[wookie]

free 7 yr old ottb gelding 15 2 chestnut with a blaze. this guy is super talented but is a handful when ridden. can be awesome for quite a period and then will rear, buck, and completely lose it with no warning. he has been checked for lymes and is not sore. has had saddle fittings, acupuncture, etc. i picked him up for his previous rider who is very talented felt he had an issue that they couldn't pinpoint. he would be great and then loose it with no warning. he would make a great companion horse....his ground manners are great. and for the past month he has been great under saddle and then today he lost it. with no warning he bucked and when that didn't unseat me, he lurched into a full rear and came off the ground. he then continued with the antics and i managed to stay on. as i put the reins in one hand tightly and lifted my right foot out of the stirrup. he unleased again and i came off. i will not get on him again. he is free with a full set of shots and coggins. goes barefoot. but he comes with full disclosure. pm for details

[Calamber]

I know you are trying to do what is best for the horse, but what about the people down the line who will not be so honest as you? This horse could kill someone, send him to the foxhound kennels.

[JanWeber]

Or see the thread where donation to a vet school is discussed. As someone whose daughter was once on the receiving end of one of these - you are doing him no favor passing him on. Agreed, someone else down the line will not be so honest.

[Acertainsmile]

I'm going to ask some questions, just because I don't know you...

Define "talent" in both the horse and previous rider? Could be something serious, or he's been allowed to get away with this crap. Does he have a registered name? I might be able to dig up some further history on this boy.

[KentuckyTBs]

Acertainsmile - I PM her for more info on the horse with questions like you asked. I am also curious about more information on him.

Wookie - you have a PM :-)

[Acertainsmile]

Kentucky, if you wouldnt mind pming me the info if you get it...If the horse was on the MD tracks I will most likely know the trainer.

I trained a very bad actor that I owned personally. He managed to dump everyone that ever got on him at one point or another. Yet, he was the sweetest horse on the ground that I had ever been around. I brought him home and turned him out for 6 months, restarted him from the ground up but those "episodes" were still there. I sent him off to a H/J trainer friend of mine for the winter who really had time to work with him and he came back a different horse. He was shown and jumped 3'6 courses and ended up a really nice horse. Sometimes you just never know!

[Acertainsmile]

Wookie, is this the horse?

http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/sh...75#post6502575

Have you contacted the trainer?

[KentuckyTBs]

Kentucky, if you wouldnt mind pming me the info if you get it...If the horse was on the MD tracks I will most likely know the trainer.

Will do - If it is the one in the link below, he's a cutie - I'm really interested in him, so I hope to hear back soon. My old TB was a rearer and I ended up having to completely restart (lunging without tack then with tack then just walking under saddle, progressing to w/t for a long time then move on to cantering and such) her 3 times before I got her to the right point. She had been badly broke before I got her then got injured and was laid off for 6 months soon after I got her. One of the trainers I went to for lessons soon after I brought her back to work pushed her way too hard, way too fast and in her mind, she thought she was still sore (even though she wasn't) - so she started rearing to avoid her "pain" - such a mess. Took a while to rehab her correctly and I learned a lot with her - but in the end, I was able to place her in a great trail ride/dressage home and she hasn't reared since. I did disclose everything to her new owner, as well as let her know warning signs that the mare would give if she was thinking of doing it. The woman loves her, her sons ride her occasionally, and the horse has her own herd of sheep to protect! LOL She's a happy, spoiled horse

[wookie]

a certain smile....strike it lucky is the horse. he was about to get on a trailer to auction from my barn. he had two riders up to that point. one overfaced him and the other is a prelim event rider who trains in dressage to the intermediare level. she has ridden some tough horses.

i did not want him to go to auction for 2 reasons....i didn't want some parent picking him up for their child and end up with a critically injured child. or go to the meat man. he would have been better off euthanized. but i had always been fond of this horse...gut feeling. he is a small package with great bone, huge movement when he relaxes, and can jump the moon. so i begged my friend not to take him and found he and i a sponsor. i already own 4 ottb's and my last name is not rockefeller. my goal was no sress so i brought him down to basics. short rides always ending on a positive note. we jumped small fences even though he had been jumping 3 3". i put him on ulcer meds and exstress. the show he pulled his moves at had 6 riders in total. not a stressful busy environment. i trailered him there the day before and walked him around in hand to decrease the stress even further.

i would love to speak to mr starky about him.

i have a vet coming in a week to do chiro, blood, etc. and he may get a trip to a cowboy if that is all negative to ride out his antics and teach him it's not acceptable. i can ride a buck, but the rear and lurch and leap followed by more bronc bucking was ridiculous. it was methodical. each move he upped the anti in order to get those reins and unseat me. and when i did go to dismount after my "8" second ride...he waited until i lifted one foot out of the stirrup and unleased again. i bailed as soon as i felt it start for i was between a trailer and a fence line and i was not about to get killed for a walk trot test.

i am sick about this. but i am not a fool and do not intend to put him in a situation where this continues or he is passed from person to person. he has already had that. but....there is a point where he may need to go no further. and the donation to a vet school may be the correct idea if all else fails.

if i hadn't have stepped in a month ago...i can not imagine where he would be now. or possibly i can...and canada or mexico is not in his future.

[wookie]

Or see the thread where donation to a vet school is discussed. As someone whose daughter was once on the receiving end of one of these - you are doing him no favor passing him on. Agreed, someone else down the line will not be so honest.

thank you. that is very much an option and hadn't thought about it. my vet is coming out in a week to do blood work and chiro. i will go from there. i always expect a physical problem that may have led to a learned behavioral problem.

but if that is all negative....this may be a good option...not one i choose lightly but i will not have him end up in a bad situation or in another country heading down a chute.

[wookie]

I know you are trying to do what is best for the horse, but what about the people down the line who will not be so honest as you? This horse could kill someone, send him to the foxhound kennels.

i respect this statement. very true. if someone took him as a companion only....it would come with some serious strings as is farm visits and right of first refusal...as in give him to me for the same price you paid...nothing

[Acertainsmile]

I commend you for saving this horse, he sounds very much like the horse I had previously talked about (same kind of antics). I think it would be wise to talk to his former trainer to get a line on him as to how he was on the track before making any decisions for him. Believe it or not, what really worked for my horse was some Parrelli excersies. I was really quite impressed (and a little shocked) to see my trainer friend using this method as I had no idea he did this. Sometimes it's whatever works!

Believe me, I understand truly dangerous horses as I've been around a few that were "lost causes". Usually there was either a pain issue or neuroligical problem.

[cai]

I know you said back is checked--but this behavior sounds just like a horse I knew that had kissing spines. Would be fine in work and then periodic "losing it" violent moments--mostly bronc-ing--I'm assuming when the vertebrae in question sparked a moment of acute pain. Very frustrating and scary as horse was fine the rest of the time. I don't know if kissing spines always present with palpable back soreness, but a back x-ray would tell. Just my experience...hope you find a good answer for this guy!

[Pussy Cat]

I agree with cai about checking for kissing spines. A friend's mare had it. Sweet girl on the ground and most of the time under saddle and then suddenly explosive. Finally figured out what it was and retired her.

I've ridden a few horses like this. Some respond to the kind of very slow very time consuming retraining acertainsmile was talking about, with others it has been a matter of recognizing the trigger - one was smart and eager to please but easily frustrated if he didn't "get it" and his answer was to go up. These guys are challenging but can be so rewarding in the end. Then there are the truly bad actors who really need a dignified end so they don't end up in a bad place. Good for you doing what's right for this horse.

[RiverBendPol]

We've been there and done that. We spent 6 years trying to get to the bottom of the LOVELIEST OTTB. He was pure heaven...until he wasn't. He nearly killed me and my daughter on many different occasions, much like those told in the OP. We spent MANY thousands of dollars trying to find the medical reasons for his behavior. We wracked our brains trying. We put him down last summer. Not sure I've wept so hard over a corpse in my life. Please think long and hard about whether you want to subject HIM to possible tough guys who will "train it out of him". That's why our dear Scotty went in the ground. With a mouthful of fresh green grass and his best friends (human, equine, canine) nearby for moral support, he knew we were supporting him, we know he will never suffer his own internal demons nor the hard hands of know-it-all-trainers again.

[Acertainsmile]

Riverbendpol...very sad but sometimes necessary. And I do agree with thinking long and hard about sending him to the "Cowboy" trainers. This was also suggested to me for my particular horse, but I knew my horse, and it wasnt about a bad attitude needing to be humbled, it was holes in his basic training (and okay, maybe a little "lets see what I can get away with today").

Wookie, I wish you luck on whatever you decide to do, and if you'd like to pm me I can give you the name and number of my friend (he is in Md too). Not sure if he'd like another challenge but you never know.

[vineyridge]

When you have the vet out, have him do a belly tap as well as bloodwork. I had one who acted just like this. She eventually died of chronic peritonitis and a recurrent internal abscess. We figure that might well have been going on for the whole time I owned her, but she was such a tough mare that she showed no signs of illness. But when she hurt, she couldn't and wouldn't stand being ridden. Absolute angel on the ground at all times.

[Romany]

I had one of those, too: seriously athletic Irish Sports Horse, charming on the ground, easy to ride....right up until he launched in a lethal manner, probably after every 10-12 rides.

He is now a very expensive pasture ornament, as we gave up having a string of vets, chiros, etc, poking and prodding him at our expense, and we have space for him to roam.

I suspect it's kissing spines - he's terribly short-coupled, fwiw.

[EAHS]

It definitely sounds like a physical pain issue.You just have to find out where the pain is and what is the common factor whenever he "looses it".
Glad to hear you are having the chiropractor look at him.In the mean time you could get him the back on track blanket or saddle pad.It may help with any back issues.
It is tough not knowing when he is going to react.I wish you the best of luck in finding him a home and/or figuring out what is wrong with him physically.
Have you tried contacting any rescues or sanctuaries that could take him or any therapy facilities.Horses are being used for non riding therapy these days and he may be suitable for that.I commend you for trying to do right buy him.