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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Nov. 12, 2007
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    Wylie, Texas
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    270

    Default Newbie question about leads after fences...

    Forgive me if this is a really ignorant question, but I've been out of H/J's for a LOONNNNNG time now (Eventing instead)! Wanting to give some of the lower level Hunter shows a try (schooling/B shows) in addition to AQHA shows. We can do the jumper classes but I want to try some hunters as well!

    So my question is this - now, I realize AQHA Hunters are VERY different from USEF - but, I was watching some AQHA Hunters from last year's world show and couldn't figure out if it's better to a) always land on the correct lead or b) get a nice flying change in the corner. It seems the horses that were consistently pinned were always showing off some lovely clean changes. (Obviously) but I was wondering if there's a preference? Do you keep going on the lead you went in to the fence on, or is it ok to ask for the lead over the fence? Or does it just depend on the horse/rider?

    Again, sorry for the newb question. This is a whole new world to me that we're looking forward to getting to know!

    Ooh, one more question. I was reading the 2012 "trends" thread a moment ago. Aside from not jumping in a black dressage coat <grin> is there anything else I'd need? Are plain navy blue jackets ok??

    Thanks!!



  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jul. 22, 2012
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    CA
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    804

    Default

    I've always been taught that landing on the right lead = better than a flying change, but a flying change isn't necessarily a bad thing. Either way, I always work on landing correctly right off the fence.

    And I've shown in a navy blue coat my entire life and never had any problems, afaik they're still perfectly acceptable



  3. #3
    Join Date
    Feb. 14, 2008
    Posts
    326

    Default

    Landing on the lead is best, however asking for the lead over a fence can negatively change the shape of the horse's jump so people tend to avoid it.

    A clean flying change after the jump will not be penalized as long as it isn't late.



  4. #4
    Join Date
    Sep. 24, 2006
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    970

    Default

    Agree that landing on the lead is best, while making it look at effortless as possible.



  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jan. 30, 2009
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    Default

    Landing on the "correct" lead is not any better than a well executed lead change.

    There is no correct lead when landing on a straight line.



  6. #6
    Join Date
    Apr. 28, 2005
    Location
    Chicago
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    1,786

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by AmmyByNature View Post
    Landing on the "correct" lead is not any better than a well executed lead change.

    There is no correct lead when landing on a straight line.
    Agreed!
    ~ Citizens for a Kinder, Gentler COTH...our mantra: Be nice. ~



  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jul. 22, 2012
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    CA
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by AmmyByNature View Post
    Landing on the "correct" lead is not any better than a well executed lead change.

    There is no correct lead when landing on a straight line.
    I would argue that being on the correct lead coming into a turn looks smoother than a flying change into the turn.

    It's true though that a well executed lead change won't be penalized. It all comes down to personal preference and ability.



  8. #8
    Join Date
    Dec. 22, 2000
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    NY
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    14,881

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by AmmyByNature View Post
    Landing on the "correct" lead is not any better than a well executed lead change.

    There is no correct lead when landing on a straight line.
    +1.

    And a navy jacket never goes out of style.



  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jan. 27, 2003
    Location
    CA
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    10,658

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by AmmyByNature View Post
    Landing on the "correct" lead is not any better than a well executed lead change.

    There is no correct lead when landing on a straight line.
    This. Many people think landing the lead is better. It's not...and can be worse.

    Quote Originally Posted by big_red_ottb View Post
    I would argue that being on the correct lead coming into a turn looks smoother than a flying change into the turn.
    .
    Aflying change should be complete before you start the turn.
    Keith: "Now...let's do something normal fathers and daughters do."
    Veronica: "Buy me a pony?"



  10. #10
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    Jul. 22, 2012
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    CA
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    Quote Originally Posted by RugBug View Post
    Aflying change should be complete before you start the turn.
    I can understand how what I said could be misconstrued, but the point remains the same.

    Either way, you should be able to do both. It seems to me there are an equal number of ways to botch a flying change as there are to botch landing on the correct lead. So do whatever you're comfortable with.



  11. #11
    Join Date
    Sep. 21, 2000
    Location
    Pawlet, VT US
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by RugBug View Post
    This. Many people think landing the lead is better. It's not...and can be worse.
    How could it be worse?

    (I know I'm a geezer, but having to do a flying change used to mean that you royally screwed up. especially in handy's or eq.)
    madeline
    * What you release is what you teach * Don't be distracted by unwanted behavior* Whoever waits the longest is the teacher. Van Hargis



  12. #12
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    Jan. 30, 2009
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    Default

    It can be worse because you are -- by definition -- affecting your horse's natural jump by asking for a lead over the fence.

    Sure, in a handy course or an eq course (or the jumpers, of course) it may be more important to land on a specific lead due to whatever question is coming up, like a roll back or a broken line or to shave a fraction of a second off of your time.

    But on a regular jump set on a straight line, there is no advantage to trying to land on a specific lead and because you are influencing the jumping effort, you may actually be damaging the jump.

    I had a horse with a sticky change one direction, so in that direction I did try to get him to land on the lead because there was a 15%-20% chance that we would miss the change anyway. It was worth degrading the effort of the jump because the flying change was not a certainty. The other direction, though, I let his jump alone so that he would jump as well as he could.

    My new horse has a spectacular lead change so I don't have to mess around with her jump because I'm worried about the change. I can allow her to jump as well as she can and complete her effort without interference from me.

    So that's how landing on the lead can be bad.



  13. #13
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    Aug. 28, 2012
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    Default

    Always better to land on the correct lead vs. asking for a change afterward. However, as said above, if you ask with loud cues for the correct lead, it can make your horse twist or bend in mid air, which will score you lower. I always cue for the lead a 1/2 stride from our jump, just as we're thinking of taking off. That way, my horse can jump straight, but I'm not asking her to change bend in mid air, she just knows which lead she has to come down on. The front legs and back legs both come together over a fence, a horse should have no problem taking either lead coming down.

    If you don't get the correct lead coming off a fence, a smooth change won't be penalized as long as it is well before the turn. Making a flying change into the turn can be penalized as a late change.

    The most important thing in hunter classes is making it look smooth and effortless. A horse that lands correctly every time, but bends in midair to accomplish that will score lower than a horse that lands wrong but does a smooth flying change 3 - 4 strides after the fence.



  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jun. 17, 2001
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    down the road from bar.ka
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    Asking a stride out from the base can result in a last second swap at the base and a big deduction. Don't forget if they do land on the "correct" lead, most of them have a tendency to lean in and try to cut the corner

    If a rider is anything except near Pro quality as a rider jumping a hundred fences a week minimum? It's usually a better choice to just let the horse jump and change on a straight line after landing and before the corner.

    Unless the rider can pull that change over the fence off perfectly smooth and the horse can stay square and straight from landing to the corner, more can go wrong then right for the average rider trying to ask over the fence. Swaps at the base, crooked over the top, awkward jump because horsey needed to be on his strong side off a long spot but rider wanted to set up a change off the ground.

    Besides that...after they have been to a few shows, they KNOW where they are going next and often land on that lead (if the rider gets them to a good spot anyway). Really not something to worry about, concentrate on a good spot to a good jump for a good score. Because it does not matter at all as long as you do get the correct lead before you go around that corner.
    When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

    The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.



  15. #15
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    Sep. 21, 2000
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    Pawlet, VT US
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by AmmyByNature View Post
    It can be worse because you are -- by definition -- affecting your horse's natural jump by asking for a lead over the fence.


    But on a regular jump set on a straight line, there is no advantage to trying to land on a specific lead and because you are influencing the jumping effort, you may actually be damaging the jump.
    If you're damaging the jump by asking for the lead, you probably need to work on the jump itself. And making sure you aren't doing something funky to screw it up.
    madeline
    * What you release is what you teach * Don't be distracted by unwanted behavior* Whoever waits the longest is the teacher. Van Hargis



  16. #16
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    Jun. 17, 2001
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    down the road from bar.ka
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    Quote Originally Posted by Madeline View Post
    If you're damaging the jump by asking for the lead, you probably need to work on the jump itself. And making sure you aren't doing something funky to screw it up.
    And many more recreational riders at the schooling show level like OP is asking about who are new to Hunters and/or don't jump everyday do risk damaging the jump itself and giving themselves more to worry about. For something that really is not going to add anything to the score but risks creating a deduction for a funky jump.

    And, OP, the blue jacket has never gone out of style and niether has a white shirt.
    When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

    The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.



  17. #17
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    Jan. 30, 2009
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    This is getting ridiculous.

    Look, when a judge tells me that she pins landing on the lead over a nice, normal, undramatic lead change I'll start caring.

    I have never ever heard from any judge that there is any benefit at all to landing on the lead as opposed to getting the change (except in cases that we've already discussed), and there is always a chance, ever so slight, that asking over the fence will -- even infinitesimally -- alter your horses jump.

    I don't know what the expectation was 30 years ago, but ever since I've been showing there's been no difference between landing the lead and doing a change. I'm surprised that a lead change back in the day meant you had "done something wrong" but that is obviously not the case today, or there wouldn't be lead changes happening in derbies, high performance classes, working hunters, first and second year greens, and trainers would work on teaching riders to get the lead over fences and not about how to get a change.

    Since none of this is so, I can only assume that the paradigm has shifted and lead changes are no longer the indication of a mistake. When someone (like a judge) tells me otherwise, or someone who misses a distance but lands on the leads beats me I'll sing a different tune. But until then, I'll continue to let my horse jump straight and true and randomly land on whichever lead she wants to. Then we will canter away from the fence, swap our leads quietly and without drama, and continue cantering through the corner and get on with our lives.



  18. #18
    Join Date
    Nov. 12, 2007
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    Wylie, Texas
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    Y'all have been extremely helpful... thank you!

    I suppose I should have clarified my statement about the "correct" lead - realizing there is no correct lead on a straight line meaning instead preparing for the inevitable turn ahead one direction or the other!

    Thanks again. And glad to know my navy coat is still a go!!



  19. #19
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    Jun. 17, 2001
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    down the road from bar.ka
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    I remember watching AA shows more then 30 years ago (way more actually, think Lucy Tipton on the great Showdown and Anne K, Suzy H and Cece Durante on Junior Hunters at 3'6") and some changed leads after landing and some landed on the lead, did not seem to make any difference.

    I can only speak to riding Hunters for the last 19 years and none of my trainers made a big deal out of it...unless it was a roll back off a decent sized fence on an Eq or Handy course. Which I was taught and expected to execute properly over the fence. No mention of it in regular Hunters.
    When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

    The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.



  20. #20
    Join Date
    Nov. 12, 2007
    Location
    Wylie, Texas
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    Ok another fashion question. I just stopped working at a very large tack & apparel company and I have ONE LAST SHOP to get my staff discount. I have two bridles to return so I've got a bit of $$ to spend

    I was thinking of buying this coat: http://www.doversaddlery.com/grand-p...at/p/X1-40635/

    I live in TX and my wool coat is SO HOT, was thinking this would be nice for stadium jumping when I event... but is it ok in the hunter ring? (Keep in mind - lower level shows)

    I'm not ready to invest in Monacos or anything like that - my Ariat Hertiage boots will have to do just fine. But assuming Field boots are ok for just about everything (I don't see any formal classes in my future, but AQHA does have a Derby <modified> now... assuming one wears dress boots with a shad??)

    I wear a CO JR8 helmet. Was thinking maybe getting a vented helmet instead... but I HATE the way the GPA's fit me. Any others? The Samshield is really, really nice... and has a removable lining for washing (great for TX summers) but wasn't sure if it is acceptable show attire:
    http://www.doversaddlery.com/samshie...i2zv45limqwo45
    Is anything other than black ok? (Ie navy?)

    Lastly, I'm assuming my figure 8 bridle is a no-go (even at schooling?) Is a flash bridle ok or does everyone wear just a straight cavesson?

    Sorry for all the questions ladies, thanks for your help!!!



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