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  1. #1041
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    I will be honest - i loved CDK's books - and then i saw a video of him riding..... and I was shocked...... didn't quite add up to what i got from his books.... but that was years ago - before I had many of the epiphanies I have had - so know knows.... but still to this day i cringe when i hear his name.... maybe i should re-watch and see if i have changed my mind.....

    his books are great tho and i have a bunch of them.



  2. #1042
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    (A french discussion which included cdK??)
    I.D.E.A. yoda



  3. #1043
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    I don't know what experiences you all have had with him but mine were only in the best light long ago when he happened to be in Germany I believe for a visit and I was fortunate enough to see him ride and work several horses. I learned alot and stillhold respect for him as a classisist.



  4. #1044
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    As for a book list - I own about 200 books on dressage i think.... what i consider useful or helpful or eye opening changes over time depending on where I am in my own education.

    some of the books I consider a must have:

    Suenig
    Steinbrecht
    Muesler
    DeCarpentry
    Klimke
    Podhasjky
    d'Endrody
    Stecken
    The German FN books
    Putz
    Boldt
    Schusdziarra (original version)
    Niggli
    Burger

    the list goes on.... and on lol!



  5. #1045
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    Quote Originally Posted by belgianWBLuver View Post
    I don't know what experiences you all have had with him but mine were only in the best light long ago when he happened to be in Germany I believe for a visit and I was fortunate enough to see him ride and work several horses. I learned alot and stillhold respect for him as a classisist.

    yeah, maybe what i saw was just a bad video..... or maybe i was more ignorant then than i am now? who knows.....



  6. #1046
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    (Seunig)....however, isnt this discussion about FRENCH school....so only Decarpentry qualifies (and as you know I have 497....but only about 35 that are french per se.)
    I.D.E.A. yoda



  7. #1047
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    Nov. 7, 2004
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    So here's an important question. How can we connect the people with the desire to learn these methods, with those who can teach it?? I don't really have the ability to go to France to train with the Henriquets, or whatever... so how can this become more accessible for us little people who just want to progress in our learning more than books and practicing at home allow for?



  8. #1048
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Hearts View Post
    So here's an important question. How can we connect the people with the desire to learn these methods, with those who can teach it?? I don't really have the ability to go to France to train with the Henriquets, or whatever... so how can this become more accessible for us little people who just want to progress in our learning more than books and practicing at home allow for?
    You can get a taste of some quality classical work by auditing some of the Bertrand Ravoux "lightness" clinics in Pennsylvania in 2013/2014/2015 - the link is http://pkinpa.com/ You are in Ohio right??
    There are 3 in Pennsylvania and in Santa Fe, NM per year for the next 3 years.
    This is a good place to start. After that you can begin searching for clinics given by instructors versed on the subject. However, I feel, by attending one or more of these "lightness" clinics the knowledge you gain will greatly help you to choose a good U.S. instructor; hopefully one not far from you. Not to mention meeting people with like interests to perhaps communicate with for more info.
    Does anyone else have some suggestions??



  9. #1049
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    Do you think Henrequet teaches these methods? Not from what I have seen watching his wife and their students at there place. Perhaps at one point, but not any longer.

    Watch Nichole W work.
    I.D.E.A. yoda



  10. #1050
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    Also, as to books which have to do with the french school:
    Philippe Karl (three books), J.C. Racinet, Faverot de Kerbrech, James Fillis, Decarpentry (who wrote the fei rules), F. R. de la Guérinière (the basis of the SRS), Alexis L`Hotte, Nuno Oliveira, Michel Henriquet, Seeger, all of whom are very different takes.
    I.D.E.A. yoda



  11. #1051
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    Quote Originally Posted by ideayoda View Post
    Do you think Henrequet teaches these methods? Not from what I have seen watching his wife and their students at there place. Perhaps at one point, but not any longer.

    Watch Nichole W work.
    Nichole W is coming to Santa Fe soon - I look forward to auditing - have heard many good things - will see for myself.

    Henriquet still mentors Catherine in the classical method while they are working their horses young or older. He is getting old (aren't we all) so he doesn't teach all students anymore. That job is Catherine's or a groom (they have an additional instructor there now althought I don not know that person) depending on the level of the student of course.
    All the ground work and long lining, flexions etc follow the classical methodes Michel has always practised.
    Catherine - in order to compete - has gone the way of what is more commonly seen in the rectangle - and that is without a doubt - on most of her own horses. This discussion has been had already...

    However they are all brought up in the classical methodes as they arrive on the premises.



  12. #1052
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    Quote Originally Posted by belgianWBLuver View Post
    You can get a taste of some quality classical work by auditing some of the Bertrand Ravoux "lightness" clinics in Pennsylvania in 2013/2014/2015 - the link is http://pkinpa.com/ You are in Ohio right??
    There are 3 in Pennsylvania and in Santa Fe, NM per year for the next 3 years.
    This is a good place to start. After that you can begin searching for clinics given by instructors versed on the subject. However, I feel, by attending one or more of these "lightness" clinics the knowledge you gain will greatly help you to choose a good U.S. instructor; hopefully one not far from you. Not to mention meeting people with like interests to perhaps communicate with for more info.
    Does anyone else have some suggestions??
    Ditto this, and also check out other instructers from the PK Legerete program. More demand to ride / audit in the clinics here will hopefully encourage them to expand their locations in the U.S. PK is attempting to spread the info in a systemized way, as he recognizes there is a need, but it's early days in the U.S.

    Also perhaps seek instructors who are riding in the PK classes? They are from all over their respective regions. At least some of the stronger students could help articulate / demonstrate the concepts.

    You may have to hunt a little for an instructor that teaches/understands these ideas, unfortunately. The show world in my area seems quite far removed from these concepts, even at the lower levels.
    Fear is the rocket sauce.
    Jack Black



  13. #1053
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    I have two students which are in the program, refining their skills. And would comment that NW is the most articulate/detailed in explanations...there are a number of others which might come over if requested. Imho, is anyone as gifted a rider as PK, imho no...his aids/timing is the most clear.

    Think that very few people really USE the lateral work to solve problems/develop their horses as per de la Gueriniere or Baucher. The (older) srs DO use them.
    I.D.E.A. yoda



  14. #1054
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    i find it interesting that Baucher is experiencing something of a revival - both for his 1st manner (ie rollkur) and his 2nd.....

    i just hope that "we" somehow are able to produce more correct trainer and riders - no matter what school - as that will benefit the horses the most.
    Last edited by mbm; Oct. 25, 2012 at 06:24 PM.



  15. #1055
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    For sure read Seeger on the effects of bfm.
    I.D.E.A. yoda



  16. #1056
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    Also, PK's Legerete video series should be added to any "book list" for French school.



  17. #1057
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    This is actually from Wikipedia regarding Seeger/Baucher: "Louis Seeger had a chance to ride Baucher's horses and watch him work, and in 1852 published his criticism Herr Baucher und seine Künste - Ein ernstes Wort an Deutschlands Reiter, "Monsieur Baucher and his Methods".[1] His impression of the horses was poor, saying that they lacked energy and impulsion with the hindlegs dragging out behind them, especially at the trot, and the hindlegs were stiff. They were difficult to sit, dead to the leg, moved flat, and travelled on the forehand. Unsurprisingly, they could not take up even contact with the reins, and had great difficulty bending the joints of their hind legs, swishing their tail in displeasure when asked. They were also very stiff at the canter, including during the one-tempi flying changes, and could not collect, having a canter more hopping than a jumping motion. The piaffe was very incorrect, with stiff hind legs and the horses stepping sideways or backwards, the forelegs having little action since the horse was on the forehand, and the hind legs having most the action. The passage was stiff, instead of elastic and springy, and Baucher had to use a great deal of leg, spur, and whip to keep the horse going (contrary to the correct way, where the rider appears to be doing nothing at all). The horses would throw themselves around in the pirouette, instead of easily turning around.
    His method of severe bending of the horse's neck towards his chest and torso has also has had great criticism, many people believing that it is exceptionally harsh and uncomfortable for the animal. It is still employed today, however, with the methods of rollkur showing great similarities.
    Despite the criticisms of Baucher's harsh "first period", many trainers today are finding validity in the work he did during the second phase of his career. In particular, the flexions of the poll which Baucher developed, and the principle of "hand without leg, leg without hand", are to be found under slightly different terminology in the techniques of natural horsemanship."



  18. #1058
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    Well, several times when I offered horses I trained for sale or had riders and trainers come to try the, they could not ride them!

    I drape my leg. If you hop on and KICK you will meet some serious resistance. OR you will get the ride of your life. If you pull on their mouth and squeeze with the leg at the same time there is no telling what will happen. If you attempt to stop the horse with the reins, nothing will happen or tremendous collection depending. If you try to turn the horse with just the reins, the horse will continue straight ahead with his head turned.

    If you let me explain how to ride them a big smile will come across your face. Light, forward and pleasant!
    “Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.”
    ― Albert Einstein



  19. #1059
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    Quote Originally Posted by ideayoda View Post
    Also, as to books which have to do with the french school:
    Philippe Karl (three books), J.C. Racinet, Faverot de Kerbrech, James Fillis, Decarpentry (who wrote the fei rules), F. R. de la Guérinière (the basis of the SRS), Alexis L`Hotte, Nuno Oliveira, Michel Henriquet, Seeger, all of whom are very different takes.
    I remember reading somewhere that most the old, old masters (including Germans and even the Duke of Newcastle) studied with the Italian, Pinnelli (forgive my spelling) at his school and took his ideas back home and adjusted the techniques to work with their local horses. So maybe it's really the Italian School?



  20. #1060
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    Quote Originally Posted by MelantheLLC View Post
    Also, PK's Legerete video series should be added to any "book list" for French school.
    The original "French School Bibliography" earlier in this thread I believe is Post#297.



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