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  1. #1
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    Default Another interesting "hot young stallion" vs "proven older stallion" tidbit

    I was just reading my most recent issue of "The Oldenburg Horse" magazine, published by the German Oldenburg Verband. In it, it mentions that (according to Katrin Burger, Deputy Breeding Director) in 2011, of the 20 most used stallions only 3 had offspring going under saddle. I was shocked by that statistic! She goes on to stress the importance of using older, proven producers and that breeders shouldn't be tempted by the young, hot stallions of the moments. She puts the "blame" for this trend on two main issues: the young horse classes rewarding big, swingy movement vs. breeding for true Grand Prix horses and (secondly) how this has affected the market into which breeders have to sell their youngsters.

    Very interesting food for thought coming from a registry official.
    Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm."
    --Winston Churchill
    https://www.facebook.com/pages/Hills...h/112931293227
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  2. #2
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    Good for Katrin. She is not only the breeding director but a talented rider. Katrin received two first places at the Oldenburg State Championships at Rastede this year, with two different Diamond Hit offspring..... so am thinking Diamond Hit may be on that list.

    Katrin is direct in her comments. There is no gray area. Asked her two weeks ago about a stallion to breed to my Licotus/Landadel that she had judged for her MPT. The mare will be bred ET, as is a competition horse. Katrin looked at me and said that is a problem. You will need to use a stallion that will not mess it up! And that was the end of the discussion. Not too much direction there but honesty about stallions in general.
    Nancy Holowesko
    www.crosiadorefarm.com
    Breeders of GOV Horses for Dressage


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  3. #3
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    Awesome that they have such a talented rider as the breeding director.. definitely makes sense. Does anyone know if she was the inspector for the GOV in Canada a few years ago? I went to watch one inspection here and I thought the inspectors did a great job and she (I think Katrin) did a young horse clinic. This year there was someone new..

    I just think it's hard as many breeders, probably most, breed to sell the offspring as foals and as we all know, "hot and flashy" sells. If we all had to keep these foals and develop them first we would probably be making some different decisions?. I know when I first started breeding I was thinking more along the lines of marketable foals, but now we keep them and develop them and because we also ride them, we are much more mindful of a stallions production record and in particular the rideability (and of course of having mares who also produce well in this regard!!).

    You can get away with a lot in a foal I think...if it is dark with flashy gaits and from one of these stallions it is easy to market. Many people really don't seem to look past that. A breeder truly has his/her work cut out if they are breeding first and foremost for a high quality dressage horse.

    The mare will be bred ET, as is a competition horse. Katrin looked at me and said that is a problem. You will need to use a stallion that will not mess it up!

    She must be very nice !
    www.svhanoverians.com

    "Simple: Breeding,Training, Riding". Wolfram Wittig.



  4. #4
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    Donella, the mare is very nice. But the lesson in this I think is.....no stallion is perfect....and do not expect miracles from stallions when your mare is less than special.

    Nothing new, but something that needs to be re-iterated as it is one of the more important factors when making breeding decisions. The other is that if you could breed the best to the best and get the best.....you would be in the money. But that theory does not work either. That is what makes breeding so interesting.
    Nancy Holowesko
    www.crosiadorefarm.com
    Breeders of GOV Horses for Dressage


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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Donella View Post
    Awesome that they have such a talented rider as the breeding director.. definitely makes sense. Does anyone know if she was the inspector for the GOV in Canada a few years ago? I went to watch one inspection here and I thought the inspectors did a great job and she (I think Katrin) did a young horse clinic. This year there was someone new..

    I just think it's hard as many breeders, probably most, breed to sell the offspring as foals and as we all know, "hot and flashy" sells. If we all had to keep these foals and develop them first we would probably be making some different decisions?. I know when I first started breeding I was thinking more along the lines of marketable foals, but now we keep them and develop them and because we also ride them, we are much more mindful of a stallions production record and in particular the rideability (and of course of having mares who also produce well in this regard!!).

    You can get away with a lot in a foal I think...if it is dark with flashy gaits and from one of these stallions it is easy to market. Many people really don't seem to look past that. A breeder truly has his/her work cut out if they are breeding first and foremost for a high quality dressage horse.

    The mare will be bred ET, as is a competition horse. Katrin looked at me and said that is a problem. You will need to use a stallion that will not mess it up!

    She must be very nice !
    Yes, she touches upon the marketability issue in the article; she goes on to say:

    " The older fashioned, slow maturing horses can be difficult to sell as foals and most breeders cannot afford to raise, train and hold onto dressage horses until they mature. The market breeders must sell to has sadly created a certain demand".

    I don't breed dressage horses, but I'm fascinated by this. With those numbers will it eventually affect the number of "true" Grand Prix horses, or will the sport adjust to the "new" type of horse? Or is the divide not that great?
    Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm."
    --Winston Churchill
    https://www.facebook.com/pages/Hills...h/112931293227
    www.HillsideHRanch.com



  6. #6
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    Donella - IIRC, Sarah Schroer did a YH clinic in Canada either last year or the year before. For several years, she was the head inspector in Canada (usually accompanied by Verband employee Bastian Scharmann). Sarah is no longer with the Verband, and this year, Marielle Oellrich went to Canada (accompanied by Bastian Scharmann). Marielle has been the breeding director for the Weser-Ems registry (the "Oldenburg" registry for sport ponies and small horses) for quite some years. She used to do inspections in NA more regularly, but after the birth of her twins a few years back, she hasn't been able to travel as much.

    And yes, it is wonderful to have an inspector who is a rider. And Katrin not only rides young horses, but she has also taken horses all the way to Grand Prix in dressage. The fact that she still rides and competes is one reason why she is not able to do a lot of inspections here - between her duties as Vice Breeding Director of the Verband, and her riding/competing schedule, she doesn't have a lot of extra time in her life!



  7. #7
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    Default

    And I haven't read the article yet, but I am not surprised about the statistics she quotes. Everyone wants to breed to the hot young stallions, because those are the ones that have caught the attention of the buying public, and therefore are the ones that will be easiest to market.

    Her comment says it all:
    "The older fashioned, slow maturing horses can be difficult to sell as foals and most breeders cannot afford to raise, train and hold onto dressage horses until they mature. The market breeders must sell to has sadly created a certain demand".


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  8. #8
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    Too expand on this conversation, De Niro was a stallion that was mentioned. Not always a foal producer or a young horse producer, but a stallion that is proving to be important in the upper levels of Dressage.
    Nancy Holowesko
    www.crosiadorefarm.com
    Breeders of GOV Horses for Dressage


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  9. #9
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    Just ran accrost this good thread from last year. I am wondering Donella who you ended up breeding the above mentioned mare (via ET ) to? How has it turned out. Some good points made above..
    Its the Journey not the Destination.


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  10. #10
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    Having been a breeder of warmbloods for longer than I care to admit anymore, I can't help but add my two cents worth to this discussion.... There is nothing wrong with breeding "flashy" foals provided you mean above average movement and looks with that adjective. I have bred plenty of Top Five KWPN-NA foals that were super flashy during their inspection and then impressed again when presented for their Ster/Keur inspections. At that point they have to be at least 3 years old and for the Keur predicate they have to perform a ridden test. You would be amazed how many of those flashy foals turned into excellent movers as adults! :-) I think it's very important for youngsters to be "correct" in both, conformation and movement, but I wouldn't automatically dismiss the "flashy" mover as a future disappointment....
    Siegi Belz
    www.stalleuropa.com
    2007 KWPN-NA Breeder of the Year
    Dutch Warmbloods Made in the U. S. A.


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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by siegi b. View Post
    Having been a breeder of warmbloods for longer than I care to admit anymore, I can't help but add my two cents worth to this discussion.... There is nothing wrong with breeding "flashy" foals provided you mean above average movement and looks with that adjective. I have bred plenty of Top Five KWPN-NA foals that were super flashy during their inspection and then impressed again when presented for their Ster/Keur inspections. At that point they have to be at least 3 years old and for the Keur predicate they have to perform a ridden test. You would be amazed how many of those flashy foals turned into excellent movers as adults! :-) I think it's very important for youngsters to be "correct" in both, conformation and movement, but I wouldn't automatically dismiss the "flashy" mover as a future disappointment....
    There is a ton of talented horses out there right now. It makes me wonder what will be the deciding factors of the ones that make it to the top. If any horse can make it to PSG (scores will vary greatly) then what abilities/temperament are going to get them further and how do you tell if a stallion can do that before his kids are of age?
    Jumping is so much more straight forward in terms of variables but dressage has more variables.



  12. #12
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    Stoicfish - I agree with you that there are a lot of very talented horses "out there".... In the end, it will be the rider and owner that make the difference because showing your horse at the right venues is getting to be more and more expensive. I've decided to hang on to one of my 3-year olds - well, I actually decided that when he was a foal :-) - and now it's primarily a question of how much money I have to invest in his progress... At this point I'm pretty sure I won't make it to PSG and the horse will be sold before then. This is where I think we could use some help from the USDF....
    Siegi Belz
    www.stalleuropa.com
    2007 KWPN-NA Breeder of the Year
    Dutch Warmbloods Made in the U. S. A.


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  13. #13
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    Above average "Flashy" movement is NOT for the average rider( which is most of the US market). It takes a rider with tact with a good seat and hands to take that type of horse up the levels.

    The question of what makes the difference between a PSG horse and a GP horse is TEMPERMENT and WORK ETHIC along with the ability to collect. Some of those flashy types will make it to GP if they were lucky enough to end up in the right hands. The rider/trainer will have established a working partnership with the horse and can reliably guess as to their future at GP.

    What I beleive the article speaks to is the conformation needed to go all the way. IMO horse needs a shorter cannon bone, long forarm, good size hocks and muscled gaskin with the right pelvic angle to "sit and carry". The more modern type has a short forarm and long cannons. This type of front end tends towards very flashy trot and uphill type canter, but also later on with the extended gates, suspensory injury.

    USDF can't take on this job of trying to "place" or help find the right rider for the right horse. We as breeders have to be creative to help the best pairing to happen. The USEF National Young Horse Championships next year is a talent search for the best horses. It can also be a wonderful marketing venue for the breeder and horses to be showcased.

    This is one of the focus points of the new USSHBA. To highlight US born/bred horses with top talent.
    Maryanna Haymon- Marydell Farm - Home to Don Principe & Doctor Wendell MF
    www.marydellfarm.com
    2012 USDF Champion Breeder! 2007, 2011 USEF Champ Breeder
    2009,2010,2011 USDF Res Breeder of the Year!


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  14. #14
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    Marydell - while I agree with some of your statements, isn't it also a choice you make as a breeder when it comes to the quality of horse you want to produce? Yes, the top moving horses typically require a better rider and they are out there. I happen to think that as a breeder you have to aim very, very high in order to consistently produce very good youngsters, and when you get that special one you will definitely find a client for it (at least that's been my experience). Look around you - there are lots of very talented riders looking for that special horse..... Having also been a stallion owner in a past life, I understand where that can be a limiting factor in your breeding program and may - on occasion - give you a slightly prejudiced view of other stallions' offspring. Owning a stallion in this country takes a lot of perseverance as well as strong financial resources, and it's very difficult/impossible to compete with the "latest flavor of the month stallions" that are advertised all over the internet.
    Siegi Belz
    www.stalleuropa.com
    2007 KWPN-NA Breeder of the Year
    Dutch Warmbloods Made in the U. S. A.


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  15. #15
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    yes, it is a choice of what one's breeding goals are. But the questions in this thread are old v new stallions.
    I have and still do use many outside stallions. But my goal is amatuer GP, not just market sales at a young age.
    That is a risk of using new and flashy- you just do not know if they can hold up to the work as they are usually not in performance past the 6 yr mark or if lucky, psg.
    Maryanna Haymon- Marydell Farm - Home to Don Principe & Doctor Wendell MF
    www.marydellfarm.com
    2012 USDF Champion Breeder! 2007, 2011 USEF Champ Breeder
    2009,2010,2011 USDF Res Breeder of the Year!


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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crosiadore View Post
    Too expand on this conversation, De Niro was a stallion that was mentioned. Not always a foal producer or a young horse producer, but a stallion that is proving to be important in the upper levels of Dressage.
    wonderful and very useful topic as it really comprises it all!
    and it is making me smile as i justed posted a feature about de niro on this board - sheer coincidence.
    as a matter of fact, while i was researching and analysing my very personal thoughts about de niro the outcome of it truly reflects all of what has been mentioned in this post so far:
    -the fact that breeding to young stallions has overcome breeding to old and proven ones
    -the time it takes to proof or disproof any given stallion by his get and respective performance under saddle
    -the difference in demand breeding for amateur vs professional riders
    -foal maker vs proven sport horse producers, differences or mutualities?

    while i do not want to hijack this topic in any case to advertise my own writing you might want to read the de niro feature anyway, as it does add to this topic in many respects - just love this topic!

    and it is not a new or recent development, either. even though the intial poster refers to an article dealing with 2011 breedings in oldenburg i remember dr. schleppinghoff stating exactly the same about ten years ago or so, but it was put in a different context:
    3 stallions of the same paternal line made up for more than 50% of oldenburg breedings back than (not sure if it was 50, think the number was even higher have been more.) 2 of these stallions were sons of the first and still needed to gain their second part of performance testing (respective sport qualification for the bundeschampionat or SPT). one of the two has meanwhile been gelded.


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  17. #17
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    fannie mae - while I don't dispute any of your statements, let me explain to you that 99.9% of all warmblood breeders in US are one-generational.... meaning that once they retire, their breeding business closes. Given that and the fact that the vast majority of clients has access to the internet and all the posts about the fabulous new stallions and how much their first foals sell for, what do you think these clients look for when buying horses? So, as a breeder in this country, and one that isn't independently wealthy, I have to respond to the market if I want to stay in business. It doesn't mean that I abandon all "good" breeding principles, however, it does mean that I have to listen to my clientele for some of the stallion decisions I make. Let's hope that there are enough "conscientious" breeders with deep pockets left in order to ensure the lofty goals of breeding for results in second and third generations. :-)
    Siegi Belz
    www.stalleuropa.com
    2007 KWPN-NA Breeder of the Year
    Dutch Warmbloods Made in the U. S. A.



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