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  1. #241
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post
    Not wanting to disagree with you, but are you not being a bit too aggressive there, when I would assume you don't really know what you are saying is so, at all?
    Does anyone know enough to stand there and point fingers around?
    I would have to say yes..there is a lot of pointing fingers. I have had many pointed my way due to my stand on certain topics.

    I am sure there are many, such as your self who have helped quietly and without recognition..but you are the rare one..and everyone should be greatful you do walk the talk.

    Just ask many of the rescues..especially the ones now over stocked..they can not find anyone who will adopt or donate...what they hear is: I didn't cause the problem and it is not my concern. I will look after my own horse

    Some are wise not to help if it is going to cause them a problem..but they also won't help by reaching out to those they know and asking if they could donate a bag of grain.

    As for large numbers of horses...most breeding farms WANT only six top producers...however they tend to have 20 to 50 in their herd. It is very hard to reduce numbers right now.



  2. #242
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    Nov. 16, 2004
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    Quote Originally Posted by goneriding24 View Post
    Not withstanding the whole of this posting, that's pretty funny. "Over there" from where I live in southern OR is Salt Lake City or Portland or Sacramento. A Sunday drive is Bend or Eugene and probably back. It's about 45 minutes for me to get to the nearest big city, piece of cake.
    I hate to derail even more, but my mom lives in Lone Pine, CA where they get a lot of tourist traffic stopping in their tiny town. Once a man asked her where was the closest Wal Mart....he didn't believe her when she told him 90 miles, north, or 90 miles south, and there's not much in between .



  3. #243
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fairfax View Post



    Just ask many of the rescues..especially the ones now over stocked..they can not find anyone who will adopt or donate...what they hear is: I didn't cause the problem and it is not my concern. I will look after my own horse
    isn't that appropriate? Isn't that what this thread is all about? Taking care of what you have before you get in over your head?

    Some are wise not to help if it is going to cause them a problem..but they also won't help by reaching out to those they know and asking if they could donate a bag of grain.
    you know, I gotta say I'm tired of this. We only know for damn sure what we've done and not one other person on this board knows what it is I've done. In addition to that, there have been fingers pointed because people are across the country. Well isn't THAT also a legitimate reason? I'd FAR rather help another barn or re-rider or elderly person, or new horse owner in my area where I can keep an eye on how they are doing. Just throwing money at a situation I can't actually go visit seems foolish.



  4. #244
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    Nov. 16, 2004
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    It's not always logistically or financially feasible to help a horse across the country. That's a legitimate excuse and people DO feel bad that they can't get in their truck and go help.



  5. #245
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    well, help has many faces.
    It can come in form of money. Sure.

    But one can also lend a little moral support or toss a few ideas around.

    However, it seems like in this case, since some people did read her facebook with the advertisement of horses for sale at 1$ a piece, a little word of mouth could have gone a long way.

    Yes, it's far away for me. But not for everybody.


    What people who do not breed fail to grasp:
    even with only 2 mares you really quickly reach a large amount of heads in your herd.
    And since it takes a bare minimum of 3 years from conception before the animal has some market value (but only as started/trained mount) That crystal ball has not been invented to look that far down the road.

    Many breeders have thrown in the towel. And it is probably not long down the road when we will notice the thinned ranks of young stock coming up after our veteran horses.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mozart View Post
    Personally, I think the moderate use of shock collars in training humans should be allowed.



  6. #246
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    Feb. 6, 2003
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    Being from CT..."over there" is over there. 90 minutes get you to....a different state.
    I'm also from the land of water...we worry a lot more about drainage than finding water.

    A dollar short and a day late..however if this happens again where the owner is *trying* to sell off stock and really needs to...
    I dunno, still tough to do, but $1 per horse might be better considered by potential buyers as "free horse, just pay shipping."

    However I think in this case, the biggest issue with trying to sell off that stock is/was: So few people will take in feral animals. Understandably. Barely halter broke, past the age of needing to be started and not started, etc.

    This breeder didn't seem to do the things that don't cost anything...if you're timid or injured or have compromised health and can NOT handle animals without having help around...then breeding probably isn't for you. Because handling and training is free, just get out there and do it. And it's a hella lot easier to sell or give away handled animals with at least impeccable ground manners.
    Few people will believe that your stock is well bred and worth having if the breeder doesn't even get the basics on them.

    There are a lot of decent mustangs in the holding pens out west...that can do well in a lot of different things. And they're cheap as chips. Why nobody wants them is the same reason nobody buys or takes free a breeder's horses that also aren't handled. And no person breeding domestic horses should EVER have feral animals instead of handled ones. It just turns the buying public off.

    Maybe it's just me, but I'm a firm believer in If You Can't Train, You Shouldn't Produce It.

    (I think the same of rescues...handle and train them for heaven's sake!)

    So possibly that's the issue here. Maybe that's something that others can offer to help with in the future? Training?

    But FWIW...I do not believe that breeders (in general, not in this case) need to keep down to a public-approved number. Most breeders don't have these problems with AC. We only hear about the ones that do. Even hearing as many as we do, it's nowhere near the majority of breeders. And even breeding the best to the best 10x will only produce maybe 1 stellar animal, a couple really nice ones, a handful of good ones and 2 culls. There isn't any guarantees in breeding.
    You jump in the saddle,
    Hold onto the bridle!
    Jump in the line!
    ...Belefonte



  7. #247
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    Quote Originally Posted by MistyBlue View Post
    Being from CT..."over there" is over there. 90 minutes get you to....a different state.
    I'm also from the land of water...we worry a lot more about drainage than finding water.

    A dollar short and a day late..however if this happens again where the owner is *trying* to sell off stock and really needs to...
    I dunno, still tough to do, but $1 per horse might be better considered by potential buyers as "free horse, just pay shipping."

    However I think in this case, the biggest issue with trying to sell off that stock is/was: So few people will take in feral animals. Understandably. Barely halter broke, past the age of needing to be started and not started, etc.

    This breeder didn't seem to do the things that don't cost anything...if you're timid or injured or have compromised health and can NOT handle animals without having help around...then breeding probably isn't for you. Because handling and training is free, just get out there and do it. And it's a hella lot easier to sell or give away handled animals with at least impeccable ground manners.
    Few people will believe that your stock is well bred and worth having if the breeder doesn't even get the basics on them.

    There are a lot of decent mustangs in the holding pens out west...that can do well in a lot of different things. And they're cheap as chips. Why nobody wants them is the same reason nobody buys or takes free a breeder's horses that also aren't handled. And no person breeding domestic horses should EVER have feral animals instead of handled ones. It just turns the buying public off.

    Maybe it's just me, but I'm a firm believer in If You Can't Train, You Shouldn't Produce It.

    (I think the same of rescues...handle and train them for heaven's sake!)

    So possibly that's the issue here. Maybe that's something that others can offer to help with in the future? Training?

    But FWIW...I do not believe that breeders (in general, not in this case) need to keep down to a public-approved number. Most breeders don't have these problems with AC. We only hear about the ones that do. Even hearing as many as we do, it's nowhere near the majority of breeders. And even breeding the best to the best 10x will only produce maybe 1 stellar animal, a couple really nice ones, a handful of good ones and 2 culls. There isn't any guarantees in breeding.
    Many good points and in the end it leads me back to a big problem I have been seeing in the US horse industry for a long time now: Lack of networking.
    It might be in part because of our litigious society, but mostly because of greed: Everybody want's a cut of the pie. It's a far cry from where I grew up, time and place, where young riders started and trained the young stock for breeders for nothing more than the opportunity to ride many horses and a thank you.
    On the other side of the medallion, owners offered rides on their horses free of charge, to have the animal exercised and to give a deserving youngster a start. Many riders I know would have never made it if they had to pay every step of the way.

    Of course, if the directions to your house include 'turn off the paved road' you might not be as close to society as needed to network successfully.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mozart View Post
    Personally, I think the moderate use of shock collars in training humans should be allowed.



  8. #248
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    Apr. 23, 2004
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alagirl View Post

    What people who do not breed fail to grasp:
    even with only 2 mares you really quickly reach a large amount of heads in your herd.
    And since it takes a bare minimum of 3 years from conception before the animal has some market value (but only as started/trained mount) That crystal ball has not been invented to look that far down the road.

    Thank you! That really is the disconnect. One mare can turn into 5 horses quicker than can be imagined and projections have to be made 2-5 years down the road. Even the hobby breeder should be business like because it is entirely possible to end up with a field of horses no one wants unless you know the market very well and get lucky as far as outside economic forces, breed the right horses (and its a crapshoot no matter what you start with- Darley which is as elite as it gets in the TB world is well known for paying people so trainwrecks by their first year sires don't hit the sales ring during the initial critical weanling/yearling sales cycle) and be sufficiently capitalized. But if there is a hiccup or, yes, blind delusion, things can go downhill fast. It would not surprise me if out of 29 horses, CCH only had a foal crop of 5-6 which makes her a modest sized breeder at best. Mid sized commercial TB breeders may foal out between 15 and 20 but if they are not careful they may be nearing 100 head of mares, foals, yearlings and even two year olds depending on the time of year and the market.

    You also had an interesting point about numbers. Most of the riding horses around today reflect decisions made a decade or so ago when things were much more flush. The TB foal crop for example is down overall almost 50 % from just a few years ago. Cheer now but things in the pleasure horse market may get very interesting in the next 10 years.



  9. #249
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    I applaud those who walk to walk etc. One problem with helping "breeders" who get into these situations, the breeders don't know how to get out. Sometimes, they COUNT ( or prey) on the goodness of people. The "woe is me" line gets old quick when the behavior gets repeated. I admit, I tried to help a pony person in my old area and got taken advantage of and begged off for money. When I put my foot down helping, she tried to move on the next sucker (bad mouthing me first, of course). Most people were aware of by then, her game. Some people can't be helped, its pathological. I feel bad for the animals when I look at those pictures earlier in this thread. (I also note that the people in these situations are not hurting for a meal, unlike their animals).
    Come to the dark side, we have cookies



  10. #250
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alagirl View Post

    What people who do not breed fail to grasp:
    even with only 2 mares you really quickly reach a large amount of heads in your herd.
    And since it takes a bare minimum of 3 years from conception before the animal has some market value (but only as started/trained mount) That crystal ball has not been invented to look that far down the road.
    or those of us who don't breed DO understand how quickly 1 can become 20.

    If you can't do the work of getting your horses handled, because of other obligations, or illness, or lack of interest, maybe you should think about that.

    As for networking, I've done that but as one previous poster said, in this economy where well handled horses are cheap, why would anyone take horses that have run out on acres w/o the handling?

    I bought a mare a year ago, she was ridden, handled, clipped and had been trailered to shows for experience (she was not shown, just ridden around the grounds). I got her for a song.

    From a buyers perspective, why would I choose a horse that hasn't been trimmed or mostly handled instead of this nicely handled mare?

    Marketing for horses (especially now) is more than bloodlines. It takes some critical thinking too.



  11. #251
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    I have to say- I don't get the mentality of 2 mares becomes 4 fast...

    No- gestation is almost a year. Than re-breed, ANOTHER ALMOST YEAR.
    Come to the dark side, we have cookies



  12. #252
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    Apr. 17, 2002
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    between the barn and the pond
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    And it is probably not long down the road when we will notice the thinned ranks of young stock coming up after our veteran horses.

    OK first: who talks like this? LOL Such drama

    Thinned ranks of young stock will MAYBE mean fewer cheap and free horses on CL. That would be such a tragic turn of events, not having enough horses to throw away.



  13. #253
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    Jul. 19, 2007
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    Question: are there this year's foals (sucklings, weanlings) and in-foal mares in that group? Because if not, it sounds like she WASN'T actively breeding. I'm sure since the sheriff/AC shoved intact animals in with mares and fillies there probably are a couple mares in foal now, but was there a crop this year?

    And unhandled culls are perfect for the Canadian facilities-clean for human consumption.

    To the poster about Shipsie--personally I'd be uneasy doing it, since I don't have a place to put a horse who might have god knows what disease, but my neighbors pulled a little Hackney-type out of the back pen (not for sentiment, she'd have gone right back where she came from if she didn't work out.) She was bat-crap wild when they got her a few months ago, but she's going pretty nice in harness now. No idea why someone stuck her there, as the Amish horses at least usually have some handling on them (and she REALLY didn't) but she worked out as a bargain.



  14. #254
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    For what it's worth, no way is "Shooter" a 5-7 month old. He is a long yearling I believe. Just from what I can gather by pictures and past posts.

    This is from another forum and are pictures of the horses currently AT the rescue that is taking CCH's horses.

    https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphot...62619450_n.jpg

    https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphot...35305594_n.jpg

    Mesa, 14yrs old, in her adoption photos in August:
    https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphot...03909729_n.jpg

    Mesa one month later:
    https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphot...89576910_n.jpg

    Perhaps this rescue is already biting off more than it can chew...

    To those perhaps wondering - I am no personal stake in this situation at all, I only knew CCH by her posts on several forums, she probably wouldn't remember my nickname at all. It just happened to get posted somewhere else, and I knew she was a member here. Because I am on a lot of forums, I pick up information posted in different places and figured COTH would like to see.
    ~ The Goat Whisperer
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  15. #255
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    Feb. 28, 2006
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    Here's some thoughts just on the dispersal process - getting rid of multiple horses.
    First off, Coth doesn't permit sales ads in the regular forum posts and we are treading a fine line when we post a CL ad, any CL ad, even if it's a horse truly in need. I am pretty sure that that ASB dispersal was permitted to remain only because of the fears for the non-traditionally raised and trained animals. There's a regular set of sales for ASB'S in the traditional disciplines and not only do they cost a hefty amount but they won't take a horse in poor condition. Open broodmares, bred mares and mares with foal at foot go through all the time and they all are spic and span. Nicely groomed, well mannered etc.

    Canter ads are permitted - my opinion on that is that Coth is an old time hunter/foxhunter/jumper magazine and the traditional foxhunter was made up from a TB gotten off the track or close to it - the magazine keeps to it's roots by permitting the ads, the horses are very low cost and especially the geldings have a dubious fate awaiting them after a race career.
    I dont know how the mods and the magazine would interpret threads on breeders in need - probably they'd shunt it off to the Giveaways but from what I have read the Giveaways are a dangerous place, home to lurking collectors going to create the same problem that a dispersal is trying to alleviate. Besides, I, and probably a lot of other people, am not in the market for another horse so why in H would I scroll down and check out free horses? I can't afford another, I'd be stupid.

    Lastly I hate saying "never". There's this little thing called hubris, it comes along and slaps you down especially when you make pronouncements. A year and a half ago if you'd told me I'd have 7 cats I'd have laughed in your face, then one little unspayed female showed up and we weren't aggressive enough in our dealings with her - more of those circumstances - like, she belonged to the neighbor who evidently was in the process of abandoning her. I love all the kitties but there is now a cap on care. Has to be.
    Courageous Weenie Eventer Wannabe
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  16. #256
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    Mar. 25, 2011
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    I have one horse. I can take care of one horse. If someone approaches me in desperate need to place a horse I can't help that way because I can afford one horse. I will help in any way I can -call somebody, spread the word, donate time, food, cash if I have it, but I won't be part of the problem of taking on more animals than I can afford because I feel bad. I live by, "The road to hell is paved with good intentions".

    Paula
    He is total garbage! Quick! Hide him on my trailer (Petstorejunkie).



  17. #257
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    Jun. 14, 2006
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    I "know" CCH in a limited way from other boards. We're not close and I haven't spoken with her personally about the situation nor is my memory so good that I can remember all of the details over the last year from her posts.

    BUT, I do know that she has been actively trying to get rid of horses for some time. And she has some nice lines. I don't recall precisely what the nature was of her personal loss/financial stuff, and it wouldn't be my place to throw it out here anyway but there were/are some things going on that have put her in a position where she needed/wanted to liquidate.

    I'm not making any excuses for inadequate care. But there is a human being behind this who HAS been trying to get rid of horses, she's not a hoarder or a psycho.

    That B/W paint shown on the site wasn't one of hers btw. The articles were a little misleading.
    A good horseman doesn't have to tell anyone...the horse already knows.

    Might be a reason, never an excuse...



  18. #258
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    There is some talk that the light colored horse pictured on the news article wasn't hers either, but not sure how accurate that is.
    ~ The Goat Whisperer
    Website



  19. #259
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    May. 17, 2010
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    Quote Originally Posted by danceronice View Post
    Question: are there this year's foals (sucklings, weanlings) and in-foal mares in that group? Because if not, it sounds like she WASN'T actively breeding. I'm sure since the sheriff/AC shoved intact animals in with mares and fillies there probably are a couple mares in foal now, but was there a crop this year?
    Without looking back through the thread, I thought someone posted a spring post of CCH's talking about this year's foals.


    As far as her posting about cutting down numbers and offering horses for $1-750, honestly, that wouldn't have registered on my radar as a "she's in trouble post."

    Plenty of people have a bunch of horses with most at the higher price (750) but one or two older or less-than-quality animals that they just want a good home for (1-100). And in her area young horses with little/no training, average bloodlines and maybe a touch of color are worth about what she advertised. The huge ranches in the midwest/south often have many youngsters they are culling in the $250-500 range; decent bloodlines but young, no training, and not the "prime" quality.

    If offering cheap horses is a sign we should be taking as a call for help there are a bunch on the giveaways we should be looking at to see if they need help.



  20. #260
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    Apr. 4, 2006
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    I'm just going to throw a few things in there from a breeder that no longer breeds and didn't have to have a $1 sale either. I bred for racing and jumpers. All my racemares threw winners I bred. Thing is I knew when it was time to call it quits before I did. I was one year too late. But I kept everything until they sold to homes to do their jobs. Nobody went hungry, cold, or without vet and farrier. Sold the mares bar one as she needed put down. She wasn't going to cope with another winter. I still have contact with those owners. They call me and let me know how they are.

    I still have Stella whom I bred SJ's from. She's not been bred in 3 years. She may never be bred again. Her kids have done well. All 2 at competition age. I still have more to accomplish from Abba but I'm working on it. There is a 2 YO I sold. They think a lot of him. We shall see. While i did have to shift things around this year it wasn't so bad. I didn't get to compete but I ended up having a good year anyway with Abba and will be better for it next year. And most importantly things aren't getting out of hand when the only thing you curtail is competition. I'm not putting foals on the ground and everyone has exactly what they need and if I'm honest, more than most. I have 5.

    My point in all this is that not all of us are stupid or breed crap. If you want big bucks you start with the mares that almost guarantee that. They cost big money. If you want to make your own pedigree then you do it yourself. They must be handled, raised right, started and doing something before you get any return, if any. My rule of thumb is this. If I dont see myself supporting the mare through conception and then for 4 years until doing something, I don't breed. Simple.

    I do feel for CCH. It sounded a very lonely operation where she lived and on her own. Plus, if you have a network around you sometimes the decisions are easier with outside info. There's a good group around me. Although I must admit they suck on the "why won't you breed this year" front. Where as I'm always the one saying, "why in hell are you thinking of breeding". But look it, I have 5 of my own and 3 client horses. I'm sick with a flu this week. Bad in my chest. Thankfully my husband can manage all of it plus the other responsibilities he has. If I was on my own I'd be desperate. Day in and day out with just 8 and 2 people can seem endless some days. So can't imagine what she was going through. Anyway, sending her my best wishes.

    Terri
    COTH, keeping popcorn growers in business for years.

    "I need your grace to remind me to find my own." Snow Patrol-Chasing Cars. This line reminds me why I have horses.



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