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  1. #1201
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isabeau Z Solace View Post
    This whole 'relax the jaw' concept has been where I see these concepts go off the rails, haywire, bonkers most spectacularly. People with crappy, grinding, entirely unaware seats go sawing away on the bit non stop. I never advise anyone who is unaware of their seat usage to use any kind of advanced rein aids.
    But the in-hand work is done from the ground - the point is both horse and rider learn the correct feel without the complication of a rider's seat. And why would anyone (even a beginner) be "sawing" using these methods - that would go against every principle? I think these are great methods to teach someone how to ride with minimal dependency on their hand which will encourage the development of an independent seat.


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  2. #1202
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    regarding releasing the jaw - this is also done in the german system - altho not really called that - but for any horse to work well they have to be unconstrained ... the french seem to use flexions for it while germans system tends to use school figures and impulsion.
    BOTH schools traditionally used both standing (lateral) flexion as well as flexing in motion. That said the 1896 french cavalry manual showed them much more in depth.
    I.D.E.A. yoda



  3. #1203
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    Bump a bump.
    “Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.”
    ? Albert Einstein



  4. #1204
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    OK I'll post it here and stick with this thread to continue the conversation. I think it is absolutely true that (in general) the Germans/Dutch/Danish are breeding towards their type of dressage> Just look at this vid from another thread called: SEZUAN new RECORD

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7a8-...=results_video

    The classisists (German, French, Portugese, Americans, etc...)
    tend, in general not in all cases, to work with which ever animal they have. Or some lean more towards the baroque because that may be more their cup of tea.

    Catherine Henriquet is one I know who starts and teaches all her young WB's from the classical book - discussion already had in the Spinoff thread.

    Uta Graf, another, who deploys many classical techniques in her training.

    Bothe ride in numerous FEI comps but they compromise during the comp for the sake of gaining points. Do they sell themselves? Yes. Should they? Yes cuz, chasing comps is too darned expensive not to.

    Philippe Karl and his protegees - on the other hand - accept all types and I mean all types of horses in thier lightness clinics. Examples:

    PK's Canada clinic earlier this year:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=r2rAwgxq3Ts

    Betrand Ravoux's Cadbury Farm clinic (Pacific Northwest) Attn; this is a public FB link:
    http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?s...1785788&type=1

    Nicole Weinage's Pennsylvania clinic in Sept:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ymv2I...layer_embedded


    Ravoux and PK have accepted even more western riders (who practise classical equitation) into their Santa Fe clinic upcoming 2013. I'm auditing and will blog about it on this thread with the greatest pleasure.


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  5. #1205
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    re: trainers taking any and all -

    well my trainer graciously and with only a bit of an askance look - took me and my 4 yo Not-Bred-For-Dressage Connemara tank-o and has wrought what i consider to be miracles - on the lunge the pony looks like a proper riding pony - and while we still are not quite there under saddle - i see/feel moments where i know it is only a matter of time. <and here i want to jump up and down in excitement!>

    it is *fascinating* process to be a part of and i honestly am in love with the entire process!

    I honestly cant wait to see how pony looks in a year or two or 10!

    i dont think i would be this smitten if i was going thru this with a fancier horse... but with him it really shows what can be accomplished....

    when he isn't using his body well he is on the forehand, short/choppy strided, dropped withers/etc.... when he works correctly he literally looks like a fancy dressage pony.....



  6. #1206
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    Quote Originally Posted by mbm View Post
    re: trainers taking any and all -

    well my trainer graciously and with only a bit of an askance look - took me and my 4 yo Not-Bred-For-Dressage Connemara tank-o and has wrought what i consider to be miracles - on the lunge the pony looks like a proper riding pony - and while we still are not quite there under saddle - i see/feel moments where i know it is only a matter of time. <and here i want to jump up and down in excitement!>

    it is *fascinating* process to be a part of and i honestly am in love with the entire process!

    I honestly cant wait to see how pony looks in a year or two or 10!
    ...
    I agree and know only too well. With my throw away, failure of a BWP jumper, I'm accomplishing great things with harmony, balance and most of all contentment on the part of my horse. His brutal past is far behind him and he actually whinnies when my trainer and I come to take him out of his stall for a work session. He also now offers his head and mouth open for the bridle to be slipped on!!! Nice and I too can't wait another year to see what will come!



  7. #1207
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    Quote Originally Posted by mbm View Post
    it is *fascinating* process to be a part of and i honestly am in love with the entire process!

    I honestly cant wait to see how pony looks in a year or two or 10!

    i dont think i would be this smitten if i was going thru this with a fancier horse... but with him it really shows what can be accomplished....

    when he isn't using his body well he is on the forehand, short/choppy strided, dropped withers/etc.... when he works correctly he literally looks like a fancy dressage pony.....
    I don't think I've ever said congrats on the progress you've been making and are so excited about. So congratulations!


    As for the rest - one of my requirements in picking a trainer was finding one whose students' horses have improved gaits over time. Some aren't so dedicated or whatever, but there are many trainers around whose students do really well for two or three levels, then suddenly the horse "can't do the next level" and becomes super disobedient, etc., and gaits have never improved. Well, yeah, that's because you're not riding correctly by any stretch of the imagination or in any school.


    I didn't know a horse's gaits could improve like my TB's gaits have. He looks every bit the fancy warmblood as far as movement now with suspension and cadence, but it comes from correctly working on developing his body. It's fun for me because he started off never having learned not to tuck his nose toward his chest post-track. We made him come up and open, and I ignored the "you MUST have contact from the start!" folks who would have had me pulling him into a frame at all times.

    I definitely got looks for riding him like this:
    http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4091/5...9ca3071da4.jpg
    You can see he's still not straight there, but at least starting to figure out lifting the chest some and use his hind end - he didn't track up at the trot when I got him. And we need not discuss the right hand which haunts me as it keeps trying to migrate to my knee.

    http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7167/6...5191a7eb02.jpg
    http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7024/6...29b63fd15f.jpg
    http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7029/6...895d22c6eb.jpg

    He looks a lot more "fancy" now, but there's still a long way to go - and he's still developing his body and strength. (Plus his rider is still trying to learn how to really ride!) I feel for the folks who don't realize that every horse can develop nicely and improve a lot. And I look forward to seeing how my naturally nice moving TK filly develops under my trainer's guidance as I work with her - she's a nicer mover than my TB naturally, so as we develop and improve her way of going she should be REALLY fun!
    My horse is a dressage diva so I don't have to be.

    Quote Originally Posted by katarine
    If you have a fat gay horse that likes Parelli, you're really screwed



  8. #1208
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    yea, NetG- you get it. itis mind blowing and why anyone would want to do otherwise is beyond me.... its like Christmas every day.... i am so happy right now thinking about it i want to jump up and down....

    my pony may not be a fancy pony and he may not do well at T or 1st level - but just wait.... when it comes to work that is canter and collected he will shine -0 i feel it in my bones and his canter is already really nice.



    btw here he is the day he turned 4

    https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...5&l=3c0651e5ea

    and here he is the first month after we started full time work with my trainer.... notice that pony is 14.3 -15h and my trainer is like 5'11" (pony is not quite 4.5 here)

    https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...5&l=f0c281a13e



  9. #1209
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    Quote Originally Posted by ideayoda View Post
    BOTH schools traditionally used both standing (lateral) flexion as well as flexing in motion. That said the 1896 french cavalry manual showed them much more in depth.
    This is a short example of how I do flexions. More a release at the poll and a bit of the jaw. I used to try the jaw flexions from the ground as in (I think Froissard's "Education of Horse and Rider") but it just seemed to bother the horses. This seems to "loosen" him up (a former star grazer).

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIV0MObTMWI



  10. #1210
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    Quote Originally Posted by CFFarm View Post
    This is a short example of how I do flexions. More a release at the poll and a bit of the jaw. I used to try the jaw flexions from the ground as in (I think Froissard's "Education of Horse and Rider") but it just seemed to bother the horses. This seems to "loosen" him up (a former star grazer).

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIV0MObTMWI
    While this may work for your horse CCF and I don't doubt it does - it is only a tip of the iceberg of flexions. You are also flexing more that the pole but including the neck slightly as well. Thus if you really feel it your horse is actually putting a little weight on each shoulder as you turn his head ever so slightly.
    Study the Lateral Flexions at the neck again in the Froissard book. They are easier done on foot as you can really see the result.
    If you don't ask for too much your horse should not get annoyed. I mean only an inch at first. Believe me when I first introduced the flexions to my guy he was pissed off. But doing them only very slightly at first allowed him to habituate and to supple and now he accepts them in good humor.



  11. #1211
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    Thanks Belgian. Yeah, I do the "crest flip" type flexons too and will have to try the "on ground" ones again too now that he is more trusting of the hand.



  12. #1212
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    Quote Originally Posted by CFFarm View Post
    Thanks Belgian. Yeah, I do the "crest flip" type flexons too and will have to try the "on ground" ones again too now that he is more trusting of the hand.
    I have to tell you also - to get my big, formerly abused, untrusting guy to cooperate with the introduction of the flexions at first, I gave him little treats as he did each one.
    Then of course, he started nipping then biting me so I had to stop that pretty quick but if did "break the ice" in his case and helped him "want" to learn them.
    Now he does them great and gets a big pet on his neck and complement in my voice. He then knows he's done OK and waits for the next flexion.

    Everything I introduce to him is difficult for him and a big deal until he "gets it" then he relaxes and does it fine !



  13. #1213
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    The flipping of the crest should only need millimeters of change (and are created by merely tilting the inside thumb over). They should not immediately lead to (more) longitudinal flexion, or to too quickly allow fdo.It should NOT entail bending of the neck nor waiting of the outside shoulder, this means proper flexion is being lost/and balance as well.The poll (occipital lobe) remains the highest point, flexion laterally should be at the atlas/axis.

    (Progressive) greater lateral flexion are done more in the front/forward vertebrae as well, not allowing more longitudinal flexion, and also keeping the balance w/o shifting it onto the outer shoulder (which would also lose the support of the hind legs).)

    Flexions should not irritate the horse. If this is the case, ask why? Are the aids too strong? THe bit acting on the bars? Aid held too long? Most horses do them immediately and easily. The more difficult aspect is that the horse has leaned onto the hand too long or too strongly, and that changing balance needs to be learned
    I.D.E.A. yoda



  14. #1214
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    Ah yoda, of course you are right. If only this horse was "most horses".



  15. #1215
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    Then why not do the flexions in hand first? Never seen a horse which could not do that.
    I.D.E.A. yoda



  16. #1216
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    CFF my horse doesn't love the flexions in hand so much either--can get quite rude with his head about it--no matter how gentle my approach. Once we get past the initial objections he does get better. But I will say he has NEVER liked anyone to mess much with his head (other than gentle grooming/clipping/bridling)--its just not his thing and never has been. What can I say he has opinions. I am persistent and do reward/release the instant I see him release/relax his jaw. I just received the PK (twisted) book which also shows the flexions--with better photos I think than the one that we recommended earlier in this thread. We will keep working at it--but for now Im finding the ridden flexions/stepping over exercises easier to perform. They really worked like magic today to get him into both reins---maybe we were just 'ready' for this stuff. We will continue to work with the flexions for now. I did just have to adjust his bridle up a hole and he seemed so much happier--will be interested to see how he feels about the flexions in hand after this tiny tack adjustment.



  17. #1217
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    CFF my horse doesn't love the flexions in hand so much either--can get quite rude with his head about it....
    I cannot imagine why this is so and I do many very problematic horses (I clinic for six weeks at a time all over the country.

    How does the horse 'protest'? Rude how? (Rooting? or?) Which flexions? Did you start with 'merely' tasting the bit/mobilizing the jaw by lifting? Most of the time I see the horse 'protest' (lateral flexions) it is because horse is too low/closed and the bit is acting backwards/on the jaw rather than lifing the bit into the corner of the lips for the lateral flexion.

    Most people think the ridden flexions are easier, but remember the longer the reins the move leverage the rider has....good news/bad news.
    I.D.E.A. yoda



  18. #1218
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    Quote Originally Posted by ideayoda View Post
    Most people think the ridden flexions are easier, but remember the longer the reins the move leverage the rider has....good news/bad news.
    I think the standing flexions are much easier from the saddle, both because the view is better (easier to see both sides/head tipping, etc.), and because I don't have to lift up over my head. And because they're easier from the saddle I feel like I can do them more effectively.



  19. #1219
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    Quote Originally Posted by ideayoda View Post
    How does the horse 'protest'? Rude how? (Rooting? or?) Which flexions? Did you start with 'merely' tasting the bit/mobilizing the jaw by lifting?
    Yes, this is the one I start with just lifting the bit-he will toss his head around or shove--not so much root. I seem to have less trouble with the lateral flexions in hand. Like I mentioned I raised his bit yesterday by one hole (it needed to be done)--he seemed to appreciate the adjustment so we will see if it makes any difference in doing the flexions in hand.

    Im not willing to give up on the In Hand Flexions and think its just a matter of time before he accepts them as part of our routine. He is a pony, and they do seem to have more opinions. He does have a very typical for his breed wedge shaped pony head, dinner plate cheeks and is thicker through the throat latch--though so far at the level we are at none of these structural things appear to be an issue. He is making steady progress and the flexions have been remarkably useful for me.

    Thanks for the tip on the ridden flexions--good to know.



  20. #1220
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    GP - fwiw when you lift the bit towards the ears, the horse is supposed to push down into it. so he may be giving you the reaction he is supposed to......

    oh and editing to say - again fwiw, when i do lateral flexions i find it needs to be tiny amounts to get the results i want..... even with ponykins.



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