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  1. #981
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    First line reads OPEN MINDED uh hello?? Hello anyone there?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post
    Maybe this would help:


    ---Robert H. Ennis, author of The Cornell Critical Thinking Tests, offers this very streamlined version of what is a good critical evaluator:

    -Open-minded and mindful of alternatives.
    -Tries to be well-informed.
    -Judges well the credibility of sources.
    -Identifies conclusions, reasons and assumptions.
    -Judges well the quality of an argument, including the acceptability of its reasons, assumptions and evidence.
    -Can well develop and defend a reasonable position.
    -Asks appropriate clarifying questions.
    -Formulates plausible hypotheses; plans experiments well.
    -Defines terms in a way appropriate for the context.
    -Draws conclusions when warranted, but with caution.
    -Integrates all items in this list when deciding what to believe or do."---



  2. #982
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    Quote Originally Posted by JGHIRETIRE View Post
    First line reads OPEN MINDED uh hello?? Hello anyone there?

    Quote Originally Posted by JGHIRETIRE View Post
    You and Bluey really want to point fingers about bully arguments?? Wow

    Again, you can't refute the argument, you stoop to personal attacks.

    The bully argument is that somebody feels it's wrong/abusive/whatever nobody else gets to do it.

    I don't like cake so you shall have non either. However, the money people behind it are going the extra step: I am allowed to have it, because I am special, but you are not. Like that PETA chick and her insulin.

    Ok, let me see: I feel hunters are wrong and the constant jumping is cruel to the horse. So you must stop. Or Jumping. After all Jumper trainers kill - no - murder their horses for the insurance money.....H/J must be banned.

    Are we making any progress in the fallacy of the argument?

    I know....butbutbut
    Quote Originally Posted by Mozart View Post
    Personally, I think the moderate use of shock collars in training humans should be allowed.



  3. #983
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    Dec. 21, 2008
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    Quote Originally Posted by Echo View Post
    adulterated defined in the Meat Inspection Act under 601(m)
    http://www/fda.gov/RegulatoryInforma.../ucm148693.htm

    Theft by fraud and deception is illegal.

    No authority wants to address any part of the horse slaughter system. The FDA has told me it is not their responsibility, but apparently they didn't tell the CFIA the same thing. Of course it took them a YEAR to issue a 'warning' letter.

    • WARNING LETTER, CIN-12-312058-26: July 9, 2012, Mr. Ronald A. Andio, Owner
    http://www.fda.gov/ICECI/Enforcement.../ucm313462.htm


    The CFIA is the U.S. equivilent to FSIS. They are responsible for the border inspection and plant inspectors.


    Didn't you willingly give( sell) your 2 horses to these people? How is that deception? If you were so worried about them why did you give them up to begin with. The sad fact is you have no right to say what happens to any horse you don't own anymore. If someone promises a forever home and turns around and does something else with the horse that is their right. If you want to control what happens to them,then keep your horse.



  4. #984
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post
    Really?

    Do I need to explain what "genetically engineered" is, or can you look that up all by yourself?
    Oh wah so I misspoke. Easier to type than... purposely changing the genetic tendencies by selective breeding. Not "natural" selection. Blah blah blah. I already knew what ever I wrote you would nit pick it to death.

    I worked in the slaughter industry. 50 hours a day 5 days a week for 2 years. I've delivered a friends horse to a slaughter buyer. I've personally known 2 kill buyers. I've had many friends sell their horses into that market. I even horse camped last week-end with a widely known kill buyers/traders daughter. I think I know my way around the slaughter industry just a wee bit.

    Anyone with ANY sense of empathy could NEVER in a million years (sense of empathy for other living creatures besides themselves as a key phrase, you know that little emotion that makes us "different' from mere animals) allow their personal horses to go to slaughter. A true horseman could never watch the process without an emotional response. Hell I'm going so far as to say a true human SHOULDN'T be able to passively if they believe that horses can feel pain,fear and not regard them as a just a commodity.

    Hell most even wouldn't eat meat if they've seen what I've seen. I couldn't eat pork for many years. And they do still, yard, slaughter, grade, inspect it they same way today.

    Buy local or grow your own.



  5. #985
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    Quote Originally Posted by baxtersmom View Post
    I do own a horse, and no, I would not breed one, since there ARE TOO DAMNED MANY ALREADY.

    And talk about false analogies... I don't *make* cars. Breeders MAKE horses..
    Actually horses make horses.



  6. #986
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fairfax View Post
    NONE of you...AGAIN...NONE of you have been to a Canadian slaughter plant. Period
    And I don't think any of "us" ever claimed to have been to a plant.

    My "field of espertise" are auctions, hauling and local collection stations/feedlots.
    The abuse horses are subjected to on the front end of slaughter is enough for me to have an opinion on the entire process.

    I do however believe that the videos presented to the CFIA were not altered and therefore use them to form an opinion of the actual process. In addition Dr. Grandins comments after she reviewed the same, support my opinions.

    The other source confirming my personal observations are the pictures released by the USDA via a FOIA.
    The USDA does state that a lot of the conditions in which the horses arrived at Beltex (that's where the USDA took the pictures) can be attributed to the owners of the animals.

    Obviously one would agree that elf feet would not have grown during the horse's time with a kill buyer.
    However, injuries like broken limbs, eyes hanging out of their sockets, foreheads ripped wide open, is not the way these horses arrived at the auction.

    Therefore the "finger pointing" by the USDA is for the most part directed at the "suppliers".

    ************************
    \"Horses lend us the wings we lack\"



  7. #987
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    Again the pot calls the kettle. There is no discussion or even an argument talk about emptional. You and Bluey almost always lead with the personal attacks. We get to where we agree that most of us would be ok with the local abbatoir but that isn't good enough for the pro slaughter side. We absolutely must think the way you do and if that is not bullying I'm not sure what is.


    QUOTE=Alagirl;6558859]Again, you can't refute the argument, you stoop to personal attacks.

    The bully argument is that somebody feels it's wrong/abusive/whatever nobody else gets to do it.

    I don't like cake so you shall have non either. However, the money people behind it are going the extra step: I am allowed to have it, because I am special, but you are not. Like that PETA chick and her insulin.

    Ok, let me see: I feel hunters are wrong and the constant jumping is cruel to the horse. So you must stop. Or Jumping. After all Jumper trainers kill - no - murder their horses for the insurance money.....H/J must be banned.

    Are we making any progress in the fallacy of the argument?

    I know....butbutbut[/QUOTE]



  8. #988
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    I watched chickens being done years ago. Chop the head throw the body
    Didn't bother me in the least. When they put them in the pot so they could pluck them?? That was the most awful smell in the world. I didn't eat chicken for 10 years.
    I ended up liking rabbit they were much cleaner than chickens. They used to have demos of how they killed rabbits live at the fair. They don't do that anymore. The rabbit had no clue no muss no fuss.
    So I totally understand what you are saying

    Quote Originally Posted by sunridge1 View Post
    Oh wah so I misspoke. Easier to type than... purposely changing the genetic tendencies by selective breeding. Not "natural" selection. Blah blah blah. I already knew what ever I wrote you would nit pick it to death.

    I worked in the slaughter industry. 50 hours a day 5 days a week for 2 years. I've delivered a friends horse to a slaughter buyer. I've personally known 2 kill buyers. I've had many friends sell their horses into that market. I even horse camped last week-end with a widely known kill buyers/traders daughter. I think I know my way around the slaughter industry just a wee bit.

    Anyone with ANY sense of empathy could NEVER in a million years (sense of empathy for other living creatures besides themselves as a key phrase, you know that little emotion that makes us "different' from mere animals) allow their personal horses to go to slaughter. A true horseman could never watch the process without an emotional response. Hell I'm going so far as to say a true human SHOULDN'T be able to passively if they believe that horses can feel pain,fear and not regard them as a just a commodity.

    Hell most even wouldn't eat meat if they've seen what I've seen. I couldn't eat pork for many years. And they do still, yard, slaughter, grade, inspect it they same way today.

    Buy local or grow your own.



  9. #989
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    Mary..please don't tell me how to work 50 hours per day as I am already tired working 18 hours per day.

    IF a person is so very against slaughter, then they should not deliver their friends horse to slaughter.

    Stand your ground and refuse.

    Demand that person pay for a vet to euthanize

    Why would you have friends who are kill buyers? I don't have friends who are child abusers.... you have claimed slaughter is abuse

    You have many friends who SELL their horses to slaughter....If I was against slaughter I would not associate with any of them.

    Was the slaughter plant you worked for...beef...???? or equine??? Just curious as you never mentioned it before on any forum I remember you posting on...

    I guess slaughter is ok for YOU to deliver a horse to...for YOUR FRIENDS to sell their horses to or for YOU to hang out with kill buyers...but you want EVERYONE ELSE...to be denied the OPTION of slaughter.

    Double standard or just double speak?



  10. #990
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    Quote Originally Posted by JGHIRETIRE View Post
    I watched chickens being done years ago. Chop the head throw the body
    Didn't bother me in the least. When they put them in the pot so they could pluck them?? That was the most awful smell in the world. I didn't eat chicken for 10 years.
    I ended up liking rabbit they were much cleaner than chickens. They used to have demos of how they killed rabbits live at the fair. They don't do that anymore. The rabbit had no clue no muss no fuss.
    So I totally understand what you are saying
    I watched the local butcher guy kill and slaughter our cattle. Not a big deal in the least. Quick and painless. I watched a local guy shoot my old mare 2 years ago. But then THAT isn't the problem it's all that happens before they hit the found for the last time.

    When my dad, a depression era 4th gen. farmer, shipped our boss cow, my pet, the cow that helped us immensely when we had to rotate pastures, who would come when called and bring the whole wild herd with her, to slaughter, he told me he regretted it and should never have done it. A man who NEVER admitted he was wrong about anything....That was saying a lot.



  11. #991
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunridge1 View Post
    Oh wah so I misspoke. Easier to type than... purposely changing the genetic tendencies by selective breeding. Not "natural" selection. Blah blah blah. I already knew what ever I wrote you would nit pick it to death.

    I worked in the slaughter industry. 50 hours a day 5 days a week for 2 years. I've delivered a friends horse to a slaughter buyer. I've personally known 2 kill buyers. I've had many friends sell their horses into that market. I even horse camped last week-end with a widely known kill buyers/traders daughter. I think I know my way around the slaughter industry just a wee bit.

    Anyone with ANY sense of empathy could NEVER in a million years (sense of empathy for other living creatures besides themselves as a key phrase, you know that little emotion that makes us "different' from mere animals) allow their personal horses to go to slaughter. A true horseman could never watch the process without an emotional response. Hell I'm going so far as to say a true human SHOULDN'T be able to passively if they believe that horses can feel pain,fear and not regard them as a just a commodity.

    Hell most even wouldn't eat meat if they've seen what I've seen. I couldn't eat pork for many years. And they do still, yard, slaughter, grade, inspect it they same way today.

    Buy local or grow your own.
    I answered to that before.
    I don't believe you have been in a horse slaughter plant and watched horses killed there.
    If you had, you would understand that, other than the rare horse, they walk down the chute and never know what hit them, drop there, just as they do when a vet gives an injection, except some do fuss a bit when injected.
    Very rarely a horse is fighting around or is missed, other than the rare case, some times not once for days.

    If a shift has horses acting up, the whole slows down and the foreman gets the problem solved quickly, so that doesn't happen again.

    That is why I say bunk to your story of how horses feel so terrible, when they clearly are not aware at all, neither are cattle, that they are going to be killed.

    As for sad, yes, it is immensely sad to see anything killed, in a slaughter plant, in the highway when you pass a bad wreck, even on a TV movie.

    We need to learn to be pragmatic and understand that there is a time and there is a place where death will happen and that is sad, but it is the way the world works.

    At least in a horse slaughter plant the horses are used one more time after dead, not made into a poisonous carcass and so a liability to be disposed off, as so many are when euthanized by a vet.
    Very sad that we are coming to, having as we always will unwanted horses, to wantonly killing them today in "euthanizing clinics" and handle them as trash.

    Who could think that makes any sense at all, when processed in a slaughter plant we could use them one more time as the natural, renewable resource some horses have always been for us?



  12. #992
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fairfax View Post
    Mary..please don't tell me how to work 50 hours per day as I am already tired working 18 hours per day.

    IF a person is so very against slaughter, then they should not deliver their friends horse to slaughter.

    Stand your ground and refuse.

    Demand that person pay for a vet to euthanize

    Why would you have friends who are kill buyers? I don't have friends who are child abusers.... you have claimed slaughter is abuse

    You have many friends who SELL their horses to slaughter....If I was against slaughter I would not associate with any of them.

    Was the slaughter plant you worked for...beef...???? or equine??? Just curious as you never mentioned it before on any forum I remember you posting on...

    I guess slaughter is ok for YOU to deliver a horse to...for YOUR FRIENDS to sell their horses to or for YOU to hang out with kill buyers...but you want EVERYONE ELSE...to be denied the OPTION of slaughter.

    Double standard or just double speak?
    Jeez other than the camping, did you think I just did all that yesterday? Do you think I was just born knowing all I NOW know about the slaughter pipeline? I've had long full life, and have NOT stopped learning about anything. I don't practice double-speak or double standard that is all YOUR department.

    So I should shun the kill buyers daughter? Hmmmm interesting...
    Last edited by sunridge1; Sep. 14, 2012 at 05:34 PM.



  13. #993
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alagirl View Post
    butbutbut

    However, your argument relies on emotions which can't be debated. That is the long and the short of it. But emotions cannot be allowed into policy making. It leads to bad law. And bad law is no good to anybody.
    ALL of our laws are based on what we - the majority - as a nation, "believe" or "feel" is moral and decent.

    If you wanted to end your friend's life, or even not your 'friend' - would you pick lethal injection or bashing in the skull - hopefully on the first attempt?



  14. #994
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alagirl View Post
    Considering that I don't know you from Adam's dog, I take past performance as indicator and remain skeptic about your experience.
    Well, you missed your chance.

    Approximately eight years ago I put an invite on COTH for anyone to join me going to an auction.

    One, just one, accepted my invitation. She was "on the fence".

    She drove 5 hours, booked into a hotel close to the auction, from where I picked her up.

    We spent hours looking at the horses in the kill pen, watching the auction and the 'transactions' after.
    I explained the process, pointed out the 'players' and left the rest up to her own interpretation.

    Even though we were there until the wee hours, she decided to return by herself early the next morning to see what had happened to the horses that had been left there by some of the buyers.

    Later she called to let me know, she was no longer on the fence.
    IIRC she did post her thoughts and conclusions here on COTH after the trip.

    And no, I did not pay off the auction workers or kill buyers to handle the horses in an unprofessional and inhumane manner.

    ************************
    \"Horses lend us the wings we lack\"



  15. #995
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    My point, Mary, is if someone calls slaughter all the names in the book...says it is cruel, etc. then they should not support it and if you truly feel strongly about it..don't hang out with those who use it OR deliver their horses.

    I am sure you tried to talk your friends out of shipping their horse or having you deliver it...

    If you want to ban if for others...then consistency is required.

    No more...no less



  16. #996
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    Quote Originally Posted by luvmytbs View Post
    Approximately eight years ago I put an invite on COTH for anyone to join me going to an auction.

    One, just one, accepted my invitation. She was "on the fence".

    She drove 5 hours, booked into a hotel close to the auction, from where I picked her up.

    We spent hours looking at the horses in the kill pen, watching the auction and the 'transactions' after.
    I explained the process, pointed out the 'players' and left the rest up to her own interpretation.

    Even though we were there until the wee hours, she decided to return by herself early the next morning to see what had happened to the horses that had been left there by some of the buyers.

    Later she called to let me know, she was no longer on the fence.
    IIRC she did post her thoughts and conclusions here on COTH after the trip.

    And no, I did not pay off the auction workers or kill buyers to handle the horses in an unprofessional and inhumane manner.
    I worked in juvenile probation and apprehension for many years. I saw DEAD babies, children etc. Tragic for sure...but not ALL parents beat their children...not all foster homes starve them and tie them up in closets.

    I am not against people having children.

    There are good and bad people.

    I have been to many auctions including Innisfail which is huge and have watched day after day...everything from broncs for rodeos to feeder horses run through. There have been wonderful handlers and stock men and there have been not so wonderful handlers and stock men

    You want a higher standard imposed than would ever be required of an owner. Bet you know owners who are mean people...doesn't mean you have to follow their lead nor should that disuade others from owning horses.

    I am sorry your experiences have ALL been negative.



  17. #997
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fairfax View Post
    I am sorry your experiences have ALL been negative.
    Where did I ever state ALL????
    I have always used MOST, as that is the case.

    Out of the seven regular KB's at 'my auction', there was one who went above and beyond to ensure the humane, calm and safe treatment of his horses once he took possession of them.

    He also stopped shipping horses to slaughter when TX shut down and only returned to the auction for another three months during which he purchased a few well trained riding horses in the 1K range.

    ************************
    \"Horses lend us the wings we lack\"



  18. #998
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fairfax View Post
    My point, Mary, is if someone calls slaughter all the names in the book...says it is cruel, etc. then they should not support it and if you truly feel strongly about it..don't hang out with those who use it OR deliver their horses.

    I am sure you tried to talk your friends out of shipping their horse or having you deliver it...

    If you want to ban if for others...then consistency is required.

    No more...no less
    erm... that is just plain BS. Not a requirement, except maybe to you.



  19. #999
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    Quote Originally Posted by Echo View Post
    ALL of our laws are based on what we - the majority - as a nation, "believe" or "feel" is moral and decent.

    If you wanted to end your friend's life, or even not your 'friend' - would you pick lethal injection or bashing in the skull - hopefully on the first attempt?
    My Friend Flicka was a fiction book...not a reality show.



  20. #1000
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunridge1 View Post
    erm... that is just plain BS. Not a requirement, except maybe to you.
    The art of double speak

    You support and anti slaughter crowd and want slaughter of equines banned and yet, you drive your friends horse to the slaughter plant.

    Ever thought of becoming a Democrat?



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