[BaroquePony]

wedge shaped pony head

be nice

[mbm]

^^^ do you know that the only way you can tell my pony is a pony is his pony head and pony ears? lol!

[goodpony]

GP - fwiw when you lift the bit towards the ears, the horse is supposed to push down into it. so he may be giving you the reaction he is supposed to......

It takes a moment but he does eventually get over his bad self. He is one that thrives on routine and has never liked anyone messing with his head--hes not head shy or anything like that--he loves to have his head groomed and his ears scratched--anything that needs doing to his head--but does not overmuch enjoy anyone just fiddling with his face--and I think mainly its just his "normal" reaction. He is easy to bridle--not a problem. I tended to skip the in hand flexions on days where he shows good mouth activity just on his own--which he does do especially if we are well into the work week. We've been off our regularly scheduled program due to weather.

And he does have a more wedge shaped head, broad between the eyes and a more flat that dishy/convex profile--but it is shorter than average from muzzle to poll--not horse headed at all. He wears a Cob bridle with Pony cheeks and Horse brow band--so it is a wedge! I only thought to mention and have no personal experience with it but have been told that there is a tendency for this type a head to become locked in the jaw.

[stryder]

GP - fwiw when you lift the bit towards the ears, the horse is supposed to push down into it. so he may be giving you the reaction he is supposed to......

I disagree. When I raise my hand, I am expecting the horse to raise, either its head or the base of the neck and begin to lift the neck from its cradle. I do not ever expect the horse to push into my hand. The horse should savor the bit, not lean into it. I expect her to follow my hand, whether my hand goes up, forward or down.

[BaroquePony]

stryder, mbm, I think you are discussing two different things.

[stryder]

I'm not sure which specific flexion mbm is describing, but I am certain I don't expect the horse to push against the bit and my hand.

[goodpony]

Its not what my guy is doing anyway. And for all intent and purpose I do not think my approach is incorrect to begin with-as I seem to be getting actual results. While the flexions in hand might be considered delicate/sensitive - its not exactly brain surgery.

[mbm]

i wasn't trying to say you were doing it incorrectly - I am sorry it came across that way. So i apologize.

As for pushing down into the bit - i could be completely wrong, i am not a french school person at all , but that is the response i get when i lift the bit with both rings towards the horses ears (you can do it in hand or mounted ) it is also the response i get (and i see others get and also have read in the theory) when mounted and lifting both hands up - the horse will "push" down/lower the head. You can see this in PKs work and others - but i dont have time right now to find vids....

sorry no time gotta run to work...

[ideayoda]

The horse is NOT supposed to push down into the hand initially (that comes after high/light, light lateral flexion, more longitudinal flexion, and THEN chewing fdo, but neither does the handler hold the lifting per se. That said, the horse must be able to telescope properly when put to a proper balance, but they are only AFTER a MOBILE JAW. If the horse is a pony then why would you be lifting the hands over your head? (sorry I dont understand). And the lifting if rather vibrational, so the horse cannot toss its head. Think you are lifting the mouth to the point of the hips but more like you are vibrationally pulling the bit apart (wider). Because you are vibrating the horse cannot protest, because it is really an argument between your two hands (widening the bit) there is no protesting. I dont know why this head shape should be any different, and the wide jaw is a really good thing. And bad weather is a great chance to go into the stall, bridle the horse, mobilize the jaw only by lifting, perhaps a smidge of lateral flexion while high/light/mobile (w/o any longitudinal flexion), then removing the bridle, feeding the horse, leaving.

[mbm]

The horse is NOT supposed to push down into the hand initially

so when you did this to my mare a few years back what were you looking for? and why was she praised for pushing down into the bit when you lifted both bit rings towards her ears when you were standing in front of her?

[alicen]

While the flexions in hand might be considered delicate/sensitive - its not exactly brain surgery.

I tried them on a horse today and he responded in the positive way described on this thread and as shown in videos. When done he looked at me as if to say, "That's it? OK, whatever."

[goodpony]

I just want to report that I had significantly better initial acceptance of the standing flexions today--I do think the bit was too low and perhaps at least partially responsible for his reactions. Those French made bridles you know--made from very fine soft leather that tends to stretch .

I might be wrong about the "brain surgery" part as they do seem to do something very positive to his way of going--allowing me to ride better free from resistances.

No worries MBM I didn't think you were--people just sometimes seem to 'assume' things. I mean after all we are still dealing with a living breathing creature with a mind of its own. Just his way of telling me "would you fix that!"

[goodpony]

I dont know why this head shape should be any different, and the wide jaw is a really good thing. And bad weather is a great chance to go into the stall, bridle the horse, mobilize the jaw only by lifting, perhaps a smidge of lateral flexion while high/light/mobile (w/o any longitudinal flexion), then removing the bridle, feeding the horse, leaving.

It has more to do with the teeth--Native Breeds tend to have this shape head to accommodate very large 'ribbon candy' type teeth which are adapted to foraging on rough herbage. It may also be true of other breeds. I do not have any direct experience with this--but have been warned that this type of head does lend itself to getting locked in the jaw. It means very little other than something that people should be aware of.

I worked my pony in hand on his days off--it seemed to engage his mind and we enjoyed our time together.

[ideayoda]

....why was she praised for pushing down into the bit when you lifted both bit rings towards her ears when you were standing in front of her?

First the chews, thennnn they seek fdo. Seeking the hand follows from mobilization (and more esp lateral flexibility).

[mbm]

ok, so, after they open the mouth/chew they will press down into the bit when using a direct upwards/towards the ears lift , yes?

my point was - a pressing into the bit *might* be one of the responses we look for.....

[mbm]

It has more to do with the teeth--Native Breeds tend to have this shape head to accommodate very large 'ribbon candy' type teeth which are adapted to foraging on rough herbage. It may also be true of other breeds. I do not have any direct experience with this--but have been warned that this type of head does lend itself to getting locked in the jaw. It means very little other than something that people should be aware of. .

FWIW, i think i agree... the other day my pony - who definitely has pony cheeks (and pony ears!) had a piece of carrot that i guess he was trying to not waste.... he had it locked tight in his back teeth and normally he is pretty good about being supple in the jaw - but not that day! he was locked up tight!

so bad that trainer had me open his mouth and look around and finally when that didnt help - we dropped the bit completely and let him let go/chew/eat his little morsel that he was so desperately trying not to loose

once he ate that carrot piece he was back to his normal self.

it was actually pretty educational - for one i will never feed carrot or any hard non dissolvable thing during riding.

[goodpony]

First the chews, thennnn they seek fdo. Seeking the hand follows from mobilization (and more esp lateral flexibility).

I had this happen somewhat unexpectedly today. I just went with it and was able to take his head FDO while keeping lite contact/mobile mouth. I was very pleased with that result since we are still new to this stuff.

[goodpony]

FWIW, i think i agree... the other day my pony - who definitely has pony cheeks (and pony ears!) had a piece of carrot that i guess he was trying to not waste.... he had it locked tight in his back teeth and normally he is pretty good about being supple in the jaw - but not that day! he was locked up tight!

so bad that trainer had me open his mouth and look around and finally when that didnt help - we dropped the bit completely and let him let go/chew/eat his little morsel that he was so desperately trying not to loose

once he ate that carrot piece he was back to his normal self.

it was actually pretty educational - for one i will never feed carrot or any hard non dissolvable thing during riding.

that would have scared me! The dentist (the best one I ever had) explained that those 'ribbon candy' ridges/valleys if they are high and deep enough (more typical in youngsters) can actually become temporarily locked together (ive never actually seen it)--just something to be aware of.

[mbm]

he just didnt want to lose that piece of carrot..... it's actually pretty funny if you think about it .....

i have never heard of them being able to literally lock their jaws....

[mbm]

btw here is kind of what i am talking about... in the first part of this vid - you can clearly see PK riding with a high hand - to act on the corners of the mouth and the horse going FDO and "pushing" into the bit.

if this is not what he is looking for - what is?

does my comment make more sense now?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9Uek...50D3284CEF0107