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  1. #1
    Join Date
    May. 15, 2009
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    Eastern Ontario, CND
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    Default Beware. Some people really do flip horses for money... and don't post on COTH

    Y'all want something actually worth getting in a huff over?

    https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...type=1&theater
    https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...type=1&theater

    This mare was given away on a Sunday by an owner who really cared for her & held her for several years trying to find the right owner. By Wednesday she was listed on our page looking for a home because she was on her way to a plant in Quebec to be turned into steaks.

    Stella is lucky, she has found a really great home.

    Just in the last few weeks we've been in contact with at least 5 former owners; scooping up horses they once loved (and one who actually sent him & couldn't care less). And those are only the ones we where able to find former owners for/have them find us.

    You want to make sure your horse stays safe? Keep in regular POLITE contact with their new owners, be clear in your expectations and offer a buy-back if things don't work out. It's not fool-proof but it's going to give you a whole lot more then a piece of paper when you don't even know where the horse is.

    (I have a chron give-away, his form. owner & I talk frequently, he's a great fit here)
    "For some people it's not enough to just be a horse's bum, you have to be sea biscuit's bum" -anon.
    Nes' Farm Blog ~ DesigNes.ca
    Need You Now Equine



  2. #2
    Join Date
    Apr. 23, 2012
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    4

    Default

    We all know it happens - but most people dont post all over the interwebby saying how great their new horse is and how they will have many more years with them.....



  3. #3
    Join Date
    Oct. 14, 2010
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    2,709

    Default

    So?

    Yes, it's hard hearted, but those people gave their horses away. You have no right to any expectations after you transfer ownership. The horse is no longer yours. I didn't think that concept was really that hard to grasp, but apparently I'm wrong.

    If you want to "make sure your horse stays safe" don't transfer ownership; keep feeding and caring for it on your own dime.



  4. #4
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    May. 15, 2009
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    Eastern Ontario, CND
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    Default

    This does not need to be a re-hash of the other thread.

    I don't think there is a thing wrong with selling on a horse; but I can tell you now a days (and if you don't know we're having a BAD drought in parts of Ontario) even good training & papers won't save your horse.

    We love it when horses have their papers/tatts so we can track down their history and at least give their new owners some history. But over the last year we've seen school masters, registered NICE broodmares, family ponies... you name it.

    If you send your horse to auction and either don't stay, don't place a reserve on them and the buyers aren't there, the meat buyers are always there.
    "For some people it's not enough to just be a horse's bum, you have to be sea biscuit's bum" -anon.
    Nes' Farm Blog ~ DesigNes.ca
    Need You Now Equine



  5. #5
    Join Date
    Sep. 15, 2008
    Location
    Michigan
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    1,470

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nes View Post
    This does not need to be a re-hash of the other thread.
    I agree. So why was it started?

    Owner transferred ownership. New owner can do as they please with horse. End of story.



  6. #6
    Join Date
    May. 15, 2009
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    Eastern Ontario, CND
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Derby Lyn Farms View Post
    I agree. So why was it started?
    Because I wanted to show people what a real flipper does.

    We have heard all kinds of stories, don't trust someone just because they show up with a differently-abled child, or even if they work with them on a regular basis.

    Doesn't make a you an honest or good person.
    "For some people it's not enough to just be a horse's bum, you have to be sea biscuit's bum" -anon.
    Nes' Farm Blog ~ DesigNes.ca
    Need You Now Equine



  7. #7
    Join Date
    Nov. 12, 2009
    Location
    New England
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    1,376

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Trace66 View Post
    We all know it happens - but most people dont post all over the interwebby saying how great their new horse is and how they will have many more years with them.....
    Your posts reek of a personal vendetta - and you want to keep it going over here now that the thread was closed on TOB? Give it a rest already!



  8. #8

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nes View Post
    You want to make sure your horse stays safe? [...] offer a buy-back if things don't work out.
    The buy-back clause will keep an honest buyer honest, but I'm not convinced it'll have any effect on an indifferent or dishonest buyer. Unless there's a penalty clause attached to it, I'm not convinced it would be enforceable in any meaningful way (caveat: not a lawyer, never stayed at a Holiday Inn). And even then, you'll recoup the penalty $, not the horse (if you can even find the buyer again).



  9. #9
    Join Date
    Oct. 12, 2001
    Location
    Center of the Universe
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    Default

    what is wrong with selling a "give-away"? if I had the facilities and skills, I think I would quite enjoy looking for cheap or free horses who could be "improved" in some way by spending a few months being retrained or just fed and regularly worked, and then sell them on to a good home for a bit of profit. Why not? lots of people do similar things- get cheap OTTBs, retrain, sell them. Many rescues do the same- get a free horse from a bad situation, rehab it, then move it along to a different home.
    Nothing wrong with "Flipping" horses for money, and lots of "right" about it. If done properly, everyone benefits: the prior owner who doesn't want the horse anymore doesn't have the horse anymore; the horse gets a good home; and the flipper earns a bit of money.

    However, if you don't want your unsound or very aged horse to end up in the slaughterhouse, I recommend NOT giving it away. A legit "horse flipper" isn't going to want a lame horse or an old horse because they can't be improved and sold on to a good home, so there's only one place for them to go.



  10. #10
    Join Date
    Aug. 25, 2012
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    93

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by red mares View Post
    So?

    Yes, it's hard hearted, but those people gave their horses away. You have no right to any expectations after you transfer ownership. The horse is no longer yours. I didn't think that concept was really that hard to grasp, but apparently I'm wrong.

    If you want to "make sure your horse stays safe" don't transfer ownership; keep feeding and caring for it on your own dime.
    Exactly. I'd add never buy (or accept a freebie) from a person that demands updates. I've been to that rodeo. It's nice to send updates to previous owners, but it is a curtesy. Once an animal leaves your possession, it is over, move on.



  11. #11
    Join Date
    Aug. 4, 2009
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    MD
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    4,162

    Default

    I didn't see a KB truck waiting to "buy" the horse...get real.

    I "Flip" horses so to speak and the trainers/owners/connections are actually thrilled I got their horse a new life as a Sports Horse....I happily give updates photo's and when the horse goes on in its new career I try to follow them...



  12. #12

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by wendy View Post
    what is wrong with selling a "give-away"?
    Nothing, if both parties are upfront and honest about the horse's future.

    Where things get murky is when the original owner is giving the horse away and gets caught up in the emotional "I may not be making any money, but at least I am finding Dobbin the best possible future forever home" mentality.

    And the new owner assures the original owner that they are that perfect forever home, Dobbin is just what they wanted for their daughter's future 4-H mount, etc.

    Then turns around and sells within days/weeks/in a timeframe that shows they clearly lied about their intent to keep the horse forever and intended to flip all along.

    It's not selling a giveaway that's bad, it's selling a giveaway after lying/misrepresenting the intent to sell.

    Don't get me wrong -- I'm in the 'once it's out of your hands, you have no control' camp and think every buyer/person giving away a horse has to understand the horse may end up in places they don't want the horse to end up. Possibly very quickly/the next day.

    And I think if you're giving away a horse, you have to expect even more lying buyers than the average sale, because there is that much more room for quick profit.

    But that doesn't make it less upsetting if you've done all your due diligence and thought you'd placed the horse as well as you could... and then discover you've been outright conned.



  13. #13

    Default

    Ok, I went to the links ... you are a rescue, I assume. So, someone sold a horse to a person who sent it to a kill sale/supplies meat buyers, then you got it before that horse was put on the truck? Good save. Now the horse is being flipped again, since you aren't giving the horse a forever home, either.

    And frankly, keeping in touch with the new buyer is no guarantee that the horse will be safe. The new buyer owes the seller nothing unless there's an adoption contract. Promises are made, promises broken, happens every day. Even with the best of intentions.

    I didn't really understand the drama here, other than you seem to be a pot stirring kind of person.

    Edit to say, it is a nice courtesy to hunt down former owners and breathlessly tell them how their horse was almost a steak, but on the other hand, have you considered how much stress that might put on a person that can't take that horse back, and has no agency to help it now?

    Sometimes the best of intentions can hurt people unintentionally. They sold the horse for a reason, and they were ready to move on, most likely. You are dredging up things from the past that they now have to deal with.



  14. #14
    Join Date
    May. 15, 2009
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    Eastern Ontario, CND
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    Default

    I'm sorry Kwill you're going to have to explain to me then what you'd like us to DO with all the horses that come out of the lot, other then re-home them? Nope they aren't all going to go wonderful homes, but so far we've kept pretty good track of them.

    (I suggest you read our FAQ if you're actually interested in our group; we don't require contracts because we have pulled "rescues" horses out of the lot before.)

    I was trying to impart what I've seen while working with NYNE. The people who stay aware of their horse community are the ones that get a hold of us and find their old horses.

    Actually it's very difficult and stressful to contact people who may or may not be able to take the horse back; and we never do it to guilt them into buying the horse back, only to find out more information. Frequently we get next to nothing on these horses, including whether or not they are broke which is very important in helping find a suitable new home.

    We always work with those former owners, if they want, to help re-home the horse, even if it's not with them. We did that with an arab mare recently and with a QH mare today. Either by helping them raise money as a loan or donation to buy the horse if they need it, or just re-homing the horses like we always do and letting them know their pony is once again in a good home.

    I feel absolutely terrible for Stella's last owner. She cares deeply for her horses, did everything she was supposed to & I know the horse ending up where it did was one of her worst fears. I can't imagine finding one of my own horses there, it would be heartbreaking. It is heartbreaking enough when they are horses I don't know personally.

    It is one of the very worst kinds of people that misrepresent themselves to someone then turn around to take the horse to auction the next day; and she's a beautiful mare, no reason she was there. So you want to get upset over some nonsense about someone selling on a horse they got for free, well there is another thread here for that; want to get upset about an actual injustice, this is one of the many that happen every day.

    Really purchasing & upgrading a horse (either health or training) is not flipping, I don't know how so many equestrians lost sight of the business.

    Flipping is buying a horse and turning around and selling it straight out.

    Stella was flipped.
    "For some people it's not enough to just be a horse's bum, you have to be sea biscuit's bum" -anon.
    Nes' Farm Blog ~ DesigNes.ca
    Need You Now Equine



  15. #15
    Join Date
    Mar. 1, 2005
    Location
    maryland
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    5,219

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by red mares View Post
    So?

    Yes, it's hard hearted, but those people gave their horses away. You have no right to any expectations after you transfer ownership. The horse is no longer yours. I didn't think that concept was really that hard to grasp, but apparently I'm wrong.

    If you want to "make sure your horse stays safe" don't transfer ownership; keep feeding and caring for it on your own dime.
    Problem #1 is that some buyers are getting horses under false pretenses. If horse is for sale "to good home only" and buyer promises good home, and two weeks later horse is in a killpen, isn't there something wrong with that?

    A broker in PA was doing it to horses given to her under the understanding they'd be going to good homes. She sent some to a kill buyer. She is now charged with theft by deception.

    We also have buyers in my region who not only lie about their intentions, they give out false names and addresses.

    I think you're being unrealistic that nobody should ever be able to sell their horse. Some people must sell due to financial limitations, disability, death in the family, or relocation. Are you proposing sellers deserve to be lied to when they try to sell their inexpensive horse to a good home?

    And with the attitude that once a horse is sold absolutely no strings should be attached, some buyers totally ignore the sales contract. Some buyers happily take a horse with the written agreement old owner is offered first chance at buying him back. Are we now saying those contracts should never be honored?



  16. #16

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    Nes, I am sure you are doing good works. I was just presenting a different point of view.

    Flipping is buying a horse and turning around and selling it straight out.
    So, to continue in my crabby old lady mode, when are you not flipping? when is it ok to sell a horse on after you get it? When you have added value? After a certain amount of time has passed?

    There are a lot of muddled issues here. There are a number of scenarios:

    1. lying outright to someone that they want the horse for a personal use, when they have every intention of selling to someone who wants to put it on a truck and send it to a slaughter plant. Or that person is the kill buyer, and sells it to the plant directly.

    2. Lying outright to the seller and putting it into the auction chain, which means the horse gets sold over and over at auctions by various people.

    2. Promising that a horse will be yours forever, and then changing your mind two days later and putting it up for sale, but trying to find a good home.

    3. Buying/getting a free horse for the express purpose of reselling it for more money, as soon as you can.

    Which of these are flipping?



  17. #17
    Join Date
    May. 15, 2009
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    Eastern Ontario, CND
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    Default

    (Sorry if I sound grumpy, was up late last night organizing photos for today)

    We don't flip because we only facilitate transfer directly from the dealer (who is certainly someone you could say is flipping... sort of, he's selling for meat) to the new owner. If we were buying the horses (and sometimes we do temporarily) you could say we were flipping, but we usually don't do that & we're NFP.

    Any of those are flipping, except 3 in the case that the horse sells for the same amount of money & you're not making any profit; and if kept for a period of more then a few days, you could add cost to the value. I wouldn't call that rescuing either, which is quite popular among some people.

    But say I purchase a horse or get one for free, no matter where you're buying them from, if you then put in at minimum vet, farrier & feed(*) - you're upgrading that horse and just being part of the horse-business. If you're adding training, even better.

    (*assuming this is a horse you got from auction/poor circumstance/etc. so that the horse hadn't received adequate vet/farrier or feed)
    "For some people it's not enough to just be a horse's bum, you have to be sea biscuit's bum" -anon.
    Nes' Farm Blog ~ DesigNes.ca
    Need You Now Equine



  18. #18
    Join Date
    Oct. 14, 2010
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    2,709

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    Quote Originally Posted by philosoraptor View Post
    I think you're being unrealistic that nobody should ever be able to sell their horse. Some people must sell due to financial limitations, disability, death in the family, or relocation. Are you proposing sellers deserve to be lied to when they try to sell their inexpensive horse to a good home?

    And with the attitude that once a horse is sold absolutely no strings should be attached, some buyers totally ignore the sales contract. Some buyers happily take a horse with the written agreement old owner is offered first chance at buying him back. Are we now saying those contracts should never be honored?
    I 100% believe horses should be sold. I whole-heartedly endorse selling horses. I have one for sale now. Once the check clears & the papers are transferred, you will never hear from me again.

    What I disagree with is the notion that the buyer owes the seller anything other than payment in full. I think too many people no longer fully understand the concept of *SOLD*. I disagree with the concept of strings attached to a sale. I disagree with "rescuing" horses and not passing on full ownership.

    I think that if a seller wishes to dictate terms to the buyer, after the horse is paid in full, the seller should keep the horse. If the seller is no longer willing or able to keep said horse than they are not in a position to dictate what happens to that horse.



  19. #19

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    So red mares, let's say you sold your horse to someone, then Nes calls you up a month later and says, "your horse ended up in my rescue, he was about to become a steak." Would you want to get that call?



  20. #20
    Join Date
    May. 15, 2009
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    Eastern Ontario, CND
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    Default

    Just a side note, I would never say anything that cruel!

    It's:

    Hello so & so
    I work with a feedlot rescue group named... We found a horse we think you may have owned and was wondering if you had any information that would help us get them into a new home.
    Thank you for your time

    & the greater majority of people find us, then we go looking for & I tend to only go looking up horses who are going to be harder to place for some reason. (A lame 16 year old broodmare for instance)

    As well, I really think you're misinterpreting what rm is saying. We have dealt with stalkerish level rescue groups, and individuals as well, they go far & beyond what is acceptable social contact for the person they've sold the horse too. And doing that is going to end your contact with the buyer because that person is going to get sick of dealing with you and they have no legal obligation to contact you.

    (You can write down whatever you want on a piece of paper, if there are no laws to back it up, that's all it's worth)

    That is very different then one-off contact from someone who has found a former horse of yours in a bad situation.
    "For some people it's not enough to just be a horse's bum, you have to be sea biscuit's bum" -anon.
    Nes' Farm Blog ~ DesigNes.ca
    Need You Now Equine



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