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  1. #41
    Join Date
    Dec. 20, 2011
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    1,192

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    Quote Originally Posted by buck22 View Post
    *No horses were harmed in the making of this experiment and were completely comfortable with hamming it up for the camera for extra goodies when done
    http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c5...IMG_3285-1.jpg
    Thank you for the education, buck22, and for the hamming-it-up shot!



  2. #42
    Join Date
    Jul. 31, 2007
    Posts
    15,392

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    Quote Originally Posted by buck22 View Post
    I'm no bit expert, but I actually had the same question a few years ago, and in my small little experiment it appears as if it doesn't because a real baucher isn't a fixed cheek, its a hanging cheek, nothing fixed about it, though it looks for all the world as if it is.

    A hanging cheek, or baucher might have only a small little opening at top where the cheek piece of the bridle is put through, but its still a circular opening which allows the entire bit to turn freely if rein pressure dictates. Were the opening a slot instead of a round circle, the bridle cheek piece would be fixed. So when enough rein pressure were applied to to pull the bit it would pull down on the bridle cheek piece, likely creating poll pressure.

    But because the part where you attach the bridle is round and open, and the part where you attach the rein is round and open, the bit can can move and rotate, not creating leverage.... despite looking like its designed to do just that.


    These photos are very old and very terrible, but hopefully shows what I mean.

    Here is a baucher with no rein pressure
    http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c5...t/IMG_3291.jpg

    with moderate rein pressure
    http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c5...IMG_3293-1.jpg
    you can see that while the top of the bit hasn't rotated in the bridle cheek piece, it appears its not fixed or pulling downwards either

    and with much firmer rein pressure
    http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c5...IMG_3292-1.jpg
    where you can clearly see the bit has lifted in the horse's mouth, releasing pressure on the bridle entirely.

    While I don't think this is conclusive evidence that *all* bauchers lift when pulled upon, I do think it illustrates that the bit is able to operate independent of the bridle because its not fixed.


    I also did the same with a full cheek with keepers. I didn't have keepers handy so I used a bit of bailing twine

    here is the bit in neutral
    http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c5...IMG_3279-1.jpg

    with moderate rein pressure
    http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c5...IMG_3286-1.jpg

    and then increasing rein pressure
    http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c5...IMG_3287-1.jpg
    where you can see the cheek piece of the bridle bending at the point where the keeper ties it in because the bit can't rotate (its fixed by the keeper), I presume its applying poll pressure at this point

    and then even more pressure
    http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c5...IMG_3288-1.jpg
    where despite the terrible photo, its very obvious the cheek piece is being pulled and distorted because it can't rotate.





    *No horses were harmed in the making of this experiment and were completely comfortable with hamming it up for the camera for extra goodies when done
    http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c5...IMG_3285-1.jpg

    I appreciate the educational pictures!

    They do make the difference in action between that baucher and a full cheek clear.

    But it looks to me like the bit and cheek pieces of the baucher remain in allgnment under "moderate" pressure because the horse has dropped well behind the vertical.

    Looking at the full cheek vs. the baucher where there is some rein pressure and asking what the bit does with respect to the cheek pieces, I think I have an answer:

    I think both bits exert some pressure on the poll. I think they also move up to the corners of the horse's mouth if you keep pulling. But the "action"-- the speed with which the bit does this when you pull or lets go when you offer rein-- is probably slower with the baucher. It's the loose ring on the baucher that does it. Also, I have seen longer "stems" connecting the ring of the bit to the cheek piece. IMO, the longer the stem, the more poll pressure the bit exerts for the same amount of pull on the reins.

    Oh, and back in the day, you could find loose-ring full cheeks. To me, those bits don't have many uses. The side of the full cheek might push the horse's head around for steering, but you'd lose the effect on the poll/corners of the mouth.

    I hope this makes sense.
    The armchair saddler
    Politically Pro-Cat



  3. #43
    Join Date
    Oct. 7, 2010
    Posts
    1,225

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    Oh, and back in the day, you could find loose-ring full cheeks. To me, those bits don't have many uses. The side of the full cheek might push the horse's head around for steering, but you'd lose the effect on the poll/corners of the mouth.
    MVP, do you mean a Fulmer snaffle?
    http://www.littletreesaddles.com/bits.htm
    (Look down three or four pics for the Fulmer)

    I like these, though I haven't ever used one with keepers, and the old one I have in my tack box isn't light or hollow mouthed, it's pretty heavy. (The only ones I've seen for sale in the US for the last few years, have been hollow mouth Fulmer snaffles.) But a lot of horses like my old bit, as long as they have some room inside their mouth for a single joint snaffle. I've had more horses go well in my old Fulmer snaffle than my basic eggbutt. It is great for lateral stability, but still pretty mobile in their mouth to keep them soft. I especially like it for starting a colt.



  4. #44
    Join Date
    Jul. 31, 2007
    Posts
    15,392

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fillabeana View Post
    MVP, do you mean a Fulmer snaffle?
    http://www.littletreesaddles.com/bits.htm
    (Look down three or four pics for the Fulmer)

    I like these, though I haven't ever used one with keepers, and the old one I have in my tack box isn't light or hollow mouthed, it's pretty heavy. (The only ones I've seen for sale in the US for the last few years, have been hollow mouth Fulmer snaffles.) But a lot of horses like my old bit, as long as they have some room inside their mouth for a single joint snaffle. I've had more horses go well in my old Fulmer snaffle than my basic eggbutt. It is great for lateral stability, but still pretty mobile in their mouth to keep them soft. I especially like it for starting a colt.
    Yeah, a Fullmer snaffle!

    I remember them being very heavy. I never knew what people used them for. Thanks for the info.
    The armchair saddler
    Politically Pro-Cat



  5. #45
    Join Date
    Jun. 17, 2001
    Location
    down the road from bar.ka
    Posts
    31,752

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    Pretty late on here and back to the original topic...

    I hung the Western spurs up about 30 years ago and the exact same discussion was taking place. Promises that the new judging criteria insisting on the poll no lower then the withers and freer, more forward movement with a 3 beat canter would fix it all.

    Stop pinning what the stuff creates and it will go away. Keep the peanut rolling 4 beat tranter pinning on top and they will find a way to pervert what comes naturally to create it. Don't have to pay a steward for that either.

    I'm not holding my breath here.
    When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

    The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.



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