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  1. #1001
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fairfax View Post
    Ever thought of becoming a Democrat?
    Easy now, they don't have the market cornered on speaking out of both sides of the mouth!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mozart View Post
    Personally, I think the moderate use of shock collars in training humans should be allowed.



  2. #1002
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    Quote Originally Posted by Echo View Post
    ALL of our laws are based on what we - the majority - as a nation, "believe" or "feel" is moral and decent.

    If you wanted to end your friend's life, or even not your 'friend' - would you pick lethal injection or bashing in the skull - hopefully on the first attempt?
    No. Laws are based on legal precedence and law books and the experience of lawyers.
    Once the 'we feel' enters the equation we get bad law.
    Emotions are the worst base for law.
    But yes, we get them. That's how come people know that emotion based law is bad.
    If we are lucky the guardians of the Constitution strike it down.
    If not...we are most likely stuck with it. Because it is far easier to keep a bad law from going on the books than to keep it out.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mozart View Post
    Personally, I think the moderate use of shock collars in training humans should be allowed.



  3. #1003
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alagirl View Post
    No. etc.....

    But yes, we get them.
    Almost ALL of our laws are based on an emotion or what the majority of the nation believes is moral and just.

    The 'right' to do anything is based on many interpretations.

    The horse slaughter system is foreign owned and could not support itself in the U.S. alone. Americans, including the majority of horse owners, do not and will never use the horse slaughter system or it's products. The foreign companies have not promised to buy even one horse tomorrow. The foreign horse slaughter companies do NOT provide a service. They only buy what they can sell. They do NOT want to buy sick or skinny horses. There will be MAJOR costs involved to ALL horse owners if foreign food animal system regulations are implemented here, including identification and tracking costs and restrictions or loss of medications and or treatments. Currently lALL U.S. horses should be considered adulterated as there is no medical histories kept or transferred and they are being created largely by the dealers that have only owned the horse for a few days.

    We don't 'need' horse slaughter. If we 'need' to kill horses, what is the magic number? If we need to kill horses, what does that say about breeders? Why don't those - the minority - that continue to persist to collect the few dollars on the misery of their horse in the slaughter system, just do the right thing by the horse and pay to have their 'trash' taken away like most folks? That or come up with a system that everyone would support. Not just bring back the old system and say you're going to fix it - we all know how that goes



  4. #1004
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    Quote Originally Posted by Echo View Post
    Almost ALL of our laws are based on an emotion or what the majority of the nation believes is moral and just.

    The 'right' to do anything is based on many interpretations.

    The horse slaughter system is foreign owned and could not support itself in the U.S. alone. Americans, including the majority of horse owners, do not and will never use the horse slaughter system or it's products. The foreign companies have not promised to buy even one horse tomorrow. The foreign horse slaughter companies do NOT provide a service. They only buy what they can sell. They do NOT want to buy sick or skinny horses. There will be MAJOR costs involved to ALL horse owners if foreign food animal system regulations are implemented here, including identification and tracking costs and restrictions or loss of medications and or treatments. Currently lALL U.S. horses should be considered adulterated as there is no medical histories kept or transferred and they are being created largely by the dealers that have only owned the horse for a few days.

    We don't 'need' horse slaughter. If we 'need' to kill horses, what is the magic number? If we need to kill horses, what does that say about breeders? Why don't those - the minority - that continue to persist to collect the few dollars on the misery of their horse in the slaughter system, just do the right thing by the horse and pay to have their 'trash' taken away like most folks? That or come up with a system that everyone would support. Not just bring back the old system and say you're going to fix it - we all know how that goes
    You know, you keep repeating the same, same and we keep telling you why you are not right in what you say there.

    Guess that for some, to do the same again and again and again seems smart, others, well, go .

    We have discussed for pages now why you are assuming much and no facts there.
    Do we need to keep repeating the same to show that your position doesn't make much sense?

    You seem to have a personal vendetta, as others do, because you think slaughter caused some horse you know harm and so they are your sworn enemies.

    Ok, we get that, but others will disagree with that, because, honestly, we know slaughter is not what you and animal rights extremists make it be.

    Do you also call for a ban on driving if your kid was killed in a car wreck?
    Do you keep pointing out that drivers break laws, so driving needs banning, so no one's kid will be killed?

    Sensible people that take on a cause go about making whatever they perceive is wrong better, not off the deep end wanting to ban-ban-ban or else.



  5. #1005
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    Quote Originally Posted by Echo View Post
    Almost ALL of our laws are based on an emotion or what the majority of the nation believes is moral and just.

    The 'right' to do anything is based on many interpretations.

    The horse slaughter system is foreign owned and could not support itself in the U.S. alone. Americans, including the majority of horse owners, do not and will never use the horse slaughter system or it's products. The foreign companies have not promised to buy even one horse tomorrow. The foreign horse slaughter companies do NOT provide a service. They only buy what they can sell. They do NOT want to buy sick or skinny horses. There will be MAJOR costs involved to ALL horse owners if foreign food animal system regulations are implemented here, including identification and tracking costs and restrictions or loss of medications and or treatments. Currently lALL U.S. horses should be considered adulterated as there is no medical histories kept or transferred and they are being created largely by the dealers that have only owned the horse for a few days.

    We don't 'need' horse slaughter. If we 'need' to kill horses, what is the magic number? If we need to kill horses, what does that say about breeders? Why don't those - the minority - that continue to persist to collect the few dollars on the misery of their horse in the slaughter system, just do the right thing by the horse and pay to have their 'trash' taken away like most folks? That or come up with a system that everyone would support. Not just bring back the old system and say you're going to fix it - we all know how that goes
    Why don't you establish a "rescue" like so many others and just acquire all of the slaughter horses...save them...oh..wait..you SOLD your horses which is YOUR RIGHT....the fact you now feel guilt is of no concern of mine.

    Your simplistic..stop all breeding is exactly the mantra of the HSUS/RARA's.

    The foreign owned plants pay taxes, municiple charges i.e. water, waste, electricity, they pay wages and also to support industries i.e. truckers, trains for shipping produce and that in turn allows them to hire, pay taxes, increase employment with a variety of support industries. Clothing manufactures, rendering good operations fertilizers, export fees to brokerage houses

    Horses that are injured, damaged etc are slaughtered strictly for rendering so I do not know where you are getting your misinformation from. The TRUE reason many of those horses do not make it to the Canadian slaughter plants is due to law infractions.,.. against the law to transport into Canada injured or sick horses...that has nothing to do with the slaughter house

    Major costs? ...this would ONLY apply to horses sold for slaughter. The meat buyers would have the increased costs which they would pass on to the slaughter houses. If you euthanize your horse, dies of old age, injury etc...you would not pay.

    The horses given individual health certs to border cross will have a form of history and it can be assumed they will have had some type of medical care...on the other hand...those irresponsible breeders everyone claims only breed for slaughter will not be willing to spend money on meds and vaccinations. Should not be too hard to get a signed form from them for their thousands bred each year...according to the RARA's



  6. #1006
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    Fairfax, question for you:

    Does "your" plant still accept tattoed thoroughbreds to be processed for human consumption?

    ************************
    \"Horses lend us the wings we lack\"



  7. #1007
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fairfax View Post
    Why don't you establish a "rescue" like so many others and just acquire all of the slaughter horses...save them...oh..wait..you SOLD your horses which is YOUR RIGHT....the fact you now feel guilt is of no concern of mine.

    Your simplistic..stop all breeding is exactly the mantra of the HSUS/RARA's.

    The foreign owned plants pay taxes, municiple charges i.e. water, waste, electricity, they pay wages and also to support industries i.e. truckers, trains for shipping produce and that in turn allows them to hire, pay taxes, increase employment with a variety of support industries. Clothing manufactures, rendering good operations fertilizers, export fees to brokerage houses

    Horses that are injured, damaged etc are slaughtered strictly for rendering so I do not know where you are getting your misinformation from. The TRUE reason many of those horses do not make it to the Canadian slaughter plants is due to law infractions.,.. against the law to transport into Canada injured or sick horses...that has nothing to do with the slaughter house

    Major costs? ...this would ONLY apply to horses sold for slaughter. The meat buyers would have the increased costs which they would pass on to the slaughter houses. If you euthanize your horse, dies of old age, injury etc...you would not pay.

    The horses given individual health certs to border cross will have a form of history and it can be assumed they will have had some type of medical care...on the other hand...those irresponsible breeders everyone claims only breed for slaughter will not be willing to spend money on meds and vaccinations. Should not be too hard to get a signed form from them for their thousands bred each year...according to the RARA's
    I have never claimed to be a breed elitest and have never suggested to stop all breeding. For some that believe that we 'need' to slaughter horses it is the same as believing that we 'need' to kill horses. Why are breeders breeding if we 'need' to kill them? Since breeders are still breeding, we don't 'need' the horse slaughter system!
    It is estimated that 10% of the horse population comes to the end of their life each year or over 900,000. Of that 900,000 - approx. 125,000 find their way into the slaughter system. The other 775,000 do not. IMO most of the owners of the 125,000 that do find their way into the system, could 'afford' to humanely euthanize but choose to take the blood money instead. If a humane system were developed that all horse owners would use, it would need to accomadate all 900,000 that come to the end of their life each year, and they probably would stop paying and start charging. However the foreign owned slaughter companies aren't buying every for sale or unwanted horse now. They do NOT provide a service and have never promised to buy even one horse tomorrow. If U.S. horses continue to be slaughtered, food animal regulations will be mandated on ALL horse owners for a system most will never use and could stop tomorrow.

    http://www.apnm.org/news/2012/Forbes...%201-10-12.pdf

    “Five million dollars in federal funding was spent annually to support three foreign-owned horse slaughter plants: Dallas Crown, Beltex in Fort Worth and Cavel in DeKalb, Illinois,” claims Bacon. “When Dallas Crown’s tax records came to light in the city’s legal struggle, we found they’d paid only $5 in federal taxes on a gross income of over $12 million. They liked to say they were good corporate citizens. But it is my belief they were more like corporate thugs.”
    Life In A Slaughter Town
    The twice-elected Bacon has plenty of gruesome stories to share, dating back to the ’80’s, when the Belgian-owned Dallas Crown put in a pump to force horse blood through the city sewer system and burst the pipes. Within hours, horse blood backed up into residents’ bathtubs and bubbled up through city streets.



  8. #1008
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    Quote Originally Posted by luvmytbs View Post
    Fairfax, question for you:

    Does "your" plant still accept tattoed thoroughbreds to be processed for human consumption?
    I don't know. Why don't you call them.

    The Canadian Appaloosa Horse Club and Museum is at Claresholm which is the next town up and I do know they get calls from the plant letting them know when Appaloosas are entered into their inventory.

    You could also contact the TB society and also the registration groups to see if they work with the plant.



  9. #1009
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    Quote Originally Posted by Echo View Post
    I have never claimed to be a breed elitest and have never suggested to stop all breeding. For some that believe that we 'need' to slaughter horses it is the same as believing that we 'need' to kill horses. Why are breeders breeding if we 'need' to kill them? Since breeders are still breeding, we don't 'need' the horse slaughter system!
    It is estimated that 10% of the horse population comes to the end of their life each year or over 900,000. Of that 900,000 - approx. 125,000 find their way into the slaughter system. The other 775,000 do not. IMO most of the owners of the 125,000 that do find their way into the system, could 'afford' to humanely euthanize but choose to take the blood money instead. If a humane system were developed that all horse owners would use, it would need to accomadate all 900,000 that come to the end of their life each year, and they probably would stop paying and start charging. However the foreign owned slaughter companies aren't buying every for sale or unwanted horse now. They do NOT provide a service and have never promised to buy even one horse tomorrow. If U.S. horses continue to be slaughtered, food animal regulations will be mandated on ALL horse owners for a system most will never use and could stop tomorrow.

    http://www.apnm.org/news/2012/Forbes...%201-10-12.pdf
    If they are nort paying their share, then that should be addressed. It is not limited to slaughter plants as many places that offer employment receive enormous tax breaks. Walmart, Cosco, Safeway, Target usually have reduced, eliminated or tax deferred clauses with towns they move into due to the employment they will offer.

    Your math makes little sense. 900,000 die each year and only 125,000 go to slaughter. Of that 125,000 I personally know breeders who would not be able to pay for euthanization of their 50 head of horses when the total costs are $700.00 per horse. NOR should they be required to have it in a not to be used for anything else kitty. If they put their horses through a legitimate auction...they are sold...to a little pigtail girl or a big bad slaughter kiiller

    Then you toss a curve ball:

    If a humane system were developed that all horse owners would use, it would need to accomadate all 900,000 that come to the end of their life each year, and they probably would stop paying and start charging


    HUH????? I thought 900,000 minus 125,000 died of natural causes or a humane death...

    Did you miss typing something? Where are you getting the $900,000 die each year from?



  10. #1010
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    Quote Originally Posted by Echo View Post
    I have never claimed to be a breed elitest and have never suggested to stop all breeding. For some that believe that we 'need' to slaughter horses it is the same as believing that we 'need' to kill horses. Why are breeders breeding if we 'need' to kill them? Since breeders are still breeding, we don't 'need' the horse slaughter system!
    It is estimated that 10% of the horse population comes to the end of their life each year or over 900,000. Of that 900,000 - approx. 125,000 find their way into the slaughter system. The other 775,000 do not. IMO most of the owners of the 125,000 that do find their way into the system, could 'afford' to humanely euthanize but choose to take the blood money instead. If a humane system were developed that all horse owners would use, it would need to accomadate all 900,000 that come to the end of their life each year, and they probably would stop paying and start charging. However the foreign owned slaughter companies aren't buying every for sale or unwanted horse now. They do NOT provide a service and have never promised to buy even one horse tomorrow. If U.S. horses continue to be slaughtered, food animal regulations will be mandated on ALL horse owners for a system most will never use and could stop tomorrow.

    http://www.apnm.org/news/2012/Forbes...%201-10-12.pdf
    Echo - That is a staggering # of horses that die! Especially since they are only pets/work animals.
    from sunridge1:Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.it is going to be good until the last drop!Eleneswell, the open trail begged to be used. D Taylor



  11. #1011
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    Quote Originally Posted by hurleycane View Post
    Echo - That is a staggering # of horses that die! Especially since they are only pets/work animals.
    So why haven't you asked her for her source and a link?


    Oh...I get it...that only occurs when you are losing the debate and it is from the Pro slaughter group.



  12. #1012
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fairfax View Post
    So why haven't you asked her for her source and a link?


    Oh...I get it...that only occurs when you are losing the debate and it is from the Pro slaughter group.
    I feel that you are really mean to her.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mozart View Post
    Personally, I think the moderate use of shock collars in training humans should be allowed.



  13. #1013
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    If they weren't taking them or they weren't sticking them on a feedlot somewhere then I'm sure the answer is yes.
    There are tb's that go through our local auction - if they don't get bought out of there - they are put on the truck.
    The KB's go up and down the west coast.

    Quote Originally Posted by luvmytbs View Post
    Fairfax, question for you:

    Does "your" plant still accept tattoed thoroughbreds to be processed for human consumption?



  14. #1014
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fairfax View Post
    So why haven't you asked her for her source and a link?


    Oh...I get it...that only occurs when you are losing the debate and it is from the Pro slaughter group.
    I believe the numbers came from a study by Deloitte Consulting LLP for the American Horse Council Foundation in 2005. There is a link to order the study.
    http://www.horsecouncil.org/national...horse-industry

    or there is a brief APHIS study online
    Equid deaths
    Overall, the percentages of equids more than
    30 days of age that died in 1998 and 2005 were
    similar (2.0 and 1.8 percent, respectively). The
    highest mortality rates were found in equids aged
    20 years and or more in both 1998 and 2005 (11.9
    and 10.2 percent, respectively). Mortality rates for
    equids more than 30 days but less than 20 years of
    age were eight to nine times lower than that of
    equids 20 years or older (Table 2).
    http://www.aphis.usda.gov/animal_hea..._Mortality.pdf

    Even without the AHC study, using the population estimate given by AHC of 9.2 million - 10% would be approx. 900,000 annually.



  15. #1015
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alagirl View Post
    I feel that you are really mean to her.
    It would appear that I am



  16. #1016
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    Quote Originally Posted by Echo View Post
    I believe the numbers came from a study by Deloitte Consulting LLP for the American Horse Council Foundation in 2005. There is a link to order the study.
    http://www.horsecouncil.org/national...horse-industry

    or there is a brief APHIS study online
    Equid deaths
    Overall, the percentages of equids more than
    30 days of age that died in 1998 and 2005 were
    similar (2.0 and 1.8 percent, respectively). The
    highest mortality rates were found in equids aged
    20 years and or more in both 1998 and 2005 (11.9
    and 10.2 percent, respectively). Mortality rates for
    equids more than 30 days but less than 20 years of
    age were eight to nine times lower than that of
    equids 20 years or older (Table 2).
    http://www.aphis.usda.gov/animal_hea..._Mortality.pdf

    Even without the AHC study, using the population estimate given by AHC of 9.2 million - 10% would be approx. 900,000 annually.
    Well then..since everyone has cut WAY back on breeding..within five years there should be NO excessive amount of horses as it would appear from your interpretation that 125,000 went to slaughter and 775000 died of "natural causes, attrition etc.

    But don't let the numbers and facts get in the way of your interpretation. You didn't set up the unemployment grid for the U.S. "facts" regarding numbers for this past quarter did you?



  17. #1017
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    Quote Originally Posted by JGHIRETIRE View Post
    If they weren't taking them or they weren't sticking them on a feedlot somewhere then I'm sure the answer is yes.
    There are tb's that go through our local auction - if they don't get bought out of there - they are put on the truck.
    The KB's go up and down the west coast.
    You are like the interviewer who asks the question, then interrupts and answers the question and then screams at the other person that the answer was wrong

    Maybe they all just died due to attrition and all went to happy heaven...ask Echo...I am sure she will be able to work the numbers out for you.



  18. #1018
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fairfax View Post
    Well then..since everyone has cut WAY back on breeding..within five years there should be NO excessive amount of horses as it would appear from your interpretation that 125,000 went to slaughter and 775000 died of "natural causes, attrition etc.
    When this study was conducted, it was also acknowledged that the number of 9.2 million U.S. horses did NOT represent the actual number, which would be largely higher (the thought was roughly twice as many).
    A factual study would require counting horses by going from door to door.

    And again, slaughter is driven by demand, not supply.

    ************************
    \"Horses lend us the wings we lack\"



  19. #1019
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    Quote Originally Posted by JGHIRETIRE View Post
    If they weren't taking them or they weren't sticking them on a feedlot somewhere then I'm sure the answer is yes.
    There are tb's that go through our local auction - if they don't get bought out of there - they are put on the truck.
    The KB's go up and down the west coast.
    It was a rhetorical question on my part.

    Fact is, that while the Canadian plants earlier this year announced they would no longer be taking TB's, it was only implemented on a temporary basis.

    ************************
    \"Horses lend us the wings we lack\"



  20. #1020
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    I was actually trying to answer Echo's question - I mean jeez
    scuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuusssssssssssssssse mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.
    Since you've got all the answers - go for it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Fairfax View Post
    You are like the interviewer who asks the question, then interrupts and answers the question and then screams at the other person that the answer was wrong

    Maybe they all just died due to attrition and all went to happy heaven...ask Echo...I am sure she will be able to work the numbers out for you.



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