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  1. #41
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    Dec. 13, 1999
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    Quote Originally Posted by vacation1 View Post
    I'm all for gun control. In theory, I support the idea that people should have access to guns to ensure the government never gets too uppity, but in practice, everyone I've ever known who had guns was a cop or an asshole. Sometimes both.
    I know plenty of assholes who have cars - should cars be banned? You can run people over with them, run through their houses, run over their pets and through their pastures.

    Honestly, guns are not the problem. People are the problem.

    This isn't even about the government! This is about law-abiding citizens needing to protect themselves against criminals. I know there is somewhere a statistic (which is likely low) that shows the number of crimes (of all sorts, not just gun-originated) because a normal citizen had and pulled (or used) a gun against the criminal. It's not an insignificant number either.
    ______________________________
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET



  2. #42
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    Sep. 18, 2000
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    Tatertown, KY, USA
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    I'm in favor of "reasonable" gun control. Unfortunately, defining "reasonable" can get really sticky. I've seen suggestions, here and elsewhere, about controlling ammunition instead of guns. I don't like this idea, for a couple of reasons. For one thing, I think it's a crude evasion of the 2nd amendment. "We won't restrict your right to bear arms, we'll just make it prohibitively expensive to load them". Also, I think that as long as people are toting weapons, we'd all be better off if they're reasonably competent at using them. I'd like to see a requirement that people with concealed-carry licenses have to pass a marksmanship every few years to renew their permit. Making ammunition so expensive that people can't afford practicing at a range to maintain their skill is not good. I know a lot of gun-carriers probably won't practice enough anyway, but there's no sense making it unaffordable for those who want to.

    Here's an article that provides some interesting thought on the topic of reasonable gun control:

    http://www.addictinginfo.org/2012/08...s-the-problem/

    A fight against the right of Americans to own guns is one that almost certainly can never be won. But a concerted effort to make gun ownership safer by enacting and strengthening common sense efforts to protect public safety through, for example, closing the gun show loophole and banning bullet clips that hold 100 shells, can and must be won if we want to reduce gun violence in the US.



  3. #43
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    Jan. 4, 2007
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    TX
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    That is already a requirement here when you renew your Concealed Gun License.

    You have to pass parts of the test again and shooting is one.
    They don't want to give a license to someone that just kept the gun in a drawer those years without proper practice.

    You also have to be tested on the general laws and any new law that has come forth since your last licensing test.



  4. #44
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    Sep. 7, 2009
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    Lexington, KY
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guilherme View Post
    What do you mean by "gun control?" If you mean the safe, efficient, effective handling of firearms then I'm all for it.

    If you mean unreasonable restrictions on ownership, carry, and self-defense use then I'll likely be against it.

    The Devil, as usual, is in the details.

    G.
    Exactly. Gun law reform doesn't mean "take all the guns away" to most of us. It means better instruction, licensing and some common sense when someone starts stocking up on guns and ammunition. I also think you should have a license to buy ammunition. They could use a tracking system like Kentucky has for controlled substances. That way, someone like the Aurora shooter might have been stopped before anyone was shot.

    You want a concealed carry permit? I have no problem with that, but I sure as heck want to know you know how, when and where to use it.
    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~Immanuel Kant



  5. #45
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    Dec. 13, 1999
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    Greensboro, NC
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    Quote Originally Posted by LauraKY View Post
    Actually, according to the experts, not having a gun doesn't stop suicide attempts, but it most certainly makes the attempt less likely to succeed. As in fewer deaths.
    Ok, so, of those "fewer deaths", how much is the % reduced, and how many result in the person being seriously impaired? Cost of hospital stays, mental health counseling? Pills are a pretty good way to kill yourself - are there stats on how many people commit suicide by OD?

    You don't go around fixing a relatively small problem by imposing broad-spectrum control in cases like this. You end up punishing the good because of some idiots.

    I don't mean this to sound like I'm callous about suicide or that if you want to off yourself, by all means go ahead. A very good friend in high school killed herself. With a gun no less. It sure doesn't make me want to ban guns. The issue was in her head and the gun was just the handiest way to deal with it, unfortunately.
    ______________________________
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET



  6. #46
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    Dec. 13, 1999
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    Quote Originally Posted by LauraKY View Post
    Exactly. Gun law reform doesn't mean "take all the guns away" to most of us. It means better instruction, licensing and some common sense when someone starts stocking up on guns and ammunition. I also think you should have a license to buy ammunition. They could use a tracking system like Kentucky has for controlled substances. That way, someone like the Aurora shooter might have been stopped before anyone was shot.

    You want a concealed carry permit? I have no problem with that, but I sure as heck want to know you know how, when and where to use it.
    I'm all for that. Here, to get a CCL you have to pass a shooting test (which, granted, isn't very stringent, but it's a test based on the most common proximity of a potential criminal, which is fairly close), take a course, apply with the Sheriff's office, and wait while they check everything from a variety of mental health institutes (and not just here in NC), to police records to DMV records and your Drs. I don't know yet what the renewal procedure is if you renew before it expires, but if you wait 1 day too late, you are treated as if you've never had one.

    Track high-quantity ammo purchases? Sure! Get registered if you're a competitive shooter who goes through a couple thousand rounds a week.

    I actually don't like that you don't even have to have a permit to buy a rifle - I'd prefer a permit for ALL gun purchases.
    ______________________________
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET



  7. #47
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    Sep. 18, 2000
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    Tatertown, KY, USA
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    Quote Originally Posted by LauraKY View Post
    I also think you should have a license to buy ammunition. They could use a tracking system like Kentucky has for controlled substances. That way, someone like the Aurora shooter might have been stopped before anyone was shot.
    This sounds like a good idea, but I'm not sure it would be effective in practice. It might have been possible to raise red flags when the Aurora shooter bought thousands of rounds in a short interval. But he could have done just as much damage with only a few hundred rounds, and if there had been a tracking system, he probably would have been careful to stay within the limits. And any limit that's low enough to prevent a mass shooting is going to get triggered by every gun enthusiast who stocks up for a weekend of target practice.



  8. #48
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    Feb. 25, 2012
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    Montana
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    The NRA is the only organization that effectively does stand up for gun rights agains those who would remove them from law abiding citizens. That does not mean that its members support each and every policy but in general, the NRA does seek to preserve gun rights in the face of numerous incursion threats sold as "reasonable" (usually by people who do not know much about firearms). Back ground checks are required to purchase a firearm from any federally licensed firearms dealer. Violent felons do not get firearms (legally, and the NRA supports prosecuting those who buy them illegally for a felong), AND to get a concealed carry permit in most states you DO have to prove competence! It would be fabulous to have a CC permit that was accepted everywhere, instead of having to figure out which state you are in, whether or not there is reciprocity with your state, and so forth! I would very much support that. The NRA also supports restricting adjudicated mental patients from owning guns, (closing the Hinckley loophole).

    And yes, the NRA supports zero tolerance gun free schools. The NRA offers the best education programs out there on gun safety! My husband, an NRA instructor, teaches the NRA introl to handguns course and it is excellent (and fun!). Come on out Adamant!!

    As I said, not every member supports all its policies but no organization works harder at protecting our constitutional gun rights.



  9. #49
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    Feb. 25, 2012
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    Montana
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    JB, you are correct about suicides.
    There are many risk factors for suicides and access to firearms is one.

    So, taking care that suicidal folks (the ones we know who come in) are not around firearms is a good idea (and one any basically competent mental healthworker would check for)

    But denying law abiding citizens their constitutional rights does NOT follow from that. People die in cars (and commit suicide with them as well). They commit suicide with medication but we do not remove all medication from everyone, obviously!!



  10. #50
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    Jul. 19, 2007
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    Michigan
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    Quote Originally Posted by KBC View Post
    Me to.

    My background, born and raised in the UK, where guns are few, and you have to have a good reason for owning one. I now live in Canada and I like the system we have here.
    I absolutely oppose any system requiring ME to prove that I NEED a gun, as opposed to the licensing authority having to prove that I shouldn't. That inevitably leads to abuse of local, state, and federal authority. In Massachusetts, this meant I would have needed a firearms ID card (the easiest level to get, but I refused on principle) to buy pepper spray or mace. Each level of application (to carry an unloaded shotgun locked in a case with ammunition in a separate locked case subject to search on up) got harder and had to be personally approved by local police, who could arbitrarily decide you didn't really NEED any of these levels. Gun owner forums would actually post lists of cities where you shouldn't even bother applying for a pepper-spray card because the police chief just denies all requests. I lived in a "marginal" neighborhood (having grown up near Detroit, where I wouldn't go unarmed now, and gone to school in DC, where there are neighborhoods a single white girl just doesn't go into alone period, I wasn't worried, but some people worried about my walking alone after dark) but it was in a town where I would have been turned down for any licensing stage, because the police chief didn't like issuing them. Now, as my brother's boss (who commutes home with a train-bus transfer in Harlem and whose wife grew up there) notes about NYC, where you can't get any sort of self-defence legally, there's no law against just happening to have bought oven cleaner or wasp killer, so there are ways (ironically more dangerous and lethal than pepper spray) around it, but when you give a licensing authority arbitrary powers based on what THEY think YOU need, you wind up with them refusing more often than granting. (Never mind the entire slave mentality of allowing government to make those decisions about anything...personally, I'm not an infant and don't need to be told if I NEED a weapon, what kind of health coverage to buy, or that when I get a mortgage I have to pay it back.)

    In Boston, we had a name for the city's laws about self-defence weapons, from pepper spray on up: "Call 911 and Die." I vastly prefer Michigan's rules--I can buy a rifle or a shotgun if I want one, I can get an open-carry handgun with a minimum of fuss and a concealed permit with only a bit more (there are ranges that specialize in running the classes required for the permit and you can get the hours in one day and have a permit in five.) Contrary to popular belief, legally acquiring a full automatic weapon (actual "assault weapons") is extremely difficult to do LEGALLY. There's lots of paperwork and both state and federal laws involved, even for collectors buying older weapons.



  11. #51
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    Dec. 31, 2000
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    El Paso, TX
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    I'd almost prefer that every household be required to have one trained, licenced gun owner.



  12. #52
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    Nov. 4, 2003
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    Sanger, TX, USA
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    Any one been following the massive amounts of ammunition being bought by
    the Federal goverment for the Department of Homeland Security, Wildlife folks, and even the Social Security department? And it is all hollow point ammunition (which does the most damage to a person and is not permitted
    for military war fare). Target practice doesn't cover the need....hollow point is more expensive than target type rounds.
    http://dailycaller.com/2012/08/17/wh...tend-to-shoot/



  13. #53
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    Mar. 25, 2011
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    Canada
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    Quote Originally Posted by danceronice View Post
    I absolutely oppose any system requiring ME to prove that I NEED a gun
    When I lived in the UK it wasn't an issue, I kind of wanted a gun, but didn't need one.

    As I say I like the Canadian system, prove that you are reasonably sane and sensible and you get a licence to purchase and own weapons. A discussion on another board led to this being posted...


    Or… in the case of where I live…
    Um, I decide I want a gun. (Not going to say why…. I just do.
    So, I drive down to the local store that has what I want (8 minutes away) look all the pretty guns, chat with the employees, fiddle with this one and that one… ask questions (because I’m playing ignorant) like which gun is best for what use. I mean, I may need to shoot a bear, moose, or a raging bull with it someday!

    The employees are only too happy to make recommendations, brag on the powers of certain guns over other ones, and swap gun stories while I jot down the required personal info on a piece of paper, all of which I can lie about with the exception of my ID. Because of course we know that NO ONE ever uses a false ID. ()

    While said employees fax whatever paper to wherever it goes, I pick out a pretty case for said gun of my choice, several boxes of ammo, wait… they are having a big sale on ammo plus rebate coupons!! Oh happy day…. I grab 10 boxes!
    Ding ding, papers are back and I’m all set to go. Employee carries said gun to the front of the store (policy thing) I pay for purchase, take said weapon into my hands plus my bag of goodies and walk out of the store.
    It was far too easy.

    After I leave I can sell it to whomever I wish, or in the case of this particular area, it will most likely get stolen within a few years.
    Which I find very scary
    I'm not sure if I grew out of stupid or ran out of brave.

    Practicing Member of the Not too Klassy for Boxed Wine Clique



  14. #54
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    Mar. 22, 2007
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    Bremo Bluff, Virginia
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    Perhaps we should just outlaw murder, robbery, and rape.

    Until we can enforce the laws we already have, there should be not consideration of taking away a person's right to protect themselves. Until the economy improves to where we don't have skyrocketing food prices, I want my ability to hunt.

    I personally feel education is a better route than restriction. Think about it. What's scarier: A trainer who has been in the business 20 years riding a young stallion, or a guy who saw a movie, thought horses looked neat, and bought a stallion from a CL ad?
    "In the beginning, the universe was created. This made a lot of people angry and has widely been considered as a bad move." -Douglas Adams



  15. #55
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    Aug. 25, 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by vacation1 View Post
    I'm all for gun control. In theory, I support the idea that people should have access to guns to ensure the government never gets too uppity, but in practice, everyone I've ever known who had guns was a cop or an asshole. Sometimes both.
    Perhaps you should look for a better class of friends.

    Better still, go to a Cowboy Mounted Shoot. You'll meet lots of horse types who will be "armed to the teeth" but are generally nice people. Might give you a better chance to expand you clearly limited circle of friends.

    You demonstrate clearly that the problem is not the instrumentality but the hand that wields it.

    G.
    Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão



  16. #56
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    Jul. 22, 2012
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    CA
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guilherme View Post
    You demonstrate clearly that the problem is not the instrumentality but the hand that wields it.

    G.
    You're right. That's true. But the problem is that people who shouldn't have guns are able to access them. I would rather they be greatly restricted than the current situation. You're right, guns don't kill people, people with guns frequently do!

    We have by far the highest number of guns per household in the world, and our gun violence soars above everybody else's. Is gun control in other countries perfect? No. But their day-to-day gun violence is much, much lower. The mass shootings are tragic, but are also caused by more than just gun ownership. It is evidence of a failure of the mental health system, of the support infrastructure needed. The same issue here. Mass shootings are a complex issue that requires complex solutions (except banning civilian ownership of assault rifles. that's pretty simple.). Daily gun violence, on the other hand, is not.

    And I'm sorry, but citizen gun ownership will not protect us from a government that has nuclear weapons.



  17. #57
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    Jun. 9, 2006
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    Grand Junction, CO
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    Quote Originally Posted by KBC View Post

    As I say I like the Canadian system, prove that you are reasonably sane and sensible and you get a licence to purchase and own weapons.
    I have my non-restricted and restricted PAL, and I certainly agree with the Canadian system. I do wish that a part of the instruction had been how to safely SHOOT a gun. It was all very good on the how-not-to-shoot part, but what happens when a brand new gun owner decides to try the gun out for the first time?



  18. #58
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    Mar. 24, 2004
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    Pottstown, PA (East Coventry)
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    I think there should be some control mostly through education. You need to take a safety course, have training and shoot the "class" of gun that you are going to buy, back round check (criminal and mental health). I like the waiting period. I would like to see the gun show loophole closed.
    I do think there should be limits on owning guns that have the ability to rapid fire large quantities of bullets quickly.

    I don't think the first time somebody should be thinking of firing a gun should be at a person for self defense.

    When DH's co-worker's husband died her adult kids thought she needed protection. They bought and gave her a really pretty pearl handled gun and it was loaded. Nobody taught her to load/unload the gun or fire it.
    She had a young teenage son and decided having a loaded gun around the house was probably not the brightest thing. So she climbed up on her kitchen table and hid it in the drop ceiling.
    Fast forward 6 years, she is having the kitchen renovated when the workers find the loaded gun that she had forgotten about. She returned it to her kids. To me it was safer in her ceiling than in her bedside table. She had no business owning a gun since she did not know how to use it, had never experienced using it, did not know how to load/unload it and had no safe place to lock it up.

    My step-grandfather decided he needed a gun to keep him safe. So he bought a shotgun and had it loaded in the bedroom closet, where my grandmother kept her hats and wigs that me and my cousins would play with. We had been playing in there for about 2 hours before he remembered the gun was there. To say my parents and uncles were not amused was an understatement.
    Ironically about 1 year later the house was robbed while they were on vacation. He forgot to have the newspaper stopped so was pretty much advertising nobody was home. The thieves stole the gun. So much for that gun protecting him and his property. Instead he just armed a criminal. Mind you he had never fired the gun and had the store clerk load it. Gun safety was a foreign concept to him.

    In both of these cases gun education would have gone a long way.
    Oh, well, clearly you're not thoroughly indoctrinated to COTH yet, because finger pointing and drawing conclusions are the cornerstones of this great online community. (Tidy Rabbit)



  19. #59
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    Dec. 4, 2005
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    washington state
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    As a single female who lives alone I'd rather be the "asshole with a gun" should any buffoon decide to see how he fares trying anything illegal at my residence I like my .22 but I am pretty decent with a 9 mm or a .38 if I need to use a handgun.
    The Knotted Pony

    Proud and upstanding member of the Snort and Blow Clique.



  20. #60
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    Sep. 7, 2009
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    Lexington, KY
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    My father had guns, picked up a couple during the race riots in the 60's. My parents retired to a retirement village and, one night, my father heard a burglar in their cottage. Luckily for my mother, the gun jammed. She was getting a drink of water in the kitchen. True story, my Mom called me the next morning and asked me to come pick up all the guns.
    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~Immanuel Kant



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