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  1. #341
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    Jan. 8, 2006
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    The count of hay bales on CCH's property makes me wonder a bit..

    Am I the only one who has a hay farmer who stores my hay all year round?

    I generally only have enough hay on site for 2 weeks, as I go for a load of hay every second saturday, even through winter.

    I can just imagine how weird that might look to someone looking at my hay supply for some reason.
    Quote Originally Posted by ExJumper View Post
    Sometimes I'm thrown off, sometimes I'm bucked off, sometimes I simply fall off, and sometimes I go down with the ship. All of these are valid ways to part company with your horse.



  2. #342
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    Oct. 26, 2010
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    Orygun
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    Quote Originally Posted by meupatdoes View Post
    Personally, I disagree with this.
    If you have the proper set up (tractor, fields with adequate shelter, access to sufficient hay and water, etc) you can drive from field to field and take care of that many and more without too much hassle.

    My 65 year old land lady that I rented a room from in Texas had a herd of like ...24? paso finos and it took her a grand total of 15 minutes, twice a day, to feed them.
    1. put hose in water trough and turn on
    2. call horses
    3. all come in and run in their stalls
    4. go down aisle dispensing scoops of grain from the grain trolley
    5. refill grain trolley for next feeding
    6. turn off hose
    7. dispense hay piles in pasture if winter (adds 10 minutes to winter evening feedings)
    8. let them back out

    They were in their stalls for maybe 30 minutes a day and stalls got mucked once or twice a week, which took maybe half an hour.

    The biggest issue was when they would be idiots and "forget" where their stalls were despite the fact they had been doing this for the past decade.

    Another family I know in PA had a bazillion connemara cross ponies that all lived in big fields, they would drive the grain tractor and dispense feed/check the autowaterers twice a day for half an hour. Someone would drop off round bales in the winter which was no extra work for them.

    There seems to be a knee jerk reaction that double digits in horses automatically = bare bones care and overwhelmed single women who should have known better but that is not necessarily the case in a well managed program.
    I see where you're coming from but these are horses who've had minimal handling (or handeling [not George Fridric either] from the webiste) and have a few owies which need medicating. I was thinking feeding would prolly be the least of the time used. This is an awful lot for one person unless they have help somehow.
    GR24's Musing #19 - Save the tatas!!



  3. #343
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    Oct. 26, 2010
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    Orygun
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    Quote Originally Posted by rainechyldes View Post
    The count of hay bales on CCH's property makes me wonder a bit..

    Am I the only one who has a hay farmer who stores my hay all year round?

    I generally only have enough hay on site for 2 weeks, as I go for a load of hay every second saturday, even through winter.

    I can just imagine how weird that might look to someone looking at my hay supply for some reason.
    I sort of do this. I can buy hay all winter long and since there are less horses and dairies now, the price has come down a smidge. So, my barn will hold 30 bales, I use that and then when needed, trot down and buy some more. Next year might be different because of the excess this year. The hayers may not plant as much or do as many cuttings. For the time being, this is the way it is.
    GR24's Musing #19 - Save the tatas!!



  4. #344
    Join Date
    Feb. 6, 2003
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    NorthEast
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    24,498

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    I also buy my hay as needed. My hay guy is 10 minutes from my house and can store massive amounts of hay. He knows exactly how many his clients need to get through the winter, most of his clients pick up 1-2 times monthly. I do the same...I pick up 10-20 at a time and always keep at least 10 days of hay in my barn.

    But...I only have 2 horses. So 10-20 bales is 10-20 days of hay. If I had 10, 20 or 30 horses then I'd have more storage for more hay. No way would I want to go pick up hay every other day, only getting 10-20 at a time with that many horses.

    Of course it all depends on what kind of bales she had. Was it 16 small squares, big squares or a small or large round bale? Huge difference. Small squares is one day of hay. (if there isn't any grazing) Large 100# squares is 2 days of hay. Round bales...then 16 shouldn't be questionable I wouldn't think.
    You jump in the saddle,
    Hold onto the bridle!
    Jump in the line!
    ...Belefonte



  5. #345
    Join Date
    Oct. 26, 2007
    Location
    San Jose, Ca
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    5,116

    Default Lots of horses eat lots of hay - and there isn't "pasture" in these parts

    34 horses - no pasture or any other source of forage (horses are on sand - leading to sand colic).

    If each horse was fed 15 pounds a day (I personally would feed much more, but assuming these are little horses and easy keepers), that would be 510 pounds of hay every day.

    Or approximately 5 big 100 pound bales every day
    Or 10 small 50 pound bales every day

    Or weekly - 35 big bales a week
    Or 70 small bales a week

    That is A LOT of hay - because we are talking about A LOT of horses!

    I pay $15 for a 110lb bale if I drive 50 miles to the "cheap place" (otherwise it is $20 a bale). It would cost me $525 A WEEK to feed this herd.

    Not sure if hay is cheaper way out in Fallon - ours comes from the central valley (closer to the source than Fallon).



  6. #346
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    Jun. 19, 2011
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    2,940

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    Quote Originally Posted by Appsolute View Post
    34 horses - no pasture or any other source of forage (horses are on sand - leading to sand colic).

    If each horse was fed 15 pounds a day (I personally would feed much more, but assuming these are little horses and easy keepers), that would be 510 pounds of hay every day.

    Or approximately 5 big 100 pound bales every day
    Or 10 small 50 pound bales every day

    Or weekly - 35 big bales a week
    Or 70 small bales a week

    That is A LOT of hay - because we are talking about A LOT of horses!

    I pay $15 for a 110lb bale if I drive 50 miles to the "cheap place" (otherwise it is $20 a bale). It would cost me $525 A WEEK to feed this herd.

    Not sure if hay is cheaper way out in Fallon - ours comes from the central valley (closer to the source than Fallon).
    \

    By graining her horses she will cut down on the amount of hay.



  7. #347
    Join Date
    Jun. 20, 2010
    Location
    Madisonville, TX
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    A hay supplier on another forum commented on something I said:


    Epona142:
    Perhaps this rescue is already biting off more than it can chew...

    I believe this rescue is only a few months old. How long until we get to see their desperate begging for donations. IF it hasn't begun already. I try to avoid their FB "wall" as it's a lot of people screaming about hoarders and what not.
    Small Time Hay:
    They already have, we've been approched by this rescue to donate hay and additional posts. This is the same rescue I posted about in the debate board Rescue's topic.
    ~ The Goat Whisperer
    Website



  8. #348
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    Feb. 28, 2006
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    The rocky part of KY
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    Fairfax: Grain costs money too. Wasn't lack of ready cash part of the problem?

    Or is it more usual to be able to pay for grain with a credit card at the feed store and hay is bought through a different pipeline?
    We buy some of our grain and bagged forage products at the TSC and can use a cc, or at Southern States, they sell different brands and sell hay and straw, which does cc and carries accounts. Our feed mill carries its own accounts only and we can get concentrates and hay there, but the hay guy is a cash only seller and the price is far lower than at any of the credit places. It's 33% lower easily, but we have to come up with a couple hundred dollars up front and fill our loft, he doesn't store hay off site.

    ETA Just did some calculating. Bagged forage products are a reasonable substitute for some hay, although the gut needs that one inch or longer fiber to get the scratch factor and remain healthier. At about 15 dollars for 40 lbs of alfalfa cubes she could rack up a cc bill but keep them fed. Our mill sells a 10% molassed feed for about $9 a fiftyweight, not the best quality feed though. At 5 lbs a head per day (w roughly 20 head) she'd still be running through $20 bucks a day in concentrates and needing a forage product to keep her horses from colicking if nothing else. Being in NV where the range will only support a fraction of an animal unit per acre she is just SOL. She has to pay out, and pay out a lot.
    Courageous Weenie Eventer Wannabe
    Incredible Invisible



  9. #349
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    Nov. 2, 2001
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReSomething View Post
    Fairfax: Grain costs money too. Wasn't lack of ready cash part of the problem?

    Or is it more usual to be able to pay for grain with a credit card at the feed store and hay is bought through a different pipeline?
    We buy some of our grain and bagged forage products at the TSC and can use a cc, or at Southern States, they sell different brands and sell hay and straw, which does cc and carries accounts. Our feed mill carries its own accounts only and we can get concentrates and hay there, but the hay guy is a cash only seller and the price is far lower than at any of the credit places. It's 33% lower easily, but we have to come up with a couple hundred dollars up front and fill our loft, he doesn't store hay off site.

    ETA Just did some calculating. Bagged forage products are a reasonable substitute for some hay, although the gut needs that one inch or longer fiber to get the scratch factor and remain healthier. At about 15 dollars for 40 lbs of alfalfa cubes she could rack up a cc bill but keep them fed. Our mill sells a 10% molassed feed for about $9 a fiftyweight, not the best quality feed though. At 5 lbs a head per day (w roughly 20 head) she'd still be running through $20 bucks a day in concentrates and needing a forage product to keep her horses from colicking if nothing else. Being in NV where the range will only support a fraction of an animal unit per acre she is just SOL. She has to pay out, and pay out a lot.

    well, we have been seeing the threads about BM/BOs cutting the rising hay prices by increasing cheap grain feeds.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mozart View Post
    Personally, I think the moderate use of shock collars in training humans should be allowed.



  10. #350
    Join Date
    Oct. 26, 2007
    Location
    San Jose, Ca
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    Was there talk about a bunch of bagged grain on site?

    5 pound a day × 34 horses is 175 pounds (or 3 1/2 50 lb sacs) of grain per day (and at $9 a bag for crud, I am not sure how $30 a day in supplemental feed would save much $)

    Plus you can't feed this stuff on the ground, all that sand causes colic. And you HAVE to feed large amounts of hay in sandy areas to move that sand.. Because they will colic, especially if they are hungry and chasing every last scrap rooting down in the sand.

    But it sounds like she has already had a number of colics, and horses in poor health due to her feeding practices.

    I have kept horses in sandy areas, it takes careful management.



  11. #351
    Join Date
    Oct. 14, 2010
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    2,425

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    Quote Originally Posted by meupatdoes View Post
    Personally, I disagree with this.
    If you have the proper set up (tractor, fields with adequate shelter, access to sufficient hay and water, etc) you can drive from field to field and take care of that many and more without too much hassle.

    My 65 year old land lady that I rented a room from in Texas had a herd of like ...24? paso finos and it took her a grand total of 15 minutes, twice a day, to feed them.
    1. put hose in water trough and turn on
    2. call horses
    3. all come in and run in their stalls
    4. go down aisle dispensing scoops of grain from the grain trolley
    5. refill grain trolley for next feeding
    6. turn off hose
    7. dispense hay piles in pasture if winter (adds 10 minutes to winter evening feedings)
    8. let them back out

    They were in their stalls for maybe 30 minutes a day and stalls got mucked once or twice a week, which took maybe half an hour.

    The biggest issue was when they would be idiots and "forget" where their stalls were despite the fact they had been doing this for the past decade.

    Another family I know in PA had a bazillion connemara cross ponies that all lived in big fields, they would drive the grain tractor and dispense feed/check the autowaterers twice a day for half an hour. Someone would drop off round bales in the winter which was no extra work for them.

    There seems to be a knee jerk reaction that double digits in horses automatically = bare bones care and overwhelmed single women who should have known better but that is not necessarily the case in a well managed program.
    I have to agree with this. One of my BOs is 75 and doesn't have a tractor. He manages an average of about 20 head over the year. Stalls don't get done often, but they don't spend much time in them. He has troughs instead of buckets, and it really doesn't matter who ends up in what stall when they come into be fed.

    My trainer is 65 and has 34 head and is adjusting to handling it by himself. He has someone help feed & muck, but he also has about 14 in training. His is one of the most efficient set ups I've ever seen.

    When I was a kid, I helped in a barn where we could hay/grain/water 15 head in around 30 mins (2X a day). In general, I don't get the impression that COTHers are the most efficient barnkeepers.



  12. #352
    Join Date
    Oct. 13, 2010
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    120

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fairfax View Post
    HSUS and DEFHR and Queens County LOST a major case in Maryland. The lawsuits will be filed in 2013 and TORT has already been filed.

    It was a classic case of falsifying information, lying under oath, and doing it for training and donations.

    The judge saw evidence to all of the above and basically tossed out abuse and neglect charges. Number of horses impaced 133


    This case was watched by lawyers across the U.S.A. and they now have a precedent to challenge.

    Legal fees were around one half million...This was a very strong woman who stood up to them And was finally able to sell some property that the county had put a restriction on..hoping to force her into a position of bankruptcy.

    Sherrifs overstep their authority because no one challenges them. Rescues and AC MANY TIMES (not always) are involved for the money
    Sadly, this is becoming a trend, money is the bottom line and unless the horse owners have the money to fight, they just roll over and give up. I know of a few cases in the Northeast and one in the midwest (cannot remember where) that the "volunteers" and "rescues" involved have been quoted as saying that pictures were falsified, facts changed and the donations that rolled in was all that really mattered. At least 2 owners are still fighting but honestly who here has hundreds of thousands of dollars to fight?

    I, like many others here, have enough hay on hand for 2 weeks and my hay supplier delivers to me twice a month, but if AC was to come in on day 13, would I be in danger of having my animals seized for not having enough feed on hand? I purchase my grain in bulk, every 6 weeks, can you imagine if the grain and hay were in low supply the same week ? It only takes one unscrupulous person to throw your reputation into the crapper and once that happens no amount of fighting will ever get it back no matter what the legal outcome maybe which is very scary.

    Sorry to take this off track but it just got me thinking this morning.

    As for the pictures, there is just NO excuse for any horse to ever have a foot that looks like that. By a rasp and nippers and get to work, hard to handle? buy tranq



  13. #353
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    May. 5, 2009
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    Location: Indiana, but my heart is in Zone II
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    Quote Originally Posted by anon123456 View Post
    I, like many others here, have enough hay on hand for 2 weeks and my hay supplier delivers to me twice a month, but if AC was to come in on day 13, would I be in danger of having my animals seized for not having enough feed on hand? I purchase my grain in bulk, every 6 weeks, can you imagine if the grain and hay were in low supply the same week ? Sorry to take this off track but it just got me thinking this morning.

    As for the pictures, there is just NO excuse for any horse to ever have a foot that looks like that. By a rasp and nippers and get to work, hard to handle? buy tranq
    You would not be in danger b/c presumably, your horses are in decent condition and have been properly maintained/cared for. (I did assist AC/SPCA not too long ago). Most AC officers do not take seizing horses lightly. Most would rather have the owners rectify the situation. Of course, their are unscrupulous people in all positions, including people who own animals and fail to care for them.
    Come to the dark side, we have cookies



  14. #354
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    Jan. 4, 2007
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    TX
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    40,669

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pennywell Bay View Post
    You would not be in danger b/c presumably, your horses are in decent condition and have been properly maintained/cared for. (I did assist AC/SPCA not too long ago). Most AC officers do not take seizing horses lightly. Most would rather have the owners rectify the situation. Of course, their are unscrupulous people in all positions, including people who own animals and fail to care for them.
    Right, no one is talking about normal, sensible, good caretakers and managers and officers, that do what needs to be done and some times make mistakes.

    We are talking about caretakers that fail to take care, officers of any kind that are bullies and lie.
    Thankfully, I at least hope so, there are not many of either of those, too bad that there are any of them.

    Now, when it comes to what those animal rights extremists groups do and foment, trying to get their agenda to move forward, the animals a mere prop, then I am not sure it is isolated incidents of doing something wrong, but more the norm, with all that I have seen them be involved, time and again, over many years.



  15. #355
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    Nov. 2, 2001
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pennywell Bay View Post
    You would not be in danger b/c presumably, your horses are in decent condition and have been properly maintained/cared for. (I did assist AC/SPCA not too long ago). Most AC officers do not take seizing horses lightly. Most would rather have the owners rectify the situation. Of course, their are unscrupulous people in all positions, including people who own animals and fail to care for them.
    Well, I would love to agree with you.
    But even among educated horse people we cannot agree on a standard of care.
    What I deem in fine weight, somebody else would consider thin. And here we start having a problem.
    Next, what is considered decent horse keeping.
    I do consider it perfectly fine when under certain circumstances a horse does not have a full water bucket in front of him 24/7. Others consider it grounds to move barns. And so on and so forth.

    Now, If a person who considers a horse below a 6 on the infamous scale, only meant for QH broodmares to be thin and the bucket that is waiting to be refilled for the scheduled watering a serious faux pas in animal husbandry has a badge and an agenda...I would be up the creek without a paddle.

    I hope most AC officers are decent people.
    But sadly a growing number has no longer any idea about anything larger than a Great Dane and the influence of the AR people is also ever more increasing.

    You might not like what Bluey and Fairfax have to say, but one should heed their warnings and keep an eye out on who gets the nod in terms of enforcement powers.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mozart View Post
    Personally, I think the moderate use of shock collars in training humans should be allowed.



  16. #356
    Join Date
    Aug. 29, 2010
    Location
    Vancouver Island, BC
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alagirl View Post
    Well, I would love to agree with you.
    But even among educated horse people we cannot agree on a standard of care.
    What I deem in fine weight, somebody else would consider thin. And here we start having a problem.
    Next, what is considered decent horse keeping.
    I do consider it perfectly fine when under certain circumstances a horse does not have a full water bucket in front of him 24/7. Others consider it grounds to move barns. And so on and so forth.

    Now, If a person who considers a horse below a 6 on the infamous scale, only meant for QH broodmares to be thin and the bucket that is waiting to be refilled for the scheduled watering a serious faux pas in animal husbandry has a badge and an agenda...I would be up the creek without a paddle.

    I hope most AC officers are decent people.
    But sadly a growing number has no longer any idea about anything larger than a Great Dane and the influence of the AR people is also ever more increasing.

    You might not like what Bluey and Fairfax have to say, but one should heed their warnings and keep an eye out on who gets the nod in terms of enforcement powers.
    you may not have a problem, but it is law in most places to have fresh water in front of any animal at all times, and the most basic and necessary element of care. unless you are nitpicking about semantics. i've NEVER heard of a herd of horses seized as they didn't have a bucket of water while being groomed.

    i agree that standards differ, i've also never heard of a group or single horse seized that was in perfect condition, according to ANY standards. i stand by that my horses, in their current state will never be taken from me, no matter how many complaints/conspiracies are afoot. if i became unable to care for them, and couldn't find them care elsewhere, i'd put them down prior to starving or causing them to suffer.

    i do accept that there are some ulterior motives in some cases, and some horses seized when perhaps wasn't warranted, HOWEVER, i am tired of hearing that repeated ad nauseum to excuse poor care. if good horsemanship, and care for our animals isn't a good enough reason, fear of being "taken advantage of and bullied" wouldn't be a bad thing if it meant everyone made sure they were looked after.

    i do feel for CCH, and can imagine it was hard being in over her head. but i do not understand how any person can let feet get like that, or justify not spending the money to put a suffering horse down whilst still keeping 33 others, whose weekly feed bill would likely be the cost of euthanasia and disposal.



  17. #357
    Join Date
    Jul. 19, 2007
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    Michigan
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    There's no horse in perfect condition ANYWHERE. So if that's your standard all of ours should be seized.

    Personally, I don't like using "good horsemanship" as a standard because...what does that mean? I consider what some people on here view as basic care to be ridiculously over-the-top and needlessly expensive. OTOH, my next-door neighbors would probably think MY care is a bit overboard (stalled every night, a pro farrier instead of trimming myself, leather instead of nylon halters, etc.) I'm sure they would horrify some people on here. Are the horses suffering? Not by MY standards, even if they're not as pampered as I might do for mine.

    or justify not spending the money to put a suffering horse down whilst still keeping 33 others, whose weekly feed bill would likely be the cost of euthanasia and disposal.
    So stop feeding the others to save enough to euthanize one? I don't think that's what you MEANT, it's what you implied.

    And again--giving them away doesn't pay for the disposal, and there are no buyers. Then what? (Assuming the KB didn't want them.)



  18. #358
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    Nov. 14, 2011
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    racetrack
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    I was sympathetic until this person tried to brush over the "yearlings that just needed their feet done".

    If you have so many that you can't afford to have EVERY horse on a regular 6-8 week farrier schedule, you have a serious problem. Period. That's it, it should never escalate from there.

    "Pat the horse; kick yourself" - Carl Hester



  19. #359
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    Quote Originally Posted by Regala View Post
    you may not have a problem, but it is law in most places to have fresh water in front of any animal at all times, and the most basic and necessary element of care. unless you are nitpicking about semantics. i've NEVER heard of a herd of horses seized as they didn't have a bucket of water while being groomed.

    i agree that standards differ, i've also never heard of a group or single horse seized that was in perfect condition, according to ANY standards. i stand by that my horses, in their current state will never be taken from me, no matter how many complaints/conspiracies are afoot. if i became unable to care for them, and couldn't find them care elsewhere, i'd put them down prior to starving or causing them to suffer.

    i do accept that there are some ulterior motives in some cases, and some horses seized when perhaps wasn't warranted, HOWEVER, i am tired of hearing that repeated ad nauseum to excuse poor care. if good horsemanship, and care for our animals isn't a good enough reason, fear of being "taken advantage of and bullied" wouldn't be a bad thing if it meant everyone made sure they were looked after.

    i do feel for CCH, and can imagine it was hard being in over her head. but i do not understand how any person can let feet get like that, or justify not spending the money to put a suffering horse down whilst still keeping 33 others, whose weekly feed bill would likely be the cost of euthanasia and disposal.
    Ah, sorry, but precedence proofs you wrong.

    Not too long ago a lady got her horses seized. Initially because of the empty water buckets. Yes there is more to it, but I dare not reopen that can of worms. The horses were in just fine condition, as AC had to admit per their own vet tests. The woman still did not get her animals back.

    oops. Shoots your theory in the wind.

    many, if not most places do not have any minimal care standards.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mozart View Post
    Personally, I think the moderate use of shock collars in training humans should be allowed.



  20. #360
    Join Date
    Aug. 29, 2010
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    Vancouver Island, BC
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    no, my point was, that had she given them away, she'd have the money in one week to pay for the vet. if she'd given half away, would have it in 2 weeks. her feed bill was pretty large.

    none of us will ever agree on what is "perfect condition", but if your horses are not grossly underweight, have regular vet/farrier care (no horrific slippper feet), have water and shelter, and you can prove you provide adequate feed and veterinary care, i don't believe your horses will be taken away. if you neglect just one area, you may have a problem. if you have neglected one aspect of horse care, you put yourself at risk.

    and no alagirl, you exactly proved my point. pintopiaffe's horses were in ok condition by most of our standards, but she broke the law. MINIMUM standard of care, by LAW, states horses need water 24/7. i think you'd be one of a very few who thinks they don't.

    if you really think they would have been seized had nothing else been "going on", i just disagree. in my experience, it is RARELY just one little thing. feet, feed, vet care, water, safe fencing... most herd seizures have multiple issues.



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