to be mostly past that now.

We got the weight on him and fixed up a couple of minor health issues. Went to a basic obedience class and then CGC class. He goes on daily runs with me for several miles. He adores me, likes the kids, tolerates my husband. Over the summer we acquired a second dog, a young female BC mix, from family who had health problems - the dogs get along fabulously and there are no issues.

Then things began to escalate. As rescue dog gains confidence, he starts showing flashes of aggression - he snapped at my three year-old daughter when she told him "no" for eating the sandwich she'd dropped on the floor. He started to snap at my husband when he'd try to take away a kid-toy getting chewed or shoo the dog off the couch. He flunked his CGC class for growling at being petted. I'm not a dog newbie and we've done lots of socialization work... it just doesn't seem to help. Just this morning I had to break up a dogfight - the BC mix was yelping and trying to get away and rescue dog had her pinned. She got loose and we've had them separated for the rest of the day.

He's a good dog. He had a rough start - there's evidence of abuse somewhere in his past. But he can't stay in our family - I have three young children and a fourth on the way, and I can't risk someone getting hurt while I work on more training, more socialization. The question is - with a history of biting (he's made contact a few times, although no injuries so far), should he be in any family? The rescue will take him back, although they're not very discriminating - they'll put him back out there with a "no kids, no other dogs" disclaimer. They don't seem to have very knowledgeable foster homes, so I don't think that's an option for him. I don't want anyone getting hurt, but I don't want to jump the gun on not giving this dog another chance either.

We have a routine visit with the vet tomorrow and I'm going to get her opinion on this, too. I'll call both of the trainers we've worked with in our obedience classes and talk with them. If he can be safely and happily rehomed, I'll speak with the rescue and he can go back with full disclosure of his issues. If the concensus is that he can't be rehomed, then I'll buy him a tummy full of Big Macs and he can go to romp in the great fields in the great beyond with his head in my lap.

Advice? Things we should try? Reassurance that I'm not crazy and we're not "giving up on him"?

[Superminion]

I feel for you! I adopted a GSP years ago from a breed rescue. He was a great boy but really nervous. The rescue said that he had been found wandering the streets, and had passed all their tests. We had another female GSP and were comfortable with the breed.

We got him home and I bent to put his collar on and he snapped at me. No warning growl, just BOOM... teeth to face. I called the rescue right away and they sent a behaviourist up to see him, and he was (naturally) perfect. The behaviorist (I know I'm not spelling that right, I'm sorry) reported back to them that the snap was a fluke and I was overreacting. Over the following weeks he got worse and worse, snapping at me when I tried to call him off the bed, couch, or just snap his leash on. We spent $$$$$ in trainers, and DH could handle him just fine. He just kept getting worse. I stayed in daily e-mail/phone contact with the resuce, and finally told them that we needed to send him back. He only outweighed me by 10lbs and he was so unpredictable.

The resuce informed me then, that they wouldn't take him back, since he had a history of biting, but they were happy to send the behaviorist back for another consult to help, she again stated that he was settling in fine and I just needed to be more aggressive with him. I begged them to take him back for weeks and they started ignoring my e-mails and phone calls. He finally dislocated my shoulder one morning when I walked past him in the living room.

At that point, we felt that we had done everything that we could with him, and his issues were beyond our relm of control. We had used every resource that we could have. Vets, various trainers, meds, sent him away for doggie bootcamp, everything. We brought him in and put him to sleep. I didn't feel that it was the right thing to do to rehome him on our own, given his history. It wasn't an easy choice and I lost sleep over it, but I don't regret it.

I had informed the resuce that if they didn't take him back by 'x' date, he was going to be put to sleep. They ignored me. When the date passed, I got a surprise visit from the behaviorist who was livid that we had put him down. She called the director of the rescue, who called me and screamed that we had 'broken contract' by putting him down. It ended up being a 6 month long headache in and out of small claims court, that we eventually came out on the top of (thank god I kept all the e-mails and medical (my) records!).

Don't feel bad if you do end up having to put him down, moreso because you have a house of little ones. Please, please make sure that you don't end up in my situation, though! Keep all your records, ask your trainers to put things in writing if the dog doesn't improve, try to do the majority of your back and forth with the resuce in e-mail. Rescues can get nasty. Read your adoption contract and see what it says. Good luck, and I hope for everybodies sake that he decides to change his attitude!

[Casey09]

It is individual and only you have seen the behavior and know the dog. Definitely speak with your vet and others who know this dog. It sounds like, so far, he has snapped at people but not actually bit them. I would - with full disclosure - send him back to the rescue. Growling at a stranger petting him is not good behavior but I think it can be safely worked on. Possessiveness of food and toys is not good behavior but it can be worked on. He sounds like he has good bite inhibition, although clearly there are some issues with him being snarky. To me, that is something that some people without kids or other pets could work on.

[threedogpack]

Because they have loose guidelines, I'd be very hesitant to send him back, I am sure they will place him again, BUT read your contract. If that is what you are required to do, you must do it.

I'm so sorry you have had this experience. I hear stories like yours and Superminion's frequently and this is part of the reason I won't adopt a dog.

ETA: and I agree, you cannot safely keep him

[vacation1]

I think some dogs just aren't meant to be with kids - or maybe they're meant to be one-person dogs. Is it inate or a result of abusive/failed early owners? I dunno, maybe it's a mix. In any case, I think this dog isn't safe in a home with children. Bite or snap, inhibited or not, any dog that shows teeth to people shouldn't be with kids. If the rescue can rehome him to a childless single or couple who understand he has limits re: handling, I think he might be okay to pass along.

Just a thought - I know socialization is seen as a good thing, but not all nice dogs are particularly social outside their families. For some could-care-less-about-being-meeting-others types, socialization might not be a useful tool. Not to criticize OP or say that's what's happened here, just throwing it out since the dog seems to have some anxiety issues (ie, the separation anxiety).

[Casey09]

Just to clarify . . . I do agree with vacation1 that this dog is probably not the right dog in a home with kids. At the same time, the dog does not exactly sound vicious to me, just from the description of the incidents in question. Therefore, I wouldn't have an issue with seeing this dog rehomed to a home that is hopefully more appropriate and can work on the resource guarding.

[MunchingonHay]

When rehoming a dog that bites you have to inform the new owners and if the homeowner's insurance people find out, their insurance can go through the roof.

I am zipping up my flamesuit, but honestly there are great dogs out there that need great homes. Dogs that have been worked, given opportunity, etc and still act this way should be given the pink juice.


OR

See if there is an active hunt near you and see if they will take him.

[JustJumpIt!]

Thank you all... we're off to the vet this morning for a chat, and I've got a call with the instructor of one of his classes this evening. I agree that he could be turned around given the right, safe, home - but the rescue seems to be kind of "rainbows and butterflies" and I worry that he'd end up in the wrong home, or spend a long time living in a run at their facility - they hold large "adoption events" at stores, and right now I sure wouldn't feel that he'd be safe at an event with all the people crawling all over him. We spoke with them quite a bit about him before taking him, and he'd never shown this behavior before... but he was also kind of withdrawn, in hindsight.

[JanM]

What worries me, is the adoption event rehoming. Are they careful screeners, or do they pull the rainbows and butterflies method of any dog to any home? If you send him back, then get a release signed by who ever is in authority acknowledging that they know his aggression history, that you have warned them about homes with other pets or kids, and that they know he needs full disclosure to potential homes. CYA is important and emails don't cut it when someone tries to claim the rescue didn't know about the specific incidents.

[hitchinmygetalong]

Quote:

Just this morning I had to break up a dogfight - the BC mix was yelping and trying to get away and rescue dog had her pinned.

And this is a dog that he was getting along with very well up to this point, correct?

What does the foxhound do if you try and correct him? Does he "drop it" and back away a step, or give you an argument?

If he backs off, he may be okay but everyone in your household has to be trained to be top dog and be ready to reinforce it if the foxhound ever challenges. Everyone. That means the border collie, too. A tough assignment, especially with kids.

If he gives you an argument, this dog needs to go. You will never be able to trust him, and that's no way for you to live your life.

Personally, I would have him PTS. If I rehomed him and he injured a child, I would never forgive myself.

My sister was in the same boat only with her it was a Bassett. Beautiful dog, things started out fine. Then came the growling. Then the snapping. Then he nailed her in the hand. The dog was vicious with the vet, so much so they had to drug him heavily at home in order to take him in to have him PTS. She regretted having to make the decision but never regretted having done it.

Good luck, it's a tough spot.

[oliverreed]

I was in a similar spot earlier this year with a lovely rescue dog who turned out to be fear aggressive. Worked with a good trainer but she attacked a friend of mine who had met her before, without provocation. My vet and trainer both advised that we put her to sleep but I did manage to rehome her with a couple who train dogs for a living, way out in the country. This kind of outcome is very rare, I know.

I wish you the best of luck and if you have to euthanize this dog you have my support.

[wendy]

Honestly, do you think it's fair to pass an aggressive/biting dog off onto another unsuspecting family/ person? seems to me your choices are to either work on his issues yourself, or if you feel that's unsafe considering the need to keep your young kids and other dog safe, you probably need to step up and do the responsible thing and euth. Alternatively you can try to place him yourself so you can give the new owners a full run-down on his issues but really, who is going to knowingly adopt a dog with these kind of issues?

Consult a professional behaviorist who can watch the behaviors and give you an honest opinion about them and how to rehab and how difficult/ dangerous it might be. In general resource guarding, which sounds to be his major problem, is quite easy to re-train if you go about it properly. The other issues- growling at strangers and fighting with your other dog- not so much.

[vixen]

I used to have a dog like this. We made excuse after excuse for its behavior. "It's not that bad..." "We can train it out of him..." I went to trainer after trainer and the vet multiple times, spending over $10000 on this dog's behavioral issues.

It ended up biting me in the face, drawing blood and nearly blinding me. We STILL kept it.

It then attacked a child, like seriously went after a kid, snarling and lunging, while I was walking it. Thankfully it was leashed and no one was hurt. That was the last straw.

We managed to find him another home in rural VA, where he was subsequently PTS due to an incurable brain lesion.

This may be an unpopular opinion, but you DO NOT want to deal with any aggression issues when the dog has ANY chance of being within sniffing distance of any children. IMO, the first time that dog snapped at your small child, that was a serious issue and it would have been out of the door in my house. Dogs shouldn't attack kids. It's one thing if the dog growled at you ONCE for taking away food out of its mouth or something, but it's given you AMPLE warning. You continue to ignore it at your own detriment. I would not give it another chance to attack your kids.

[Doberpei]

I had a similar problem with a coon hound I adopted from a shelter. Thousands of dollars in, two trainers, numerous vets, and lots of advice later, he cornered me in my bedroom and let me know that it was his way or the highway. Knowing that he had been a favorite at the shelter, and that he didn't display this kind of behavior early in the relationship, and the fact that he was drop dead gorgeous, I couldn't take the risk that they would place him again, so I decided to put him down. I couldn't run the risk of him going somewhere else.

Some just can't be saved. We owe it to the ones who can to give them the chance.

[Rubyfree]

I am a little surprised you found a foxhound up for adoption. They aren't exactly flooding the shelters.

You may try contacting some local hunts to see if any experienced members might be in the market for a pet. He is likely too old to become a hunt dog, but a well-versed member of a hunt might be the best option for a dog like this.

Barring that- I would euth. You need this dog out of your home quickly & if you are not comfortable returning to the rescue- and I wouldn't be, with what you have described- that would be the kindest, safest option.

[Kryswyn]

I'm seeing a trend, and I'm going to add to it. I placed a 3 yo happy JRT with a woman with a 10 yo daughter and 7 yo autistic son. The dog went on a trial visit because I didn't know how he'd react to children. Two weeks later Mom calls, everything is beautiful. 3 months later she calls to say there are issues and her vet has recommended a trainer. 6 months after that she reports dog cannot be in room with son because of growling. Now a behaviorist is consulted and visits. 3 months go by. She calls to say she's at the end of her rope, does she have my permission to euth. Absolutely.

It seems that once these dogs get comfortable in their new environment their true temperaments come out as they try to find their new pack status.

[JustJumpIt!]

I took Mr. Foxhound to the vet yesterday and she was wonderful; we sat and talked for over half an hour and she spent a lot of time just working with him, seeing where his "buttons" were. He growled at her three times, even over simple things like listening to his heart.

She offered a trial with anxiety meds but since he'd tried prozac and xanax for his separation anxiety previously and I didn't see a difference in his behavior at all (he wasn't snapping or growling then, though), we decided that it probably wouldn't be useful. The vet clinic works with a DVM behaviorist and she suggested a consult, but as we talked, it ultimately came down to the issues could perhaps be fixed, but with three young children, it's not safe for them to be fixed in my house.

I spoke with the instructor of his basic obedience class from the spring - she'd only known him when he was pretty subdued and quiet. She said the only thing she could suggest was a behaviorist, but that she'd be hesitant to tell me to "stick it out" with young children.

So last night I reached out to the rescue, giving a brief run-down of his problems and asking them to contact me. I haven't heard back yet, but I plan to have a very frank conversation with them about what's gone on, the recommendations of the professionals we've worked with, and whether or not they have the capability to work with a dog like this - meaning likely a long-term foster home with a lot of experience with trouble dogs, and *very* selective placement should he be able to work through his issues. If they can't offer that, then I'll likely have him euthanized, and the vet has said that if it comes to that, she'll support me in the decision. Whatever happens, everything is going in writing and the vet's agreed to sign any documents attesting to the dog's behavior and my attempts to work through it.

I'll check back in when I get ahold of the rescue... thank you all for the advice and stories, it really helps me to feel like I'm not just giving up on this dog.

[Doberpei]

I went the medication way with my coon hound, and he actually became more aggressive. The trainer commented that the problem with these anxiety drugs is that they also take the brakes off the good anxieties, you know the ones that keep them from biting humans.

Good luck. It's such a difficult decision, and even when it's the right decision, it's hard.

[JustJumpIt!]

Doberpei - That's what happened with the xanax. He lost all his inhibitions, the bad ones and the good ones. I went to the restroom while the kids ate dinner and came back to the three kids sitting at the table, eating tacos, and the dog standing all-fours on the table, eating my taco... the meds just took away his ability to care about what was good and bad behavior.

[incentive]

Late chiming in, JJI, but I'll add to the list of those who will not fault you at all if you do have this dog put down. You certainly are giving him every chance. If the rescue does take him back, I would always be concerned about where he is and what he's doing. It's not worth the risk. If he's put down, you will know that he is not being mistreated and that he's not hurting anyone. {{{{{ HUGS }}}}} to you for trying so hard to do right by him.