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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by re-runs View Post
    " And on third day, they`re on the payroll." Tom Dorrance

    Tom was speaking about ranch horses that are pulled off the range, or out of the pasture and started in three days. They are on the "payroll" on the third day because they have been given the proper basics, taking in mind the nature of the horse. If a horse is not defensive, then life is pretty simple.

    Tom understood the teachings of Baucher and the French school, not so much scholastically but, he understood how this type of approach was accepted by the horse. If you go to any of Tom`s students clinics, you will feel an aura of the French school.

    We can only draw from what we know and our experiences.......the trick is.....to widen those storages that we can call upon.
    My storages are pretty wide. Ray Hunt was one of my favorite clinicians, although he'd bridle at that term

    "Make the right thing easy and the wrong thing difficult. Very simple to understand, but not so easy to do." Nothing French or German or western or english about that.
    __________________________
    "... if you think i'm MAD, today, of all days,
    the best day in ten years,
    you are SORELY MISTAKEN, MY LITTLE ANCHOVY."


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  2. #82
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    "Make the right thing easy and the wrong thing difficult. Very simple to understand, but not so easy to do." Nothing French or German or western or "english" about that. "



    "observe, remember, compare"
    Ray Hunt



  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by inspired View Post
    I didn't think this thread was for people that do or don't compete. Did I miss something?
    It was started as a spin-off from another thread, "Who else doesn't compete?"



  4. #84
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    ok,i am not sure you can compare a ranch horse 3 days under saddle with a horse that has been worked systematically for a number of years (the masters could bring a horse up to the highest level is 3 years) ....

    while it is true that cowboys would need to ride their horses in 3 days - and soldiers in a short time frame too - (altho the books i have read on military training took longer than 3 days to bring a horse along - think a year )... the end result is NOT the same as a horse that learns "the airs" ....

    in the current book that i am reading by Decarpentry, he talks about how those two horses - a soldiers horse and a horse trained to the airs - are very different animals and need different training.

    i would hope this thread does not really try to equate a cowboys horse who has 3 days of training with a high school horse who has had years of it?



  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by SwampYankee View Post

    For the Connemara, what Jean-Claude would have done is called "lecon d'eperon" or "petit attacks" with the spurs. I'm not going to try to teach a riding lesson online--not fair to you or your horse. Read the theory and try it out! But I'll give you a little hint--a combination of both techniques used to be what we called, "Waking them up at the In-gate!"
    Surprisingly I learned this through Dutch instruction (competative). Also, the early piaffe work (before muscle although they were a LOT fitter than those horses).

    Those horse do not JUST look like they lack muscle, they dont even look just plain fit WTC. I know a four year old that is fitter.

    Early piaffe or passage can just be a few steps and spread out over training leaving it entirely off and on IMO. No need to teach the full movement (why would you?) before the horse is fit.

    You probably want to see the loin develope and some comfortable collection in all gaits (not a lot but around the arena without a mess) and then you can play with some things off and on.

    But these horses do not look even a few steps comfortable in regular collection so why go extreme and jump ship?
    ~~Member of the TB's Rule Clique ~~
    http://www.off-breed-dressage.blogspot.com/


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  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by SwampYankee View Post
    "Floppy reins," "looped," whatever you want to call them is only a momentary thing, done to check that you truly have self-carriage and the horse is holding himself in collection--it's a test, a proof. It's also when people tend to snap the bragging-rights picture.

    With regard to the original video someone posted of J-C R's clinics, please note that these were clinic horses of the most ordinary kind--in some cases, having their very first experience. "Backyardigans" like you and me! When you watch Henriquet, you are watching one of the best in the world now living; obviously, there's a difference there . . . as well there should be!

    ...
    Et alors?? translated: SO?? We can't achieve impulsion in our gaits with light contact AND a "descente de main" translated to "a giving of the hand" in some of our more collected movements on a backyardigans horse? The Henriquets do it everyday - I use to groom some of those backyardigans!!
    In Portugal with Don Jose d'Atyade we worked arabs, TB's, Cruzados, WB's, even a quarterhorse all with impulsion and lightness.
    Racinet NEVER sacrificed impulsion in his horse's movements. The walk was a march, the trot and canter from the hindquarters, the descente de main to prove the horse was working from his hind end - light up front and responsive to the riders seat.

    Tell me where is that in this first video? I can't see it anywhere - so maybe I'm missing something??



  7. #87
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    "while it is true that cowboys would need to ride their horses in 3 days - and soldiers in a short time frame too - (altho the books i have read on military training took longer than 3 days to bring a horse along - think a year )... the end result is NOT the same as a horse that learns "the airs" ....

    in the current book that i am reading by Decarpentry, he talks about how those two horses - a soldiers horse and a horse trained to the airs - are very different animals and need different training.

    i would hope this thread does not really try to equate a cowboys horse who has 3 days of training with a high school horse who has had years of it?"



    The basics should be the same.
    The basics should work with the nature of the horse.
    No matter what discipline, a horse is still a horse.
    The airs are already in the horse at birth. Some have more talent for them than others but, those movements come from nature.



  8. #88
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    Default OK people - shoot me now!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by mbm View Post
    ok, here is a practical question for folks.... my 4 yo is a Connemara pony - well tempered but shall we say he believes in conservation of energy - i was having a bit of trouble getting him to consistently be as forward as i want, and so took him to my trainers for some extra help (i am used to a more hotter type of horse is my excuse )

    anyway, we are making progress, but i would be very interested to hear what folks would suggest for such a horse? How would you create a happy, eager, willing and *forward* in mind and body equine out of one who is not - using the French system?
    I currently have a big hulking WB who was like this - I found a lovely competant person versed in the Clinton Anderson techniques. Now mind you I come out of the French school - but I was able to recognize that "in some cases" a horse is sluggish because it is a form of disrespect or resistance. EACH HORSE IS DIFFERENT - but this was the case for my WB. The Clinton Anderson exercises adapted to this horse, brought this horse into a world of respect, forwardness and brightened his attitude towards the work. It also solidified his bond with me on the ground as well as, more importantly to me, in the saddle. He is responsive to my leg and seat without hesitation... I can now fine tune this responsiveness with my in-hand work because he no longer freaks out with the use of the whip, instead he responds respectfully and immediately.

    You can marry different tachniques and pull others from your bag of tools if you remain true to lightness and impulsion as your goals.



  9. #89
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    Wink

    The cowboy's horse might have been on the payroll after three days, but that doesn't mean his education stopped there!!!

    That horse was still ridden daily with the understanding that everytime you ride you are training. Training doesn't happen only in the arena, this is a concept more people seem to need to learn!! The, "well I'm only trial riding, so he can do that" is counter productive.

    This is true in any "school".

    Personally I think any rider should be able to drop the reins and have the horse continue as before. This is what riding and training is about.
    Some riders change their horse, they change their saddle, they change their teacher; they never change themselves.



  10. #90
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    Videos for Alicen:

    Phillippe Karl w/young horse:

    http://youtu.be/8OgBfZhzm18

    Karl, short clips of various horses and students

    http://youtu.be/2ffdG9rV8k0

    Nuno, back in the day:

    http://youtu.be/TfiTTyi2He8 (mute the over dramatic soundtrack, interesting stuff starts about 3:30) Whatever one's personal preferences, it's very fair to say that Pluvinel and de G would recognize this "dressage" a lot sooner than they'd recognize what we commonly see today. Is it "french"? Some of the French say so, some say not.

    I think one thing the Nuno video makes clear is the practical goal of this style. This is dressage for working horses--ones that will be expected to save their rider's lives, and their own--the beauty is really a by-product of the fact that this horse could evade a bull or a bayonet on an instant because it is always in complete balance, all of its power collected and ready to go in any direction.

    While I think the idea that by the Renaissance at least, dressage moves were ever really used in battle is a bit unrealistic, I do think the concept was maintained among the aristocratic riders who liked to think of themselves as gentleman warriors. This idea of the handy working horse also came down through the vaquero and cowboy line too of course.

    Our modern competitive goals are completely different. I don't know if Edward could ride Totilas like that, in that small a space. Maybe so. But Toto is ridden for what it looks like to the observer. Nuno is riding for what the horse is expected to perform--his (oh lord how I wish I could ride like that) equitation is the means to the end.

    Sorry, getting a little philosophical here. Fun thread!



  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by mbm View Post
    ok, here is a practical question for folks.... my 4 yo is a Connemara pony - well tempered but shall we say he believes in conservation of energy - i was having a bit of trouble getting him to consistently be as forward as i want, and so took him to my trainers for some extra help (i am used to a more hotter type of horse is my excuse )
    After going through what I went through, I would send the horse to someone who is not afraid of letting the horse go, some hunter jumper trainers are great for that. This person needs to be able to confidently ask the horse to go, give the rein when the horse jumps out, ride through the bucks if it happens, and then just let the horse do his thing. She does not need to be mean, but need to be able to praise the horse like no one's business when he is forward, even though it looks ugly. Believe me, it will get better, much much better. Dressage trainers will not be my first choice, unless I know that person is bold and confident enough. And a trainer who discourages a horse to go into any faster gait because it is not perfect? I will stay very clear of him/her.

    And then, when you ride, make sure not to squeeze with your knees. Squeezing knees block the shoulders movement and lazy horses will just take that as a license to be lazy.



  12. #92
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    (BTW, Phillippe Karl jumps his horses while in training. He both rides and lunges them over jumps, there's a lovely sequence on his legerete dvd's where he talks about how its fun for the horse and they need to move out.)



  13. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gloria View Post
    After going through what I went through, I would send the horse to someone who is not afraid of letting the horse go, some hunter jumper trainers are great for that. This person needs to be able to confidently ask the horse to go, give the rein when the horse jumps out, ride through the bucks if it happens, and then just let the horse do his thing. She does not need to be mean, but need to be able to praise the horse like no one's business when he is forward, even though it looks ugly. Believe me, it will get better, much much better. Dressage trainers will not be my first choice, unless I know that person is bold and confident enough. And a trainer who discourages a horse to go into any faster gait because it is not perfect? I will stay very clear of him/her.

    And then, when you ride, make sure not to squeeze with your knees. Squeezing knees block the shoulders movement and lazy horses will just take that as a license to be lazy.
    IMO dressage trainers around here are the worst with babies. A good jumper trainer on average starts horses best for my taste. I learned to start horses from the track and by good jumper trainers. Just go. And with a super quiet horse, get out of the ring and wtc on a loose rein. Also jumping little jumps and logs forward on a loose rein.



  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by inspired View Post
    The horse should become muscled from the proper foundation in the training. Before achieving advanced levels of collection, the horse's strength should be developed over years of good transitions and gradual increases in the level of difficulty. By the time the horse is demonstrating more than a step or two of advanced collection, he should already physically look capable.
    I see your point. I'm responding in part to a disagreement I had with my trainer. She said "he's not strong enough to canter." I said "how will get get strong enough to canter without actually cantering?" Not talking about anything fancy--just a 20 meter circle!



  15. #95
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    Re: After going through what I went through, I would send the horse to someone who is not afraid of letting the horse go, some hunter jumper trainers are great for that. This person needs to be able to confidently ask the horse to go, give the rein when the horse jumps out, ride through the bucks if it happens, and then just let the horse do his thing. She does not need to be mean, but need to be able to praise the horse like no one's business when he is forward, even though it looks ugly. Believe me, it will get better, much much better. Dressage trainers will not be my first choice, unless I know that person is bold and confident enough. And a trainer who discourages a horse to go into any faster gait because it is not perfect? I will stay very clear of him/her.

    You are not kidding! The classical trainer whom I'd love to ride with but was bad for my horse had me convinced my good boy was a basket case and needed drugs. He's at a trainer now who barrel races as well as hunter/jumper/eventer stuff. he hacks out after every ride. He is exposed to all kinds of stuff.

    Paula
    He is total garbage! Quick! Hide him on my trailer (Petstorejunkie).



  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by mayhew View Post
    I see your point. I'm responding in part to a disagreement I had with my trainer. She said "he's not strong enough to canter." I said "how will get get strong enough to canter without actually cantering?" Not talking about anything fancy--just a 20 meter circle!
    Exactly. He will never be strong enough to have good canter if he does not canter. In the case of my youngster, it started from "he is not strong enough to canter," to quickly become, "he is not strong enough to trot," to, hell, he believes he cannot trot all together. How sad is that?

    It's not like you are asking him to canter forever - it's never a good idea to allow a horse just to canter out of balanced and learn that bad habit, but geesh, he needs to canter at least some to build that good canter muscle and feel the changes of his center of balance with a rider.

    Some people are so hung up by the ideal finished product that they are so scared of the ugly duckling stage that everyone needs to go through.



  17. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulaedwina View Post
    Re: After going through what I went through, I would send the horse to someone who is not afraid of letting the horse go, some hunter jumper trainers are great for that. This person needs to be able to confidently ask the horse to go, give the rein when the horse jumps out, ride through the bucks if it happens, and then just let the horse do his thing. She does not need to be mean, but need to be able to praise the horse like no one's business when he is forward, even though it looks ugly. Believe me, it will get better, much much better. Dressage trainers will not be my first choice, unless I know that person is bold and confident enough. And a trainer who discourages a horse to go into any faster gait because it is not perfect? I will stay very clear of him/her.

    You are not kidding! The classical trainer whom I'd love to ride with but was bad for my horse had me convinced my good boy was a basket case and needed drugs. He's at a trainer now who barrel races as well as hunter/jumper/eventer stuff. he hacks out after every ride. He is exposed to all kinds of stuff.

    Paula
    I hear a lot of this here (in the states). What is this? These trainers call themselves “classisists” but yet are not going to take the greenbean out in the arena or field and let him have a nice canter or a long and low trot for goodness sake?? This is part of a young one’s development.

    Get another trainer. After a greenie is backed, it really doesn't matter what kind of expert is on him as long as he/she goes forward! Let the greenie have some fun, run, jump just go forward!! Umm Next….



  18. #98
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    I think it's important to have the horse started by someone with enough confidence to let them move. The horse that's consistently shut down, will shut down. duh. But how does a horse gain the strength to canter? Lots of lateral work. Canter departs. I think it's far better to do a balanced canter depart, canter a few strides, then go back to the walk to rebalance and regroup, then depart again, than to simply keep cantering on the forehand or off-balance.

    Counted walk and piaffe are two more ways to build muscle without cantering. Walk/rein-back transitions is another one.
    Last edited by stryder; Sep. 6, 2012 at 02:05 PM.



  19. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by mayhew View Post
    I see your point. I'm responding in part to a disagreement I had with my trainer. She said "he's not strong enough to canter." I said "how will get get strong enough to canter without actually cantering?" Not talking about anything fancy--just a 20 meter circle!

    I can't speak to whether your trainer is right or not, but you certainly can build muscle without cantering.

    I had to ride my mare at the trot only for 6 months because she was so bad at the canter - think shopping cart with gum on one wheel. This was not a young horse. She was 16 years old and had gone "forward" lots and lots before this. She was just horribly crooked from a long rehab and then no riding. My bad.

    We trotted and trotted and trotted for ~6 months (and did chiro and acupuncture, too), before her canter was worth a darn. Six months after that, my little red Arabian mare looked like a GRP.

    Correct riding for a horse is like working out with weights for us. Do it right, and you can build muscle where you need it. No cantering needed.
    __________________________
    "... if you think i'm MAD, today, of all days,
    the best day in ten years,
    you are SORELY MISTAKEN, MY LITTLE ANCHOVY."



  20. #100

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    I have a question about French style dressage and contact, from the videos that have been posted it seems like the riders don't always have constant contact with the horse's mouth. Is this the case? I understand some of the people were using long reins to show off their horse remaining collected.

    With some of the heavier type horses I have ridden (QH and Draft crosses) I was encouraged to have a constant, strong feel of their mouth, like pushing them into my hands. Is the "release of the aids" (like SwampYankee was talking about in the first post) different?
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