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  1. #1021
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    Actually I was speaking of a common thing that horses do with their tail when they are unsure and braced. It looks like an S front to back, hanging down but with the end of the tail kinked a slight bit upward at the end pointing backwards.



  2. #1022
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    Oh we speak french well enough. Just remember that for some riding is an expression of neurosis. THey want a trainer that will get tough with their horse, beat them up, show them who is boss. THEY want that.

    Folks will continue to seek out those that will tell them their horse does not want to work, is lazy, hates them, etc etc etc.

    I have never understood that.

    I have been lucky enough to have had a handful of clients who have had tremendous joy in their riding but over decades have fought notions from others in their barns who no matter how much success they have look down their nose at the french way. Eventually, even if you never name it, it is obviously different.

    Some of us are even lucky enough to have some western folks who want to know how we get our horses to do things so smoothly and calmly with such energy!!!

    I find joy where I can and share it when I can.

    Ain't life grand?
    “Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.”
    ? Albert Einstein



  3. #1023
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    Aug. 14, 2004
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    or, you can ride with a good trainer - because lets face it there *are* good german system trainers, ones that even ride in lightness etc. lol!



  4. #1024
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    Mbm, why don't you start a "Great German School" thread?

    I am sure it will have a lot more participants than this one and a wealth of info that no one has ever heard before!

    I thought this one was for those of us that think the french methods are the way we want to go or perhaps try. What do you think?
    “Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.”
    ? Albert Einstein



  5. #1025
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    :-) my point isnt that one system is better than the other - rather, that a lot of what is being touted as "French " and superior - is just stuff that any good trainer would do...... no matter what "school"

    The important thing is to find a good trainer and do what they say - that is what will lead to success - no matter what school ...

    and finally - what is being called German here (ie all the negative things being posted) is not what i would consider classical German system - it is just bad training - and it isnt bad because it is German - but rather due to it being just bad training.



  6. #1026
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    Jan. 13, 2008
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    Oh, here is the thread that I missed . I've been busy doing other things.



  7. #1027
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    Quote Originally Posted by mbm View Post
    :-) my point isnt that one system is better than the other - rather, that a lot of what is being touted as "French " and superior - is just stuff that any good trainer would do...... no matter what "school"

    The important thing is to find a good trainer and do what they say - that is what will lead to success - no matter what school ...

    and finally - what is being called German here (ie all the negative things being posted) is not what i would consider classical German system - it is just bad training - and it isnt bad because it is German - but rather due to it being just bad training.
    Merci MBM!!!!
    I agree 100% here. We need to stop calling bad methodology German or Dutch or Whatever. We need to understand the when you spend time in France there can be found some pretty Sh**ty riding and training in the name of the French school. We need to spend our time constructively looking for excellence in the French and German systems. Heck, 500 years ago there was an Italian school as well. The old guys are turning in their graves when they hear us bicker - they laugh because they know it all stemmed from the pursuit of lightness and excellence in training and was passed from France to Germany - back again - from Italy to Spain vise versa.
    Bon Bref - you get the point!



  8. #1028
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    High blowing to me is the rythmic breathing of a horse that is fully on the aids and in unison with the rider. At that point, it has been my experience that the rythm of both horse and rider will be the same ... usually. You are both in complete unison and get it.

    I believe the reason that it occurs is due to both the horse and rider finding their best active position to use their lungs and diaphram most efficiently while working. That is a martial arts and yoga technique, both being based in the natural movements of the animals.

    I call that Zen meditation ... while on your horse, and the horse understands that. That is why they enjoy working properly. And they do enjoy it.



  9. #1029
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    I think ponies tend to be a bit different than horses in their conformation and especially with how they hold their tales and use their tales naturally.

    Look at ponies going over fences and many, many have a kink in their tale and they hold it off to the side. No, they aren't doing dressage (most of the time, although probably they should be), but they have this short kinky tail carriage. By short kinky, I mean the kink is tightly up near the dock.

    I have had to get used to that because the majority of my schooling has involved what to look for in the horse. I have had to make adjustments now that I have a purebred kinky pony. He also has a crooked face which has made bridle fitting different too.

    I have discussed this with some pony breeders and they feel it is because ponies are so compact, any tiny deviation in conformation is more obvious. But, because they are so compact, it effects them less, so to speak.



  10. #1030
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    Quote Originally Posted by BaroquePony View Post
    I think ponies tend to be a bit different than horses in their conformation and especially with how they hold their tales and use their tales naturally.

    Look at ponies going over fences and many, many have a kink in their tale and they hold it off to the side. No, they aren't doing dressage (most of the time, although probably they should be), but they have this short kinky tail carriage. By short kinky, I mean the kink is tightly up near the dock.

    I have had to get used to that because the majority of my schooling has involved what to look for in the horse. I have had to make adjustments now that I have a purebred kinky pony. He also has a crooked face which has made bridle fitting different too.

    I have discussed this with some pony breeders and they feel it is because ponies are so compact, any tiny deviation in conformation is more obvious. But, because they are so compact, it effects them less, so to speak.
    Interesting thoughts regarding kinky pony tails And yes, when my guy 'curls' his tail, it is up by the dock--and its remarkably mobile--more so than most horses I have known. He does not have the same sort of tail "tone/tension" that most horses do (holds his tension more in his big fat cresty pony neck than his tail)---and there is plenty of depth/weight to his tail--so its not a lightweight. Ponies think a little different too---at least mine does.



  11. #1031
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    It is similar to just how different their prehensile lip is, too. Extremely sensitive snoot and much more agile and 'smart' than that of the horse, and much stronger.



  12. #1032
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    I worked/rode/trained for a French trainer in Austin for a little while. He was from the Cadre Noir of Saumur. Before we all started to work, he sat us down and went through a list of books that he required us to own and read. I already had all of them and had read all of them.

    It was not a list of the most obscure books, but they covered everything if you read them and trained under a knowledgeable eye or eyes.



  13. #1033
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    Quote Originally Posted by BaroquePony View Post
    I worked/rode/trained for a French trainer in Austin for a little while. He was from the Cadre Noir of Saumur. Before we all started to work, he sat us down and went through a list of books that he required us to own and read. I already had all of them and had read all of them.

    It was not a list of the most obscure books, but they covered everything if you read them and trained under a knowledgeable eye or eyes.
    Would you share the list?



  14. #1034
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    Default I posted this on the other thread..

    By mistake..
    There is too much good info to be had.
    I gave up facebook to read constructive things back on COTH.
    Okay, I am trying to build my collection of classical Books By Baucher, etc.
    This thread is so long I cannot remember where the book list is.
    Could anyone post the names and titles that are a must read.
    Pretty please, I will do the hunting for the books. Thanks
    __________________
    "you can only ride the drama llama so hard before it decides to spit in your face." ?Caffeinated.



  15. #1035
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    ETA: my list was in reference to Stryder's request for the list I had.

    I can share part of the list (from memory and because I have duplicate copies of some in my studio where I am living at the moment) as the books are in storage at the moment, and so is the list.

    Alois Podhajsky, The Complete Training of Horse and Rider
    Brig. Gen. Harry D. Chamberlain, Training Hunters, Jumpers, and Hacks
    United States Pony Club, Manual of Horsemanship
    Wilhelm Museler, Riding Logic
    Bengt Lundquist, Practical Dressage Manual
    Xenophon, The Art of Horsemanship

    .... that is about two thirds of the orginal list.

    I believe he chose those books because they covered it all in one way or another and were all still in print. Also, they were in english and he was living in America.
    Last edited by BaroquePony; Oct. 26, 2012 at 02:02 PM.



  16. #1036
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    I love de Kunffy. Love watching him ride. He didn't like riders that didn't put their horses first. Very considerate of riders that were sincere, not so much with rich, spoiled riders who wouldn't listen. He was actually very hard on that sort ... as in, "You can leave the arena if you cannot listen and at least try".



  17. #1037
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    I think he is Hungarian. ?



  18. #1038
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    He is. My old trainer worked under him many years ago, and I heard some of his stories second hand from her. Though I don't recall details, I remember that he came from a horse breeding family, and all their horses were shot in the war--not unusual but very sad. Also that his riding masters, when he was young, would stand in the arena with a whip and if someone wasn't sitting in the correct position, they could snap the whip against their back in the precise place to make them sit up. And it hurt.

    Very very old school. Very philosophical and classical. No, there was nothing said about separation of hand and leg, etc. I think this may have been presumed, really. His books are the sort that won't mean too much until you already understand; he writes from a very theoretical view. I was baffled by them years ago. Now I go back and see so much more there, but I'm sure I'm still missing a lot.

    I remember odd little things, like, get on the horse and just let him walk wherever he wants to go on a loose rein for the first 15 minutes, this will tell you all about the horse that day. (LOL, whenever I try, this, my horses just walk back to the gate and stand there. )

    I think the man is probably a gold mine, rather overlooked, imo, and will be one of those losses that we can ill afford when he is gone.

    I haven't read this, but just saw that he's written an autobiography.



  19. #1039
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    Mar. 3, 2010
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    De La Gueriniere Ecole de Cavalerie.

    Add that to the list. I consider it to be invaluable.

    I lost all of my books with Katrina, some out of print and just outstanding. When I get a minute I will try to remember the names and or authors and list them.
    “Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.”
    ? Albert Einstein



  20. #1040
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    Quote Originally Posted by MelantheLLC View Post
    He is. My old trainer worked under him many years ago, and I heard some of his stories second hand from her. Though I don't recall details, I remember that he came from a horse breeding family, and all their horses were shot in the war--not unusual but very sad. Also that his riding masters, when he was young, would stand in the arena with a whip and if someone wasn't sitting in the correct position, they could snap the whip against their back in the precise place to make them sit up. And it hurt.

    Very very old school. Very philosophical and classical. No, there was nothing said about separation of hand and leg, etc. I think this may have been presumed, really. His books are the sort that won't mean too much until you already understand; he writes from a very theoretical view. I was baffled by them years ago. Now I go back and see so much more there, but I'm sure I'm still missing a lot.

    I remember odd little things, like, get on the horse and just let him walk wherever he wants to go on a loose rein for the first 15 minutes, this will tell you all about the horse that day. (LOL, whenever I try, this, my horses just walk back to the gate and stand there. )

    I think the man is probably a gold mine, rather overlooked, imo, and will be one of those losses that we can ill afford when he is gone.

    I haven't read this, but just saw that he's written an autobiography.
    Mr. de Kunffy is truly a gem and anyone who is a hard worker, good listener and trys will benefit greatly from his books and teahings.



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