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  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunridge1 View Post
    Freedom for what? Over horsed breeding assholes?

    Hell I can list a ton of things I like to do that are now against the law. Guess some idiot passed laws that I don't like. Big whoop. The nature of modern America.
    If you were to not talk (or type) for a second and give this a little more thought...

    Ok, a little hint:

    Some idiot does not like what you are doing. Right this very second.
    It might be currently perfectly legal, but if this idiot gets his/her way you will no longer be able to do so.

    it does not really matter much what it is.

    be it breeding horses, cooking beets on Sunday or driving a truck.


    You are getting it now?
    Quote Originally Posted by fargaloo View Post
    Do you not understand how asking "why now?" is EXACTLY part of the reason why assault victims feel silenced?



  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fairfax View Post
    Very few COTH posters have witnessed the equine killing floor first hand. Very few have volunteered to oversee or become involved.

    I have...until a couple of months ago I went to Fort MacLeod every Wednesday for TWO YEARS.

    Many things have changed since the U.S. videos were alleged to have been taken

    The one with the 11 shots...I would have to say either absolute incompetence OR most likely, as killing floors are moniored by a camera and tape that goes to the office (and did in most U.S. plants)...was probably a PAID FOR DELIBERATE BAD KILL.

    Majors areas of concern have been transportation and they continue to be monitored. The number of injured horses in transport have decreased two fold due to stringent application of current laws for hauling horses commercially.

    The chutes have been reconfigured in the Canadian plants to be more versatile in securing large horses to smaller size

    There is never going to be 100 per cent anything when it comes to killing, operating on, making i.e. cars...perfection is to be worked towards but is usually not attainable.

    The plant does selective kills where individuals have booked an appointment to take their horse (alpaca, goats etc) in.

    In hind sight..I think we should have shipped the ranch horses to slaughter..however during the turn of the century forward, it was standard that the old horses were turned out during the winter...feed was available..however if they went down...they froze to death...or coyotes...predators brought them down...after watching the video of the wild mare eaten while still alive..and her foal dragged out of her...slaughter is a walk in the park...the screaming will haunt me for the rest of my days
    THe referenced videos were from Canadian slaughterhouses in the last 2 yrs, one a TG designed, state of the art facility....next...



  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alagirl
    It's loaded with chemicals....
    well, you ain't eating it, what does it matter to you?
    Quote Originally Posted by Alagirl View Post
    THINK ABOUT THE CHILDREN....



    covered...


    Do you eat horse meat?
    No? What does it matter to you?
    Quote Originally Posted by Alagirl View Post
    Ok, a little hint:

    Some idiot does not like what you are doing. Right this very second.
    It might be currently perfectly legal, but if this idiot gets his/her way you will no longer be able to do so.

    You are getting it now?
    sigh*....unfortunately we will always have to make laws.
    You are a much bigger part of it than any activist.

    Regardless, we raise animals intended for food differently than we do horses. The food chain is not a legitimate dump for our unwanted horses. We may get away with it for a few more years, but it's going to end via demand in the relatively near future.



  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetsmom View Post
    You know, I find some things very one sided...

    The anti slaughter side can post videos that show 2 days of continuous footage from horse slaughter plants, that have been forensically analyzed and found to be unedited that show horrendous abuse/miss rate, one horse hit 11 times with a Captive Bolt gun, a miss rate of 40% one day and 60% another, and the pro slaughter side will blow them off, and claim "labor dispute" on the first set, and stay silent on the 2nd set. And one of those was in a TG designed state of the art facility.

    There are interviews posted of TG stating that horse slaughter cannot be made humane due to cost, and the SH unwillingness to absorb that cost. She also stated that as soon as she leaves a plant all kinds of abuses and violations happen. (It's on video as well.)

    Yet we're told by the pro slaughter side that her statement was taken out of context, yet no proof of her ever saying it was taken out of context can be found. We are just supposed to believe the poster.

    We have 906 pages from the USDA of humane violations that occured at a SH here in the US during an 11 month period, yet supposedly we do it better than any one else.

    We have court records of transport violations from Baker, that detail horrific abuses, and yet , somehow, it is glossed over. (The fine is still unpaid, by the way, and he is still operating).

    Yet Wayne Pacelle said years ago his stmt about heirloom cattle "one generation and out" and people will try to say that he was talking about all domestic animals. When told that they are using his stmt out of context, they say "no, it doesn't matter", In spite of him having a written explanation on his webpage. And yet no one can link to any video or audio of him stating that he was talking about domestic animals.

    So who is really providing facts, versus trying to spread propaganda?
    I really can't believe that, after all this time reading on COTH, you still can defend WP and the HSUS with a straight face, knowing all you should know now about them.
    Worse, you say you are not one of their followers?
    If it walks like a duck ... etc.

    You keep bringing animal rights propaganda, yes that is all that is, right out of their websites, propaganda that has been explained to you time and again "it ain't so!" and why and expect anyone to keep listening?

    Try to keep in mind just one fact, if nothing else, that abuse is something that happens when you have abusers, in everything in life, but that is not the way normal people conduct themselves.
    That abuse is something no one wants in any place and there are regulations and supervision to avoid that.
    That abuse will still happen, yes, as TG said, when abusers have an opportunity, that is what abusers do.

    That doesn't mean life or any one we do in life, just because someone with an agenda can prove "hey, look, there is/was abuse there!", abuse is all there is.

    I hope that makes all this a bit more clear for you, why we consider animal propaganda as you present immaterial to the topic at hand, other than a side issue, that is addressed thru other than the animal rights push to ban anything where they can prove any abuse happened.

    There is so much more to what is going on and I guarantee you that horses may be abused is not at all other than animal rights propaganda for their many other goals.
    They themselves don't really care about animals, if you read about them you will figure that quickly.
    Their propaganda, that you keep bringing up here, is just one more angle they have to convince gullible people, that don't think thru what the real situation is, to follow them as you seem to do.

    Until you understand that, I guess we will just have to keep trying to explain this to you, again and again.

    With all the new animal rights activity lately, I expect they are, like any other non-profit, using the last months of the year, prime donation time, to get themselves out there and convince as many as they can to donate to them.
    Hey, that is their job and it means job security for them.
    How do you think they have become one of the richest non-profits, with millions in assets and millions in donations to play with and, guess what, find causes of the moment that they can make even more millions with.
    Too bad they picked eliminating animal uses and that is what we do, have animals we use for all kinds of purposes, including slaughtering them, like we do our horses.
    Horse slaughter, by the nature of slaughter, is just an easy target for them, the low hanging fruit and so a perfect target to attack for their agendas.



  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rbow View Post
    sigh*....unfortunately we will always have to make laws.
    You are a much bigger part of it than any activist.

    Regardless, we raise animals intended for food differently than we do horses. The food chain is not a legitimate dump for our unwanted horses. We may get away with it for a few more years, but it's going to end via demand in the relatively near future.
    Well, it is not about dumping ground, it is about wisely using our natural, renewable resources.

    Why waste all that a dead horse is, just because some make it one more of their causes of the moment, as a way to become one of the largest business they can make their non-profits?

    Because we can, that's why.
    We are not starving and can let others tell us what we can use or waste.
    To me, it seems a bit simple minded to fall for that.



  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rbow View Post
    sigh*....unfortunately we will always have to make laws.
    You are a much bigger part of it than any activist.
    Yes, we will always have to make laws.
    We should be on the lookout and fight bad ones though, in all aspects of life. We have allowed too many of those through as it is being guided by emotions, not intellect.

    Regardless, we raise animals intended for food differently than we do horses. The food chain is not a legitimate dump for our unwanted horses. We may get away with it for a few more years, but it's going to end via demand in the relatively near future.

    YOU might raise your horses differently.
    But not everybody does.
    Just browse the forum when well meaning people wonder if horses are abused because they don't have more wardrobe changes than Madonna or don't get their daily smartpack boost.

    We are still one of the richest nations on this planet, in one of the largest countries. We can afford to be wasteful.

    But there are other aspects that might put a damper on our ability to do so.

    BTW, there are pockets of demand in the country. The lack of supply creates a gray zone Southern Florida has to deal with. And the population segment associated with the demand is not getting smaller...
    Quote Originally Posted by fargaloo View Post
    Do you not understand how asking "why now?" is EXACTLY part of the reason why assault victims feel silenced?



  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post
    Well, it is not about dumping ground, it is about wisely using our natural, renewable resources.

    Why waste all that a dead horse is, just because some make it one more of their causes of the moment, as a way to become one of the largest business they can make their non-profits?

    Because we can, that's why.
    We are not starving and can let others tell us what we can use or waste.
    To me, it seems a bit simple minded to fall for that.
    The waste is producing them in the first place when there is already a problem with too many. Slaughter does nothing to discourage the production of more, quite the opposite.

    Slaughter is doing nothing toward feeding the starving, quite the opposite.

    If your raise your animals as food animals and give them away to feed the starving...and you could convince everyone else to do so, you might have a point.



  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rbow View Post
    The waste is producing them in the first place when there is already a problem with too many. Slaughter does nothing to discourage the production of more, quite the opposite.

    Slaughter is doing nothing toward feeding the starving, quite the opposite.

    If your raise your animals as food animals and give them away to feed the starving...and you could convince everyone else to do so, you might have a point.
    This does not even make sense....non of it.

    According to current statistics a bout 1% of the population is going to the packers. The number is static, has not changed with the plant closure.

    What has changed were buying patterns of some dealers. There have been plenty of reports of horses going for as little as 25 dollars.
    Add the sales barn fee and the gas to get there, that does not even make it out of the red.

    A good number of people have left their trailer on trail heads to find it occupied when they returned...

    And that is with declining numbers from registrations. The 'over production' if you will.

    I understand now why so many horse people struggle to make it as professionals, since they fail economics 101 big time. And that is in their own industry.

    If you get all you want in slaughter regulations and breeding restrictions you will end up pricing the vast majority of people out of the hobby. Most of them I dare say.
    That benefits?
    Nobody, except PETA and HSUS...one step closer to their goal.


    As to giving away food a farmer produces. that is a non-argument that maybe has merit in kindergarden.
    Quote Originally Posted by fargaloo View Post
    Do you not understand how asking "why now?" is EXACTLY part of the reason why assault victims feel silenced?



  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by MistyBlue View Post
    And this is the best thing about our country....

    even if you do not partake of an option, it's not right to remove that option from everyone else.

    This is a strawman argument.

    Have you ever knowingly dropped any pet of yours at a pound? They routinely kill animals there also. If you haven't...then we should all ban shelters/pounds from killing any of the animals.

    Have you ever:
    had an abortion?
    carried a firearm?
    written an article bashing the government?


    Better stop everyone else from doing those things too!


    Facts:
    *Cattle we eat have the same drugs in them
    *Horses are livestock
    *Not everyone has only 1-5 horses they think of as family and that's actually legal
    *All breeding programs have culls. Difference is in Europe, South America, etc they eat their mistakes. And surprise...both areas are known for their fantastic animals.


    Just because some people wouldn't send their animals off to slaughter does not mean they're hypocritical. That's grade school thinking. I'd never drop my dogs at a pound and I certainly don't want all pounds to close their doors.

    It's horses...women and horses combined make for a ridiculously overly emotional response to anything that isn't pleasant.

    So no, I wouldn't send MY horses off. I have in the past though...sent horses right back through the auction I bought them from. And red tagged so they don't sell as pets.
    I think this is the most rational post I've ever seen on COTH, and I agree with you 110%
    "If you think nobody cares about you, try missing a couple payments..."



  10. #130
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    The bottom line here, folks . . . whatever your notions of "freedom," property law, etc:

    As per the outrage directed against the condition of certain horses in recent CL ads forwarded to COTH, and many, many welfare threads we've read, right now in 2012 in most people's minds it is completely unacceptable to:

    Starve a horse
    Allow it to founder til it's feet curl up
    Turn it out to fend for itself in the wild
    Fail to provide adequate water or shelter

    So by what logic should we sit by and allow horses to be stuffed in trucks and be handled by the sickeningly abusive, atrocious methods listed at the beginning of this thread? In what way do these animals fail to merit the appropriate care that we all agree are required for others? And this means even at the penultimate moment of death. We pretty much all agree that a well-placed gunshot to the head is humane--can't things be slowed down enough to do it this way?

    When I was a kid the local cattle guy did horses; including the culls from our riding school. It was done just a few at a time, like 2 or 3, by this method and my boss made sure he stayed while they were killed so he knew for sure they didn't go on those trucks to Canada, which were horrid even then. Believe it or not, in those days I was not opposed to my own childhood pets going that way--and I certainly see the logic of using the meat. By the same token I have no problem with sending the old or unsound to hunt kennels to be dispatched the same way.

    The thing I have a problem with is the ABUSE. I don't think anyone with a working brain can possibly defend THAT. And if that's your persuasion, you should be frankly barred from any contact with animals!

    Full disclosure, I'm no vegan--I'm a low-carber who eats meat at virtually every meal avidly as evolution intended for us; I've long ago embraced the paradox of having to eat animals while believing them sentient beings. Maybe we should all take a lead from Native American beliefs, eh? They respected and revered the animals that gave them life.



  11. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeteyPie View Post
    It doesn't matter whether or not you are a PETA supporter. Some in the pro-slaughter group will spin your arguments and divert from the issue at hand with alarmist exaggerations. The issue is your opinion of horse slaughter, and it's a shame you have to apologize in order to avoid being insulted or misrepresented. It's just a technique to discredit: You don't think women should be beaten? What are you a feminazi? You pay your taxes. You are a leftist? You recycle. What are you some wacko environmentalist?

    I agree with you that cruelty is bad, and that horse slaughter in the United States is cruel -- whether the killing takes place at a plant in this country or outside of it. It is hard to imagine how anyone can argue otherwise, but we all know that money will influence all kinds of bad behavior and justify all sorts of misdeeds in the quest for it.

    Kind people have promoted the idea that if it were done humanely, that is, if the horses were transported humanely, if illegal transport of ill, pregnant, or lame horses were prevented through enforcement of existing laws, if proper humane feed lot practices were done, and if practices on the kill floor were designed specifically for the horse, then slaughter would be tolerable. But only the kind people seem interested in these changes.

    The people in each phase of the industry, the people making the money, have no incentive to change, have shown no indications of change, and will not change unless forced to.

    Would you transport your old horse to a Mexican slaughterhouse? No? Why would anyone? Why would the guy who drives the truck? Why would the guy who brokers the lots of horses? Why would the breeder who breeds 100 Quarter Horses and sends 90 to Mexico? Do you think they lose sleep at night over whether the plant is in that country or ours?
    Excellent.

    But THEY (bluey, alagirl and others) will never get it.

    Just like child abuse, animal abuse is a crime.

    But THEY feel it's perfectly fine that horses in the slaughter pipeline are subjected to cruel abuse "because they'll be hanging from a hook in a couple of days anyways".

    ************************
    \"Horses lend us the wings we lack\"



  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by SwampYankee View Post
    The thing I have a problem with is the ABUSE. I don't think anyone with a working brain can possibly defend THAT. And if that's your persuasion, you should be frankly barred from any contact with animals!
    Ditto!

    ************************
    \"Horses lend us the wings we lack\"



  13. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by luvmytbs View Post
    Excellent.

    But THEY (bluey, alagirl and others) will never get it.

    Just like child abuse, animal abuse is a crime.

    But THEY feel it's perfectly fine that horses in the slaughter pipeline are subjected to cruel abuse "because they'll be hanging from a hook in a couple of days anyways".
    No.
    YOU do not get it.

    Anything we do with our animals somebody does see as abuse.

    You ride, you abuse, you stall them, you are an abuser
    You deworm them, vaccinate you are abusing.

    The people who are behind the push for the ban don't give a rats behind, really what does happen to the animals. They are - after all - better of dead than in the care of a human, any human, and yes, that does include you!

    This is not about somebody beating a child.
    It is not even about somebody beating a horse (if we exclude the dead one that is this ongoing slaughter 'debate')

    This is about a small group of people trying to dictate what the rest of the world can do.

    not every horse going to a low end sale is neglected and starved. Not every horse on CL is. Matter of fact around here we have very few horses on there, almost all are in very good condition and most seem to sell really quick.

    By your definition anybody considered guilty of abuse should be removed from ever having contact....
    Well, Scratch harry off the list, he spurred that poor gray horse bloody, he's an abuser...not to mention he rode that other one till it collapsed, right...

    Every little girl and boy needs to be kept from ever coming into contact with animals, I am sure they all have pulled a cat by the tail some time, or plopped down on that schooly's back a little too hard one time or another...

    Show barns need to be shut down because the horses don't get to frolic 24/7 in lush green pastures...


    I get it:
    Abuse happens.
    Because we deal with living things.
    You work to minimize it, because you can't eliminate it.

    What you don't get is that you are sawing on the branch you are sitting on.
    Nobody who owns any kind of animal is above reproach. In the eyes of those who want the ban, you all are abusers. For now you are the useful foot soldiers, good to rake in the money and spread the word.
    but you know the fate of foot soldiers, right? They are sacrifices. But sooner or later, you, too will be thrown under the bus.

    oh, and those people don't care. I don't think they even respect life.
    If the wellfare of the animals would be the driving power behind the ban they would have NOT pushed for the closure of the US packers without alternative.
    How many times can I say 'I told you so'? As many times as it takes.
    Does that fill me with joy?
    hell no. The horses are only the pawns in this game. You know, the little faceless guys on the chess board, the first one to be taken....


    And one more time for those who only read PETA material:

    Injured horses are a loss for the packer: bruised and torn tissue cannot be sold, adrenalin ruins the meat.

    Yes, there are people int he business who don't care.
    But there are about as many people who don't care in the business of selling lead contaminated toys to infants and poison treats to pampered pets.

    That's where the government regulates things.
    yes it's not perfect either. but do consider that the rest of your food is inspected by the same guys...
    Quote Originally Posted by fargaloo View Post
    Do you not understand how asking "why now?" is EXACTLY part of the reason why assault victims feel silenced?



  14. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by luvmytbs View Post
    And here is one of those QH breeders whining about it:

    http://www.agweek.com/event/article/id/20053/

    Through the years, Opdahl would take salvage animals — old mares or those that were hurt or couldn’t be broken to ride — to Kist Livestock Auction at Mandan, N.D.

    “The one you sell to the slaughter market brings enough to feed four or five other horses for the winter.”
    I want to know what kill auction he's going to? You might get $200 for a "hurt" or untrainable grade horse at my local livestock auction if you're lucky. Take away auction commission and cost to haul it there, and that's maybe $150. I'm moving to his planet -- where I can feed "four horses for the winter" on a mere $150!



  15. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by JumpingPaints View Post
    A great expose in the role of slaughter facilitating the unfettered breeding of horses. I highly recommend this to anyone interested in understanding the forces behind promoting horse slaughter in the U.S.

    http://habitatforhorses.org/horse-sl...r-money-trail/
    This is absolutely true.

    And I feel it's not about wealth for all horse owners. It's a short-term type of selfish greed by some who think it somehow makes it easier,more convenient, more profitable. I'd argue that they're completely wrong. Folks like AQHA are biggest into promoting slaughter and breeding into big numbers. They claim it helps make breeding/owning more profitable. But if you compare the value of the average registered AQHA with, for example a Hannovarian or Friesian, it's completely bassackwards. By flooding the market with cheap in hopes 1% of them will do something useful, the price for the qh drops down to almost nothing. Registered aqha are often for sale in my area for $1000 or less. I've seen qh-looking yearlings dumped at the livestock sale for $20 each. It defies logic how this business model is profitable when the vast vast majority of QHs out there are worth so little.

    All AQHA would have to do is shift from quantity to quality and the QH's value would have nowhere to go but up. I know it hurts AQHA's bottom line because they depend on registration fees, but perhaps they could shift how they earn their revenue.

    It's also not helping breed value to be so closely associated with meat horses. To make money off a horse, you'd need to get more than pennies-per-pound. And if they want to get buyers interested, buyers want to think they're getting a quality mount, not a meat cow.



  16. #136
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    alagirl,

    how do your pro slaughter friends explain how banning horse slaughter will eliminate horse ownership?

    ************************
    \"Horses lend us the wings we lack\"



  17. #137
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    I think it's a myth we really had control in the first place. What about the place in California last week? Isn't that all under USDA inspection??
    Apparently that wasn't working so well.
    I don't care what species it is. All of this needs to be done humanely.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alagirl View Post
    Well, what HAS changed is that the US citizen has now no control over how the plants are inspected.
    Nice work.



  18. #138
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    For those so worried about the idea that if we ban horse slaughter "they are going to take away our animals." Cockfighting is banned, yet people still own/show and eat poultry. Dogfighting is banned, yet people still buy, own, breed dogs. Banning horse slaughter doesn't mean that horse ownership will be banned. That's purely a slippery slope argument.

    For people saying " but we're wasting a resource/poisoning the enviroinment", it's 1% of the horses we are talking about. All of those horses had owners. Abandonment/neglect is illegal. Time to make enforcement have some teeth. If you say that isn't possible, then why do you think there is any way to enforce Humane act laws for slaughter horses, when "they are going to be killed anyway", and the owners are foreign companies with large wallets, and the evidence is destroyed quickly? Plus more horses are abandoned by KB than individuals. Then you have the largest neglect case in TX outside of a horse slaughterhouse, when it was open. Slaughter doesn't prevent abuse or neglect.
    In addition we handle 99% of the horses in this country fine, without slaughtering them. Not slaughtering 1% is only something like 2.5 horses per county per year. Surely there are either homes for those 2.5 horses during that yr, or they can be humanely killed and disposed of the same way we do the other 900,000 horses that die yearly.



  19. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by JGHIRETIRE View Post
    I think it's a myth we really had control in the first place. What about the place in California last week? Isn't that all under USDA inspection??
    Apparently that wasn't working so well.
    I don't care what species it is. All of this needs to be done humanely.
    It sure is a myth. Yes, the place here in CA was supposedly under USDA inspection. If the USDA were doing its job, there would have been nothing for the ARA to have been able to video.

    The plant is now open and here is an excerpt from a recent article:

    The corrective action plan says that employees cannot pull, drag or lift a cow, the USDA said. The covert video showed cows that appeared to be sick or lame being beaten, kicked, pulled by the tail and shocked with electric prods.

    Experts in animal science said last week in interviews with The Bee that lame cattle should be euthanized at the farm. The company's plan seems to address that concern. The plan said cattle trucks won't accept cows that can't walk on their own, the USDA said. Additionally, if cows become lame during transport, they will be humanely killed on the trailer.

    Another scene in the covert video shows cows being zapped with an electric prod to the face.

    The company plan says only trained employees can use electric or vibrating prods and can do so only sparingly and not on the face or sensitive areas.


    Why is it that a slaughterhouse has to come up with a CORRECTIVE PLAN? How is it that co-workers witness the abuse and no one says anything?!

    I've seen posts where people have said abuse is bound to happen. Why is that okay?

    And once again I ask: If the USDA still can't get it right with cattle after all these years, why does anyone think it will be done right with horses?

    For those of you who would have no problem sending your own horse(s) to slaughter, I invite you to go look them in the eye and say "When the time comes for me to say goodbye to you, I have no problem sending you to the slaughter floor. You may be kicked, prodded, abused and may struggle before you are killed. The last feelings you will have before you die will be fear and terror, but that's okay with me because you are a renewable resource".
    Proud owner of a Slaughter-Bound TB from a feedlot, and her surprise baby...!
    http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e350/Jen4USC/fave.jpg
    http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e3...SC/running.jpg



  20. #140
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    Dec. 13, 2005
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    Strasburg, PA "Just west of Paradise"
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetsmom View Post
    For those so worried about the idea that if we ban horse slaughter "they are going to take away our animals." Cockfighting is banned, yet people still own/show and eat poultry. Dogfighting is banned, yet people still buy, own, breed dogs. Banning horse slaughter doesn't mean that horse ownership will be banned. That's purely a slippery slope argument.

    .

    Apples and oranges....

    We don't have horse fights!

    Yesterday driving though New Holland, I was following a truck hauling chickens to Tysons. No one screams about how the chickens are kill or how they are transported. They are going to be processed as chicken nuggets. The same with horses going to slaughter. They are going to be processed for consumption.



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