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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bacchus View Post
    Ditto Laurierace. Why on earth would JC care about big money for breeders and owners of potential stallions in selling for export? Doesn't affect them at all. The only thing that affects the JC directly is the foal crop. (Other things affect its other companies, but the JC is all about registered Thoroughbreds.)

    Also, the amount of trainers who dope is pretty low. Tracks, etc., are picking up their punishments. The problem is the people like Joe Drape who dramatize it and make is seem as if every horse out there is being drugged and every trainer is a doper and the vets couldn't care less about the horses if they can make a buck. It just isn't true, but the general public is too clueless not to believe it
    I think the recent stances on medication by JC members are part theater and part culture war. The Europeans are still buying. The Tattersalls catalog has pinhooks from Kentucky and I saw recently even Baden Baden had some.



  2. #22
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    The JC, including Phipps, has been against drugs for years. I don't think it's theater, because the JC members I know who are against drugs mean it -- it's not a show. I'm not sure what you mean by "culture war." Also, not all JC members feel the same way
    "If you can't feed 'em, don't breed 'em."



  3. #23
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    Not to mention that if you use something illegal in racing...you're gonna get caught eventually. Yet not only do hunter barns apparently need sharps containers at shows, the debate is not "is it good for the horse" (see arguments here about Lasix) but "Is it illegal if they can't test for it/can get a vet to say it's 'therapeutic' use (dex)" and "wouldn't it be better to just make it legal since everyone does it anyway?" But RACING has the drug problem.



  4. #24
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    Nov. 30, 2000
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    Quote Originally Posted by vineyridge View Post
    It's rumored that the Europeans/Brits/Irish might be considering a ban on American imports of TBs unless we clean up our racing. That might be why the JC is finally speaking out.
    Like most rumors this one sounds sensational but is hard to believe. Who would enforce such a ban, the various JCs? Why would they want to do so against the wishes of their constituents? You need only look at the results of the recently completed Keeneland September sale to see how many yearlings were purchased for export, many of them expensive and well-bred. The reason for that is simple: the majority of American bred TBs exported to europe, the UK, Ireland, race very competively under those countries' rules.



  5. #25
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    Aren't most of the actual members of the Jockey Club breeders?
    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
    Thread killer Extraordinaire



  6. #26
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    The Jockey Club is a bit of a misnomer. It is not a club and it doesn't have members. All they do is register TBs.



  7. #27
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    Yes, it does have members, but it's not a member registry like AQHA. You can find a list of the members here:

    http://www.jockeyclub.com/factbook.asp?section=21

    Yes, many of them are breeders, but not all.

    The JC also has a few for-profit companies (money goes back into the TB industry -- well, what doesn't go into pay checks) and two charities. Quite a bit more than just registering TBs, although the main company is based on that.
    "If you can't feed 'em, don't breed 'em."



  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by BansheeBreeze View Post
    Jeez, I love how the owners here are painted as the innocent victims. You had horses in training with a trainer for how long and you just suddenly noticed these vet bills? Your trainer did not just suddenly start using these things. I think the owners are more the problems than anything else. They put so much pressure on trainers to win that trainers are quicker to resort to drugs or pushing the horses too far. Owners don't want to hear that their expensive investment needs "time off" or should be running at a lower price or god forbid, "just isn't that fast". Too many owners who aren't in it for the right reasons or are just blind to what goes on with their horses. If the trainer isn't producing results, they pull out and send them to whoever is "big" at the moment, ie most likely the guy using medications and pushing the horses to get them to win. Owners need to start stepping up and taking more responsibility for what goes on with their horses, just as much as the trainers do. I know there are plenty of great owners out there that take care of their horses, but there are also so many out there who just don't pay enough attention to what is going on. Trainers aren't paying for medications and vet bills out of pocket, that all goes straight to the owners.
    Absolutely. I'm casually acquainted with Ms Kane and know her to be a bit of a naiive person but this babe in the woods routine to what goes on at the track is laughable even from her. Owners know full well, they approve it with a wink and a nod and they bankroll it. They have convenient plausible deniability but rightfully should be held accountable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bacchus View Post
    Also, the amount of trainers who dope is pretty low. Tracks, etc., are picking up their punishments. The problem is the people like Joe Drape who dramatize it and make it seem as if every horse out there is being drugged and every trainer is a doper and the vets couldn't care less about the horses if they can make a buck. It just isn't true, but the general public is too clueless not to believe it
    Really? You see the questions on the trainers test lately? Is more about chemistry than anything about horses or tack.
    You see this? http://www.horseprerace.com/
    All guaranteed not to test.
    I recommend everybody get on board with this: http://cleanhorseracing.org/
    They also have a Youtube channel as well, check it out:http://www.youtube.com/user/CleanHorseRacing
    "I am going to have horse racing as my business, and my hobby will be punishing each and every one of you pinheads, so happy blogging you have my attention"
    Michael Gill-2010



  9. #29
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    Jan. 17, 2001
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    California
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    This is fascinating. Please continue the discussion. I am recently from the H/J world, and also own two OTTBs. One is from a reputable owner/breeder whom I am FB friends with, and who kept the mother and grandmother of my horse. I don't know the breeder of my other old one, but I do know that his trainer loved him a lot, and sold him to me for very little.

    Part of the big news about racing, in my opinion, is that you regularly see horrific breakdowns of young horses, in public. You just don't see this much in H/J----they don't race at speed, and injuries tend to be non-life-threatening tendons, etc, not fractures. Just my two cents.



  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by On the Farm View Post
    I don't know what world you live in, but in mine the vet bills the owner directly. That includes one of the vets mentioned in this article from the Times. I don't mind folks having an opinion, but at least base it on fact.
    I live in the same world that you do, but, the trainers who I worked for, read that, worked for, and I know because I did the books, did not bill the owners directly, nor did they in the veterinarians offices where I worked, those bills went to the trainers sometimes and the owners not as often, the trainers drew up their bills with the vet fees added, did not include a breakdown of what the horses were given. I worked in Maryland at the track and on farms, and I worked in West Virginia, I also worked in Virginia but not in the capacity where I knew what the billing systems looked like.

    Maybe it is different with different languages, nationalities, personality disorder types, but it was what I experienced. Would you like me to give you the specifics of the vets who treated (nerved) horses who were racing by injections? Then waited while the horses' foot rotted off because he did not want to be known that he did this? Anomalies these things are not, maybe the owners don't read or understand their bills if they are newbies, maybe they are naive to believe that the horses are not getting treated or just because "everyone else" does it nowadays it is the old go along to get along. It is not the way it was done when horses raced longer and stayed sounder or with less horrible catastrophic breakdowns when they did breakdown. Morality, a backbone and a culture that give a s!*t and does not live in the land of De Nile would not allow this to occur.
    "We, too, will be remembered not for victories or defeats in battle or in politics, but for our contribution to the human spirit." JFK



  11. #31
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    I guess it depends who you worked for...I've been around the Md tracks for 25 yrs or so. The owners were always billed by the vets in our barn, and other barns I was in. If the owners didn't understand they questioned and were given explanations. We did have an owner who had a horse in "training" in WV, he was billed through the trainer, vet bill was over $2500 a month, horse was actually standing in a field.The owner was a newbie, but schooled very, very fast at his expense.



  12. #32
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    Even if the owners aren't being billed directly by the vet, the bill is still itemized and the owner is still paying for it. It's not part of the day rate. It's not coming from the trainers pocket. Unless the trainer and vet are being seriously shady, the owner knows what the horse is getting. Now, whether or not they know exactly what the medications are for or understand the repercussions of these medications is up for debate. I have a feeling few owners really understand any of it or can be easily talked into believing what their trainer says. But just because they are ignorant doesn't mean they can't be to blame. An owner isn't just going to hand over an extra couple thousand bucks a month without an explanation of WHY now are they? Unless they are REALLY naive.



  13. #33
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    Our vet bills go first to our trainer who reads them and intials each individual item meaning: yes, I approved this and yes, this was done to your horse (not erroneously billed). He then forwards them on to us.

    If we have any questions, comments, or complaints, we call the trainer and discuss. That generally happens 5-6 times a year. Anyone who pays their vet bills without understanding them or what is being done to their horse is an idiot.



  14. #34
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    Really? You see the questions on the trainers test lately? Is more about chemistry than anything about horses or tack.
    By drug, I mean illegally. Out of all the trainers, it is a low percentage who actually use Dermophin and other illegal drugs.
    I recommend everybody get on board with this: http://cleanhorseracing.org/
    They also have a Youtube channel as well, check it out:http://www.youtube.com/user/CleanHorseRacing
    LOL, I do work for this website -- you are preaching to the choir. And a very well educated choir when it comes to TB racing and drug use.
    "If you can't feed 'em, don't breed 'em."



  15. #35
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    I'm not sure if you keep up with what's going on in the industry, but the JC round table this year dealt a lot with drug use. This is from the last slide, which you can find on their website:

    "That means that 98.5% or approximately 12,600 trainers without a drug ruling were, in essence, allowing 1.5% of the population to shape 100% of the public’s perception of the sport."

    This is based on 3,500 drug rulings out of 13,000 rulings in the Thoroughbred Regulatory Rulings website between 2005 and 2011. Out of 12,801 trainers, 1,909 had a drug ruling, and then they break it down to only one violation, etc. Still pretty powerful. I'm sure a lot of these are just minor overages of bute, etc., too.

    There are some bad trainers/owners out there, but they are not the majority and Joe Drape is just trying to stir the pot for his own benefit Really quite pathetic for a journalist -- and I use the term lightly.
    "If you can't feed 'em, don't breed 'em."



  16. #36
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    Even some of the trainers with violations are not necessarily moustache twirling villains. Richard Mandella is technically on the list of violators because he has had a couple of Methocarbanol overages as has his son Gary Mandella.



  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bacchus View Post

    There are some bad trainers/owners out there, but they are not the majority and Joe Drape is just trying to stir the pot for his own benefit Really quite pathetic for a journalist -- and I use the term lightly.
    Which just happened to coincide with slots money in NY and all of those casino earnings that government types are coveting.



  18. #38
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    MY HUSBAND HAS BEEN A VET. ON THE TRACKS FOR OVER 50 YEARS.
    HE HAS SEEN IT ALL. ONE THING HE ALWAYS SAYS IS.
    THERE IS NOTHING I CAN GIVE A HORSE THAT WILL MAKE IT RUN ANY FASTER THAN IT POSSIBLY CAN. PERIOD.



  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bacchus View Post
    I'm not sure if you keep up with what's going on in the industry, but the JC round table this year dealt a lot with drug use. This is from the last slide, which you can find on their website:

    "That means that 98.5% or approximately 12,600 trainers without a drug ruling were, in essence, allowing 1.5% of the population to shape 100% of the public’s perception of the sport."

    This is based on 3,500 drug rulings out of 13,000 rulings in the Thoroughbred Regulatory Rulings website between 2005 and 2011. Out of 12,801 trainers, 1,909 had a drug ruling, and then they break it down to only one violation, etc. Still pretty powerful. I'm sure a lot of these are just minor overages of bute, etc., too.

    There are some bad trainers/owners out there, but they are not the majority and Joe Drape is just trying to stir the pot for his own benefit Really quite pathetic for a journalist -- and I use the term lightly.
    The Jockey Club can have round tables til it's ears bleed, but they have absolutely no control or jurisdiction over what goes on in the racing industry itself as far as drugs and medication violations go.

    It's also important to keep in mind that just because a trainer doesn't have a medication violation, does not mean they aren't using drugs, both legal, illegal and in immoral situations. Most violations only occur when somebody makes a mistake, especially occuring at larger stables where there are many horses to keep track of and several people running the operation. Accidentally giving a horse a medication to close to a raceday (especially when you sometimes don't know if your horse will get in until a few days before) occurs.

    Also keep in mind that only a couple of horses from each race are actually tested after a race. Would we see a huge spike in numbers if each horse from a race was tested? Of course we would.

    I would really like to know where they get their information from on this. I have looked at the online register of drug offenses and it is incredibly incomplete so I'm hoping those aren't the actual stats they are going by.

    Drugs like bute, banamine and clenbuterol are staples in many racing barns and are giving as part of the program. It is totally legal to do so.



  20. #40
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    I just saw something--repeat of a Quebecois slaughter house press release--that said THAT Canadian slaughterhouse would no longer accept Thoroughbreds. The EU's horse meat regulations on drugs in a horse's history seem to be what is causing that--given racing's reliance on drugs of all kinds--as well as the anti-slaughter people who often focus on TBs.

    So what is the industry in the East going to do with the broken down racers if they can't send them off to Canada? Ship them to Mexico?
    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
    Thread killer Extraordinaire



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