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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by alicen View Post
    Well, people, find me something else.

    Like mbm said "nowadays, i rarely read theory now i want to SEE theory in action then i want to DO it myself.... "
    indeed. what i see in that is horses not properly muscled - and that tells me the entire story.

    and fwiw, this is EXACTLY why i no longer really have faith in what folks write or say - i want to SEE it.



  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by re-runs View Post
    Many threads on dressage training will sooner or later come around to focus on the topic of "forward", mainly because without forward movement not much can be accomplished.

    I come from a place where "forward" is a mental state of mind, not so much a physical occurance because if you don`t have a "forward thinking" horse, you will not really have forward OR any genuine throughness.

    When we do come from a place where "forward" or anything else we do with a horse is dependant on his mental state; mainly because any action starts in the brain, as a thought, then I think we understand horses a lot better.

    When we ask the horse to step under it`s body shadow with its hind leg, changes happen in the horses mental state, IF it is done correctly.
    very well said. teaching the horse to cross over with its hinds and give to pressure in its body is critical. the very act of crossing the hinds creates chewing and lifting of the sling muscles.... why i dont know - but it does



  3. #63
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    i want to say that it is possible to be in the middle so to speak - my trainer was trained by George Theodorescu and Gabby Grillo. As such he is german classical with some french tossed in for good measure. it seems to be a good mix and works well.

    For example: we do belive in forward first, but the horse is not allowed to dump on its forehand. We also use a lot of Leg yield in the beginning to teach the horse to cross over with its hinds to produce chewing, connection and bend/flexion.

    i have never seen my trainer do any kind of bit flexions.

    as for Klimke - she is PURE German classical system as is Uta Graf. Honestly -classical german is not what folks think



  4. #64
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    ok, here is a practical question for folks.... my 4 yo is a Connemara pony - well tempered but shall we say he believes in conservation of energy - i was having a bit of trouble getting him to consistently be as forward as i want, and so took him to my trainers for some extra help (i am used to a more hotter type of horse is my excuse )

    anyway, we are making progress, but i would be very interested to hear what folks would suggest for such a horse? How would you create a happy, eager, willing and *forward* in mind and body equine out of one who is not - using the French system?



  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by mbm View Post
    indeed. what i see in that is horses not properly muscled - and that tells me the entire story.

    and fwiw, this is EXACTLY why i no longer really have faith in what folks write or say - i want to SEE it.
    If they are not correctly muscled, then how better to get them muscled than have them do those very things you would like them muscled in?



  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by alicen View Post
    Well, people, find me something else.

    Like mbm said "nowadays, i rarely read theory now i want to SEE theory in action then i want to DO it myself.... "
    I spent a weekend once, at Racinet's place in Lexington, VA, many years ago.

    The man was amazing. I really wish I could have afforded the time and money to go down and learn more about his flexions, because I think there was a lot there to learn. I was sad when he died as the opportunity to learn from him directly was lost.

    He had my TB mare doing piaffe (he did get on her and ride) and she was really soft through the back. That mare really liked this school of training, but I'll say, I never learned how to take that slow, balance and turn it into a brilliant, forward ride that would get good scores at a dressage show, using the definitions of the movements, and it became very disheartening to hear how wonderful everything was in clinics with others who followed this style and then go get sub-50 scores in tests.

    I have his books, bought them from him there and he signed them. I suppose I should read them, I've started them, but never finished (which is how all my horse books seem to go).

    I really could see this melding well with the new Western Dressage style.


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  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by mayhew View Post
    If they are not correctly muscled, then how better to get them muscled than have them do those very things you would like them muscled in?
    perhaps. But since they are being used as "models" and examples of he work, you would think they would show a bit more condition and muscle - so if those are not the end result - what is?



  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by SaddleFitterVA View Post
    but I'll say, I never learned how to take that slow, balance and turn it into a brilliant, forward ride that would get good scores at a dressage show, using the definitions of the movements, and it became very disheartening to hear how wonderful everything was in clinics with others who followed this style and then go get sub-50 scores in tests.
    Did Racinet make any claims that totally following his training methods would make a competitive dressage horse?

    Maybe the Rolkurista brothers could add to the discussion?
    Last edited by alicen; Sep. 6, 2012 at 06:17 AM.



  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by mbm View Post
    perhaps. But since they are being used as "models" and examples of he work, you would think they would show a bit more condition and muscle - so if those are not the end result - what is?
    Oh no, the song "Show Me" is playing in my head and I loathe musicals.



  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by alicen View Post
    Did Racinet make any claims that totally following his training methods would make a competitive dressage horse?

    Maybe the Rolkurista brothers could add to the discussion?
    I was too naive to realize that there could be a difference, so would not have thought of asking, but I did understand that it was considered a waste of time to show anything under second level.

    And, most people taking lessons in this French school don't show. At least the ones I rode with.



  11. #71
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    http://www.cousyndressage.com/dressa...n-the-bit.html

    If you follow the link back, there are a few other short articles.

    http://www.cousyndressage.com/videos.html



  12. #72
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    Please don't turn another thread into an argument. The OP has been gracious enough to post so others can ask questions that genuinely want the answers. This thread was going great... I can feel the tide turning

    Keep in mind this started on a thread for those that DON'T compete.
    www.destinationconsensusequus.com
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  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by mbm View Post
    i want to say that it is possible to be in the middle so to speak - my trainer was trained by George Theodorescu and Gabby Grillo. As such he is german classical with some french tossed in for good measure. it seems to be a good mix and works well.

    For example: we do belive in forward first, but the horse is not allowed to dump on its forehand. We also use a lot of Leg yield in the beginning to teach the horse to cross over with its hinds to produce chewing, connection and bend/flexion.

    i have never seen my trainer do any kind of bit flexions.

    as for Klimke - she is PURE German classical system as is Uta Graf. Honestly -classical german is not what folks think
    I agree entirely, because the OLD German classical was based in the theory of the Frenchman la Guerinere. When I think "German classical" today I'm thinking of the Spanish Riding School in Vienna and many of the German Olympic riders pre-1960. They cannot be faulted. What we think of as the Germanic riding today is the modern show-ring training which has become the default--not the same kind of horsemanship at all!
    Last edited by SwampYankee; Sep. 6, 2012 at 09:31 AM.



  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by mayhew View Post
    If they are not correctly muscled, then how better to get them muscled than have them do those very things you would like them muscled in?
    The horse should become muscled from the proper foundation in the training. Before achieving advanced levels of collection, the horse's strength should be developed over years of good transitions and gradual increases in the level of difficulty. By the time the horse is demonstrating more than a step or two of advanced collection, he should already physically look capable.

    Petstorejunkie,
    I didn't think this thread was for people that do or don't compete. Did I miss something?



  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by mbm View Post
    ok, here is a practical question for folks.... my 4 yo is a Connemara pony - well tempered but shall we say he believes in conservation of energy - i was having a bit of trouble getting him to consistently be as forward as i want, and so took him to my trainers for some extra help (i am used to a more hotter type of horse is my excuse )

    anyway, we are making progress, but i would be very interested to hear what folks would suggest for such a horse? How would you create a happy, eager, willing and *forward* in mind and body equine out of one who is not - using the French system?
    To you and the person above who spoke of the technical aspects of "effet d'ensemble"--you need to get hold of some good French School theory books and read them. As I've said, Another Horsemanship is probably the most accessible.

    Effet d'ensemble delves into the theoretical and mechanical differences between Baucher's "premiere" and "deuxieme" maniere--halfway through his life he changed his methods--a lot! That is beyond the scope of this thread but is germane to your inquiry. Yes, in some (limited) circumstances the effet d'ensemble is used, but a little bit differently than you describe.

    For the Connemara, what Jean-Claude would have done is called "lecon d'eperon" or "petit attacks" with the spurs. I'm not going to try to teach a riding lesson online--not fair to you or your horse. Read the theory and try it out! But I'll give you a little hint--a combination of both techniques used to be what we called, "Waking them up at the In-gate!"



  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by alicen View Post
    Did Racinet make any claims that totally following his training methods would make a competitive dressage horse?

    Maybe the Rolkurista brothers could add to the discussion?
    No. He considered the entire world of competiton dressage an aberration from the manege riding of the classical masters, said it was based on a different kind of balance for a different kind of horse, and never claimed that he was preparing you for the kind of elasticity (which is mostly about producing huge lengthenings) that today gets high scores.

    Look at the horses that win--tests are won today in the breeding shed. Don't have a WB with big amplitude? Why bother, unless you like tests for participation value only. Anything else has to be five times as good to get half the score. The only exception to this is in the Eventing world where I eventually wound up for exactly this reason.

    The dressage of the old masters, still practiced today in enclaves in Portugal, Spain, France, and under the few Cadre Noir trained professionals teaching in Europe and America today, was never intended to produce that "look," and was never in historical times used with that kind of horse (modern WB). It is equitation for THE REST OF US, the ones with QH, TB, Arab, Morgan, mixes. The ones who aren't going to be "competitive" no matter what we do. What Jean-Claude's riding is FOR is to be able to enjoy training your horse to do some or all of the High School, while keeping him an enjoyable and willing companion. Oh, and you'll need a lot fewer hock injections!


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  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by inspired View Post
    The horse should become muscled from the proper foundation in the training. Before achieving advanced levels of collection, the horse's strength should be developed over years of good transitions and gradual increases in the level of difficulty. By the time the horse is demonstrating more than a step or two of advanced collection, he should already physically look capable.

    Petstorejunkie,
    I didn't think this thread was for people that do or don't compete. Did I miss something?
    Is that so? Then tell me this: How do reining trainers put advanced collection, indeed movements that would in dressage be considered upper-level indeed, on 3-year olds?

    It's a matter of whether collection or extension comes naturally to the horse, and what their temperament and sensitivity is which method you want to choose. For my money I'd rather be riding a horse who's light on the aids and not fighting gravity from Day One. This is a mental thing, not a physical one, it's just a matter of how you "get them broke," if I may use an archaism here.

    The cowboy, the soldier, the bullfighter don't have 10 or 12 years of plodding around to make up a horse they can use right now--the cowboy needs to rope, the soldier to use his lance, the bullfighter likewise; and none of them could ever have done it on a forehand-heavy Hanoverian water-skiiing on both reins. Which is why 150 years ago, WB's were mounts for the rank-and-file troopers, who were issued giant shank bits and giant spurs to ride them with RIGHT NOW.

    BTW, if the progressive muscling over all those years, etc., is really better for the horse, why is everybody and their brother injecting joints on these horses, not to mention chiro, acupuncture, shock-wave and massage? Seems to me this system of expecting the horse to work in a COMPRESSED, not willingly collected, frame is causing a lot of pain and wear and tear. Eh?



  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by SwampYankee View Post
    Is that so? Then tell me this: How do reining trainers put advanced collection, indeed movements that would in dressage be considered upper-level indeed, on 3-year olds?
    They don't. The power in well-trained reining horses certainly comes from the hindquarters, but the work they do does not require the same degree of collection called for in upper level dressage horses. But I'm sure you know that.

    BTW, if the progressive muscling over all those years, etc., is really better for the horse, why is everybody and their brother injecting joints on these horses, not to mention chiro, acupuncture, shock-wave and massage? Seems to me this system of expecting the horse to work in a COMPRESSED, not willingly collected, frame is causing a lot of pain and wear and tear.
    A lot of top level reiners are getting their hocks injected, chiro, acupuncture, etc etc etc at age 5. But I'm sure you know that, too.
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  19. #79
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    Wonderful discussion! Thanks for starting it. And you are so correct saying that it is "old home week" to those who understand what a bridled horse (western) truly is and how it got to be that way. Different equipment to achieve the same results.

    Looking forward to perusing and learning a lot!

    Carol
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  20. #80
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    " And on third day, they`re on the payroll." Tom Dorrance

    Tom was speaking about ranch horses that are pulled off the range, or out of the pasture and started in three days. They are on the "payroll" on the third day because they have been given the proper basics, taking in mind the nature of the horse. If a horse is not defensive, then life is pretty simple.

    Tom understood the teachings of Baucher and the French school, not so much scholastically but, he understood how this type of approach was accepted by the horse. If you go to any of Tom`s students clinics, you will feel an aura of the French school.

    We can only draw from what we know and our experiences.......the trick is.....to widen those storages that we can call upon.

    I had exposure to Baucher at an early age, learning from a famous circus rider and I call upon those stored up movies in my head ALL the time even though I had to endorse the German way of training to compete.
    Last edited by re-runs; Sep. 6, 2012 at 10:20 AM. Reason: clarify



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