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  1. #41
    Join Date
    Oct. 6, 2002
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    Philadelphia PA
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    18,009

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    Quote Originally Posted by alto View Post
    Any training rides? if not - you might consider having your instructor ride part of each lesson, or have him ridden twice a week for a month ...

    Yes. He did a week of "boot camp" and in between has gotten pro rides about every other week. And now he's getting a second week of boot camp.

    I can't really afford to lesson 2x a week and have pro rides 2x/week I just can't.
    ~Veronica
    "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
    http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/



  2. #42
    Join Date
    Jul. 31, 2007
    Posts
    16,819

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    Hey OP, I have a whole library of interesting 5.5" snaffles. You are welcome to peruse and borrow/buy if you like.

    Curling up aside, are your hands still?

    I'm asking because I like to get to General Rules from the series of bits you describe and how Horseling goes in them.

    So he can't take the Big Leverage of an elevator with one rein on the bottom ring. Meh, not surprised.

    If you put the rein on a ring higher up, are you still happy with the brakes? Does the horse uncurl?

    See, all this tells you that some kind of leverage will cure what ails you without digging a deeper training hole for you. So full-cheek whatever, Myler bit or similar, eh?

    How about on the stability front? (This is why I asked about your hands). Does Horseling get better in a loose ring?

    And thick vs. thin mouth pieces. Do you get too prompt a response if you get serious about pulling when you guys are using a very thin bit?

    These are basic question. *Then* you can try out different shaped mouth-pieces. IME, slow twist? Angle of the middle piece in a Dr. Bristol? All these things tend to be individual to the horse.

    Oh, and last but not least, does Kineton noseband make sense for you? Does the horse just pull down forever, no matter what?
    The armchair saddler
    Politically Pro-Cat



  3. #43
    Join Date
    Jan. 9, 2003
    Posts
    1,585

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    Riders who pitch forward when there is a problem have a tendency to attempt to regain their balance with their hands. Putting a stronger bit on the horse is often not fair to the horse, and only serves to piss off the horse even more, which makes it even more difficult for the rider to solve her problems. I'm not saying this applies to the OP, but it could be something to think about.

    Instead of switching to a stronger bit, could you use the one he likes when you hack and do pole work in place of your jumping lessons? As in, put poles in place of all the jumps in your ring, and ride the course with only poles on the ground? I find that pole work is often more difficult than jumping courses, and I also find that it is easier for me as a rider to recognize and feel what I'M doing wrong over fences when I don't have the actual fences in front of me.



  4. #44
    Join Date
    Sep. 4, 2012
    Location
    Del Mar, CA
    Posts
    57

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    Quote Originally Posted by vxf111 View Post
    Yes. He did a week of "boot camp" and in between has gotten pro rides about every other week. And now he's getting a second week of boot camp.

    I can't really afford to lesson 2x a week and have pro rides 2x/week I just can't.

    You do what you can in the end you'll learn so much either way, pro rides or not. I'm anxious to hear what bit you chose and how it works for you! Keep us posted.



  5. #45
    Join Date
    Aug. 3, 2010
    Location
    for now, Southern Pines, NC
    Posts
    745

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    A lot of good suggestions here. I have a Very Large Horse and I'm ridiculously small for him. While he tends to be lazy, he did have a tendency to get strong and pull down, and I just didn't have the depth of leg or strenth to re-package him. Similar to the OP's post, I found the bits that gave me the soft flat ride correctly, didn't offer enough in the brake department when jumping. My giant guy couldn't care less about a 3-ring happy mouth, rein on the highest ring, and I didn't want to risk riding on teh bottom ring and accidently getting him in the mouth. A pelham was *great* for a while, but he started to be a bit scared of it, and very stiff and defensive in his neck. I show him in a slow twist D but wanted something "more" for the schooling rides. What WORKS for us? A regular soft schooling snaffle (My guys prefers the Sprenger KK, but whatever) with a gag rein. There have been posts on those here, where you cheat by using a set of draw reins, run up over the poll, through the bit and held as a second set of reins (like a pelham). I ride off the main snaffle ring 95% of the time and the gag rein kind of flops, but when Big Boy gets on his forehand and rolling along, I have that extra tool to lift him up and get us both re-balanced. The beauty is that it's his regular bit, so he doesn't automatically return to being a lug when I go back to a soft bit. It *is* his soft bit. I can ride with it using the gag rein or not, or take the draw reins contraption off altogether. Worth a try, and since the bit's mouthpiece is your normal soft schooling one, it's not like you're ripping his mouth to shreds if you get a tad left in the air.....anyway, now that the moose understands what it means when I half halt, I hardly ever use that tool anymore, but it really helped me get him more broke on a jump course, and a lot cheaper and easier than buying 15 more bits that *might* work. Good Luck!
    A good man can make you feel sexy, strong, and able to take on the world.... oh, sorry.... that's wine...wine does that...



  6. #46
    Join Date
    Oct. 6, 2002
    Location
    Philadelphia PA
    Posts
    18,009

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    The only nice thing that was ever said to me in my nightmare of IHSA riding by my coach is that I have very soft and good hands. I think I'm generally pretty quiet, but I do have a tendancy when he gets to pulling to JUST go to the hands rather than use hand and leg.

    Once I did ride in the elevator only on the snaffle bubble and he just plain old blew that off.

    Things I have tried before...

    When he was 3 and not really jumping..

    -Fat rubber D
    -3 piece plain metal D with the bean center
    -Loose ring (for dressage)

    All three were roughly the same. He liked 'em okay but wasn't all that responsive. His favorite evasion ON EARTH is the get counter bent and/or bend one way in front and another behind and with all 3 of these bits he would just bear against the hand and be counterbent when he felt like it. The counter bending thing got MUCH better with age/training but it's always still his "go to" evasion. "I don't like this? I guess I'll crook my neck around and pick up the wrong lead-- so there. Or maybe I'll gallop around on the forehand cuz that's my hobby."

    Then I tried the Pessoa Magic D. He actually went really well in this. But I didn't feel like it gave me much in the way of breaks, and I was jumping and needing them by this point. For dressage he went in a single jointed thin mouth gold eggbutt and I LOVE how SOFT his mouth felt in that. LOVED him in it for the flat. Over fences... no breaks. My old trainer either jumped him in the Pessoa or a pelham. I can't remember why I personally never tried the pelham, but I didn't.

    I then moved barns and tried the Stubben EZ Control D. Which was useless. Boy oh BOY could he get away with ANYTHING in that bit. He could just run through any amount of aids. Which led to new trainer thinking maybe try the elevator, which was excellent in the beginning but now he seems to be OVER it. So I got the full cheek happy mouth with the same mouth piece to alternate with the elevator. He's pretty happy in the happy mouth (haha) but I don't feel like it gives me QUITE enough brakes.

    Today I put him in the full cheek happy mouth and did an hour of lateral work and transitions (hello DRESSAGE again, how I missed you... not). He was responsive, great breaks, and frankly was as good as he's ever been. He was flatting machine. I have breaks FINE on the flat. But he's not so "against the hand" on the flat as he can be over fences (I saw that written on some dressage tests back in the day ) My hands just aren't good enough for the elevator. Period. Not with the single rein anyway. I just need a little more BREAKS without leverage, I think, over fences.

    I am going to first try the Dr. Bristol, because it's pretty mild, 3 piece, and it's just *different* and maybe that difference will work. If so, I may also try the one with the twist that a couple people recommended. I am going to hold off on the really expensive Mylar and absurd-expensive titanium bits for now. I have a lot of the other suggested bits in my "bit box," so if the Dr. Bristols don't work... then I'll play.

    No experience with Kineton nosebands.

    This horse can canter courses of groundpoles all day long like a lamb, with his eyes closed, and would rather step on them then get amped. It's ONLY O/F that I have the building and stopping problem.
    ~Veronica
    "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
    http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/



  7. #47
    Join Date
    Oct. 6, 2002
    Location
    Philadelphia PA
    Posts
    18,009

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    Quote Originally Posted by ElementFarm View Post
    A lot of good suggestions here. I have a Very Large Horse and I'm ridiculously small for him. While he tends to be lazy, he did have a tendency to get strong and pull down, and I just didn't have the depth of leg or strenth to re-package him. Similar to the OP's post, I found the bits that gave me the soft flat ride correctly, didn't offer enough in the brake department when jumping. My giant guy couldn't care less about a 3-ring happy mouth, rein on the highest ring, and I didn't want to risk riding on teh bottom ring and accidently getting him in the mouth. A pelham was *great* for a while, but he started to be a bit scared of it, and very stiff and defensive in his neck. I show him in a slow twist D but wanted something "more" for the schooling rides. What WORKS for us? A regular soft schooling snaffle (My guys prefers the Sprenger KK, but whatever) with a gag rein. There have been posts on those here, where you cheat by using a set of draw reins, run up over the poll, through the bit and held as a second set of reins (like a pelham). I ride off the main snaffle ring 95% of the time and the gag rein kind of flops, but when Big Boy gets on his forehand and rolling along, I have that extra tool to lift him up and get us both re-balanced. The beauty is that it's his regular bit, so he doesn't automatically return to being a lug when I go back to a soft bit. It *is* his soft bit. I can ride with it using the gag rein or not, or take the draw reins contraption off altogether. Worth a try, and since the bit's mouthpiece is your normal soft schooling one, it's not like you're ripping his mouth to shreds if you get a tad left in the air.....anyway, now that the moose understands what it means when I half halt, I hardly ever use that tool anymore, but it really helped me get him more broke on a jump course, and a lot cheaper and easier than buying 15 more bits that *might* work. Good Luck!
    I started a thread about this very tool a couple of weeks ago. Bartville is making me a set, I just don't have it yet.
    ~Veronica
    "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
    http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/



  8. #48
    Join Date
    Jan. 27, 2003
    Location
    CA
    Posts
    11,126

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    Glad you have some ideas to try.

    Question for you...do you tend to ride with your stirrups long or short (or I suppose, just right)? I find that the longer my stirrups are, the more I can be tipped forward and lose any ability to sit back (or up). Horse gets away with whatever he wants because I simply can't do anything about it.
    Keith: "Now...let's do something normal fathers and daughters do."
    Veronica: "Buy me a pony?"



  9. #49
    Join Date
    Oct. 6, 2002
    Location
    Philadelphia PA
    Posts
    18,009

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    Quote Originally Posted by RugBug View Post
    Glad you have some ideas to try.

    Question for you...do you tend to ride with your stirrups long or short (or I suppose, just right)? I find that the longer my stirrups are, the more I can be tipped forward and lose any ability to sit back (or up). Horse gets away with whatever he wants because I simply can't do anything about it.
    Hmm... new trainer put me up 2 holes. So I'm going to say, at least now, on the good-to-short side. I also invested in those Bow Balance stirrups (for one of the 2 saddles) and that helps a TON but I am still getting used to them a bit.
    ~Veronica
    "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
    http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/



  10. #50
    Join Date
    May. 5, 2011
    Posts
    1,832

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    Pelham sounds like it would fit the bill. Snaffle rein for the majority of the time with the curb rein for an emergency break of sorts.



  11. #51
    Join Date
    Jul. 22, 2012
    Location
    CA
    Posts
    884

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    Quote Originally Posted by RugBug View Post

    I would try the Dr. Bristol with the slow twist
    I'm curious - how severe is this bit? In proper hands, obviously.

    I wish I could help, OP! I have to say, the best thing I've had for controlling a wild jumper is a Myler combo bit. Enough "hey, I'm here!!" for when I needed it, and an immediate release when he gave. I'm not sure if that would serve your purposes, though.



  12. #52
    Join Date
    Mar. 29, 2004
    Location
    Stevensville, MD, USA
    Posts
    361

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    What does he do if you just get up in two point, stay out of his way and get in a good canter rhythm to get to the jump? My guy stopped rushing once I stopped micromanaging him to the jump. That being said, he will run through my aids sometimes after jumps on the diagonal because we don't have a lead change and he feels unbalanced. I am using a dr. Bristol which has helped prevent him locking that jaw and running through me so I can do the simple change.



  13. #53
    Join Date
    Oct. 6, 2002
    Location
    Philadelphia PA
    Posts
    18,009

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    Quote Originally Posted by serendipityhunter View Post
    What does he do if you just get up in two point, stay out of his way and get in a good canter rhythm to get to the jump?
    My guy stopped rushing once I stopped micromanaging him to the jump. That being said, he will run through my aids sometimes after jumps on the diagonal because we don't have a lead change and he feels unbalanced. I am using a dr. Bristol which has helped prevent him locking that jaw and running through me so I can do the simple change.
    Take whatever distance he wants. Sometimes good, and sometimes bad. Often long. And woo hah on the downside if he takes a long spot in. I actually don't think I'm must of a distance micromanager. Not that I don't do plenty wrong, but I don't pick on this horse. I generally pick up the canter and just sort of try to ride out of it. I'm a snatcher on the DOWNSIDE sometimes, because he's teaching me to do that by taking over and getting strong after landing. FWIW we have the change, he's pretty auto.
    ~Veronica
    "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
    http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/



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