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  1. #821
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    Dec. 31, 2000
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    El Paso, TX
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post
    Ag, big and little is what brings food and so many more other products to us.
    They are not there to thwart animal rights groups at all.

    Ag is defending itself from myths and propaganda by those animal rights groups that don't have anything else to bring to the table than getting bigger and bigger, their only business to raise money to, guess what, get bigger yet.

    The "ag" that in your eyes is not caring for it's animals because there is no profit in that is one more and very big animal rights myth.

    Does it make sense not to care for your animals, when poorly cared for animals don't produce, not even going into the humane side of it?

    Everyone in animal agriculture spends their whole life seeing that the animals under their care is well taken care of, is what we do, myths nothwitstanding.

    Sure, you can find abuses there, so can you in, from all places, rescues also, right?
    Why?
    Because abuse is a whole different problem that proper care, in anyone's eyes than those of animal myths and propaganda and those of their followers.

    You want to make "big ag" the opposite of animal rights groups and sorry, that one just won't fly, not with anyone with any ounce of sense.

    It is about time for that link again, that explains what those animal rights groups really are, for those that still have any doubts:

    http://activistcash.com/organization...-united-states
    You obviously have blinders on. You are no better than the most extreme PETA person.
    Here is the truth about who runs all of the "company links" you like to link... http://www.bermanexposed.org/

    Some of Berman’s other websites:
    ConsumerFreedom.com
    NannyCulture.com
    ActivistCash.com (Attacks public interest groups. Sock puppet used to give unsubstantiated claims authority)
    HumaneWatch.org (Attacks HSUS)
    AnimalScam.com (Attacks animal protection charities)
    PetaKillsAnimals.com/PetaSavesAnimals.com (Attacks People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals)
    PetaPetition.com (Inactive. Attacked PETA)
    CSPIScam.com (Attacks Center for Science in the Public Interest)
    PhysicianScam.com (Attacks Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine)
    PCRMScam.com (Attacks PCRM)
    CrewExposed.com (Attacks Citizens for Responsible Ethics in Washington)
    MadCowScare.com (Inactive. Downplayed dangers of Mad Cow disease)
    HolyVeal.com (Inactive. Attacked animal protection groups and downplayed cruelty of veal)
    FishScam.com (Downplays dangers of mercury in seafood)
    TunaScam.com (Alias of FishScam.com)
    MercuryFacts.com (Alias of FishScam.com)
    FishTruth.com (Inactive)
    HowMuchFish.com (Skewed mercury “calculator” aimed at persuading pregnant women
    to consume more mercury-laden fish)
    ObesityMyths.com (Downplays dangers of obesity and unhealthy foods)
    SweetScam.com (Downplays dangers of high fructose corn syrup)
    LawsuitAddiction.com (Attacks trial lawyers, especially those against trans-fats)
    Trans-FatFacts.com (Inactive. Downplayed dangers of trans-fats)
    SpicySprouts.com (Inactive)
    NeoProhibition.com (Expired
    Activistcash

    People owe it to themselves to read about him, and not fall for HIS propaganda.
    Last edited by jetsmom; Sep. 8, 2012 at 09:10 PM.



  2. #822
    Join Date
    Jan. 4, 2007
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    TX
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    45,933

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    Quote Originally Posted by jetsmom View Post
    You obviously have blinders on. You are no better than the most extreme PETA person.
    Here is the truth about who runs all of the "company links" you like to link... http://www.bermanexposed.org/

    Activistcash
    Humanewatch
    Centerforconsumerfreedom
    Etc.
    People owe it to themselves to read about him, and not fall for HIS propaganda.
    The important difference there is that the link I provided is the truth, no matter who is providing that truth, annoying that truth is to animal rights groups and their followers as you seem to be, defending them so heartily.

    No, no propaganda there at all, just exposing who those groups are, as others that have crossed them know oh so well.

    An inconvenient truth, is it.



  3. #823
    Join Date
    Jun. 27, 2005
    Location
    KY
    Posts
    4,874

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    bluey,

    you should resurrect the HSUS thread that was started here a few months ago.

    Your copy-and-paste-bla-bla-bla comments are much more appropriate for that topic.

    On this thread you are starting to look as ridiculous as Sue Wallis when she continues to claim that several slaughter houses are on the verge of opening for more than a year now.

    ************************
    \"Horses lend us the wings we lack\"



  4. #824
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    Mar. 18, 2005
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    245

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    Quote Originally Posted by wonderhorseguy View Post
    Are you saying that every horse transported to slaughter is abused?
    Luvmytbs, are you ever going to answer this question?



  5. #825
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    Jan. 4, 2007
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    TX
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    Quote Originally Posted by luvmytbs View Post
    bluey,

    you should resurrect the HSUS thread that was started here a few months ago.

    Your copy-and-paste-bla-bla-bla comments are much more appropriate for that topic.

    On this thread you are starting to look as ridiculous as Sue Wallis when she continues to claim that several slaughter houses are on the verge of opening for more than a year now.
    When your side can't answer, they go to picking on the messenger of inconvenient truths, right?



  6. #826
    Join Date
    Aug. 13, 2003
    Location
    California USA
    Posts
    740

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    Here we go again...
    The basic truth is there are more horses being bred than there are homes for them. Big breeding farms have culls. What ever breed they are raising. There are thousands of TBs and QHs and other breeds that are being bred with no thought about where the ones go that do not meet the grade. Many Saddlebreds find homes with families after their show careers are over. But just as many do not find homes. Same thing with Arabians and QHs.
    Blameing agri-businesses and meat eaters is not the question. Overbreeding of horses is. Just as thousands of dogs and cats are euthenized every year, because people will not spay and neuter their animals. Same with horses. Every horse ought to have a loving home. But it does not happen.
    The only thing that closing down the slaughter houss has done is force the horses to be shipped to Mexico or Canada to be slaughtered there. So this is better? Are theirs any better than ours? NO. So the question is will the big breeders slow down the production of horses? Don't hold your breath til they do. When you find a solution to the problem of unwanted animals I am sure we all would like to know about it. Until then do not become part of the problem by breeding the old mare you have. If she is not top quality animal with a fine disposition you are only perpetuating the problem of unwanted horses. There are not enough Rescue Farms to save all the horses that are starving. And this winter it will get worse. Too many mouths to feed. The family comes first and the horse gets to starve.
    Just My Humble Opinion



  7. #827
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    Jun. 27, 2005
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    KY
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    Quote Originally Posted by wonderhorseguy View Post
    Luvmytbs, are you ever going to answer this question?
    Are you saying that every horse transported to slaughter is abused?

    No, I am not.

    However, the chances of them getting to their final destination without bruises, cuts, broken limbs, bite and kick marks and so on are much, much lower than not.

    From what I have seen just at the auctions, I would guess the fail rate for just the humane loading of horses is over 50%.

    APHIS provides brochures to educate those in the business of how to conduct their trade in a humane way.
    It is absolutely obvious that the majority do not adhere to those instructions, especially since they know that no-one is overseeing the process.

    According to the Canadian version of a FOIA I posted earlier, in 2011 31 horses shipped from the US arrived at Canadian slaughter plants dead.

    Unless the Canadian equivilent to the USDA takes pictures of all the animals that arrive at the plants with severe injuries (as we have seen recorded by the USDA), no official numbers of those incidents will be available.

    ************************
    \"Horses lend us the wings we lack\"



  8. #828
    Join Date
    Sep. 6, 2002
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    167

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    Quote Originally Posted by wonderhorseguy View Post
    I do not believe the U.S. requires any documentation for a horse leaving the country. I know there is none required to go to Canada. The Canadian government requires coggins and health cert. to allow them to enter Canada.
    Slaughter horses as designated by the atending vet that signs the health certificate, do not follow the same regulations as other horses exported or imported (yes, they were imported from Canada and Mexico for slaughter when horses were slaughtered in the U.S.)
    http://www.aphis.usda.gov/import_exp..._exports.shtml

    Slaughter horses are exported with health certificates: VS form 17-140 or VS 17-145 and Owner/Shipper Document VS Form 10-13. EIA or coggins test (VS Form 10-11) is required but apparently from the documents that I have obtained and requests that came back with no records found - isn't required.
    http://www.aphis.usda.gov/library/forms/

    And then there is the EID's.... Equine Identification Documents that are required by both Canada and Mexico that aren't U.S. documents that is an affidavit of a horses lifetime medical history that are fabricated in the U.S. to enable them to ship the horse for slaughter.


    A horse in the U.S. is designated as a ‘slaughter’ horse when a horse dealer obtains a Health Certificate from the attending veterinarian immediately before transporting to a slaughter facility, which has the declaration “These are slaughter horses.” How does a horse, any horse, just become or transpose into a ‘slaughter’ horse without any regulatory oversight typically required in food animal production? There is no distinction in the U.S. between a ‘slaughter’ horse or any other U.S. horse.

    The U.S. horse slaughter dealers don’t ‘produce’ anything – they ‘acquire’ horses from auctions and individuals. They don't take 'pride or care' of the horses they gather, they just want to get them to the slaughter facility while they are still standing. The U.S. horse slaughter dealers are ‘exempt’ from almost all other U.S. animal dealer requirements.



  9. #829
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    Mar. 18, 2005
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    245

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    Quote Originally Posted by Echo View Post
    Slaughter horses as designated by the atending vet that signs the health certificate, do not follow the same regulations as other horses exported or imported (yes, they were imported from Canada and Mexico for slaughter when horses were slaughtered in the U.S.)
    http://www.aphis.usda.gov/import_exp..._exports.shtml

    Slaughter horses are exported with health certificates: VS form 17-140 or VS 17-145 and Owner/Shipper Document VS Form 10-13. EIA or coggins test (VS Form 10-11) is required but apparently from the documents that I have obtained and requests that came back with no records found - isn't required.
    http://www.aphis.usda.gov/library/forms/

    And then there is the EID's.... Equine Identification Documents that are required by both Canada and Mexico that aren't U.S. documents that is an affidavit of a horses lifetime medical history that are fabricated in the U.S. to enable them to ship the horse for slaughter.


    A horse in the U.S. is designated as a ‘slaughter’ horse when a horse dealer obtains a Health Certificate from the attending veterinarian immediately before transporting to a slaughter facility, which has the declaration “These are slaughter horses.” How does a horse, any horse, just become or transpose into a ‘slaughter’ horse without any regulatory oversight typically required in food animal production? There is no distinction in the U.S. between a ‘slaughter’ horse or any other U.S. horse.

    The U.S. horse slaughter dealers don’t ‘produce’ anything – they ‘acquire’ horses from auctions and individuals. They don't take 'pride or care' of the horses they gather, they just want to get them to the slaughter facility while they are still standing. The U.S. horse slaughter dealers are ‘exempt’ from almost all other U.S. animal dealer requirements.
    I have no idea what the purpose of this post is.

    A horse becomes a slaughter horse when it is determined that it will be slaughtered. There is no distinction between a slaughter horse and any other horse in the U.S. because there are no slaughter houses in the U.S. What documentation Canada requires for slaughter horses is up to Canada. There is still nothing required to ship a horse out af the U.S. There is paperwork required to have the horse enter Canada.



  10. #830
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    Sep. 6, 2002
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    167

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    Quote Originally Posted by luvmytbs View Post
    Are you saying that every horse transported to slaughter is abused?

    No, I am not.
    I guess that would depend on your definition of 'abuse'. I don't know very many horse owners that would ship their horses anywhere loose in a trailer with 30 other horses and not expect some injuries. They are legally deprived of food and water up to 28 hours but that isn't checked - you can do the math between DOT driving regulations and distances. Force a horse into a stall where there is blood and or matter and see how they react. Horses are animals that have been known to respond to the slightest touch or signal. Most horses are taught to overcome some of their fears and to trust humans when they do so.



  11. #831
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    Mar. 18, 2005
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    Quote Originally Posted by Echo View Post
    And then there is the EID's.... Equine Identification Documents that are required by both Canada and Mexico that aren't U.S. documents that is an affidavit of a horses lifetime medical history that are fabricated in the U.S. to enable them to ship the horse for slaughter.

    I managed to find a copy of the EID on the CFIA website. It states:

    "Have any drugs or vaccines been administerred to, or consumed by, the animal during the shortest of the following 2 periods: in the last 180 days or the time you owned the animal?"

    So, if I have owned the animal for 7 days and not given it any drugs I can truthfully say no. I can then proceed to ship the animal for human consumption as I am following the law. There is no need to commit fraud as you say is being done. Also if the animal is drug free for 180 days there is no problem. Your lawyers should have told you this if you actually had a suit.



  12. #832
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    Sep. 6, 2002
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    Quote Originally Posted by wonderhorseguy View Post
    I managed to find a copy of the EID on the CFIA website. It states:

    "Have any drugs or vaccines been administerred to, or consumed by, the animal during the shortest of the following 2 periods: in the last 180 days or the time you owned the animal?"

    So, if I have owned the animal for 7 days and not given it any drugs I can truthfully say no. I can then proceed to ship the animal for human consumption as I am following the law. There is no need to commit fraud as you say is being done. Also if the animal is drug free for 180 days there is no problem. Your lawyers should have told you this if you actually had a suit.
    This article provides more information than you will want to know....

    http://habitatforhorses.wordpress.co...eat-and-drugs/

    Have you ever signed an affidavit for court?
    There is also a section that asks how long they have owned the horse.



  13. #833
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    Mar. 18, 2005
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    Quote Originally Posted by Echo View Post
    This article provides more information than you will want to know....

    http://habitatforhorses.wordpress.co...eat-and-drugs/

    Have you ever signed an affidavit for court?
    There is also a section that asks how long they have owned the horse.
    This is a European document. Has nothing to do with somebody selling a horse to a Canadian processing plant. Only Canadian laws apply there. How they document the meat after that I do not know. It also has nothing to do with the legality of the paperwork between the slaughterhouse and the people selling to the slaughterhouse in Canada. Once again your lawyers should have told you this. No I have never signed an EID as I have not sold directly to a processing plant in years. I sell a horse at a sale, no EID required. So long as the buyer does not administer any banned drugs he can truthfully sign the EID. No fraud, no Canadian laws broken.



  14. #834
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    Jun. 30, 2006
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    SF Bay Area, California
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    Quote Originally Posted by sadlmakr View Post
    The only thing that closing down the slaughter houss has done is force the horses to be shipped to Mexico or Canada to be slaughtered there. So this is better? Are theirs any better than ours? NO.
    Just to correct you, even when slaughter of horses was happening here in the U.S., horses were still being shipped to Canada and Mexico, and most likely still would if horse slaughter did come back to the U.S.
    Proud owner of a Slaughter-Bound TB from a feedlot, and her surprise baby...!
    http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e350/Jen4USC/fave.jpg
    http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e3...SC/running.jpg



  15. #835
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    Mar. 18, 2005
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenm View Post
    Just to correct you, even when slaughter of horses was happening here in the U.S., horses were still being shipped to Canada and Mexico, and most likely still would if horse slaughter did come back to the U.S.
    Yes, some did get shipped to Canada or Mexico. Not all slaughter horses had to make the trek to Canada or Mexico though. Now they all have to.



  16. #836
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    Jul. 28, 2004
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    Texas
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    There is a very high correlation in Texas between the pro slaughter people and the breeders. Texas has a law that needs to be changed that classifies horses as livestock so that horse breeders can get a property tax exemption. It reduces property taxes to pennies per acre. Hence the unwillingness to see horses as anything other than "livestock" subject to the same cruelties as cattle and other food animals.

    I wonder how many of the pro slaughter people here are horse breeders or have other ties to the livestock industry.

    Call them on it! Are you pro slaughter folks posting here also breeders?

    I know of countless poeple that are breeding POS horses just so they can keep their property tax exemption. So the property tax exemption not only keeps horses classified as livestock but encourages stupid breeding.
    Rest in peace Claudius, we will miss you.



  17. #837
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    Dec. 31, 2000
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    El Paso, TX
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post
    The important difference there is that the link I provided is the truth, no matter who is providing that truth, annoying that truth is to animal rights groups and their followers as you seem to be, defending them so heartily.

    No, no propaganda there at all, just exposing who those groups are, as others that have crossed them know oh so well.

    An inconvenient truth, is it.
    The link you provided is biased propaganda spun by a lobbyist for BigAg groups. It is no more unbiased than anything the anti slaughter side posts that is linked to anti slaughter websites. The difference is that many of teh anti-slaughter websites have factual documents from the USDA, actual video, etc to back it up.



  18. #838
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    Mar. 18, 2005
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    Quote Originally Posted by ToTheNines View Post
    There is a very high correlation in Texas between the pro slaughter people and the breeders. Texas has a law that needs to be changed that classifies horses as livestock so that horse breeders can get a property tax exemption. It reduces property taxes to pennies per acre. Hence the unwillingness to see horses as anything other than "livestock" subject to the same cruelties as cattle and other food animals.

    I wonder how many of the pro slaughter people here are horse breeders or have other ties to the livestock industry.

    Call them on it! Are you pro slaughter folks posting here also breeders?
    Yes, as I have stated before I am a small time breeder - 2 mares. What is your point?



  19. #839
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    Jun. 19, 2011
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    Quote Originally Posted by wonderhorseguy View Post
    I have no idea what the purpose of this post is.

    A horse becomes a slaughter horse when it is determined that it will be slaughtered. There is no distinction between a slaughter horse and any other horse in the U.S. because there are no slaughter houses in the U.S. What documentation Canada requires for slaughter horses is up to Canada. There is still nothing required to ship a horse out af the U.S. There is paperwork required to have the horse enter Canada.
    You are correct.

    Two divisions. Feeder meat horses are given a TRUCK health certificate. That means they were supposed to be observed when loaded. Those loads entering Canada are scrutinized by a Registered Veterinarian employed by the Canadian Government (not just a bureaucrat). The load is sealed when loaded and that seal is removed by the vet if he wants to do a physical inspection. One vet has a reputation of inspecting over 70% coming in. Truck then resealed. Horses unloaded at Fort MacLeod into a separate feed lot division as the MUST BE SLAUGHTERED within 96 hours. This gives time to get water and feed balance up in the horses.

    The SECOND is where a horse has received all vaccinations (certificates provided by seller at point of sale to auction house). Those horses are entered individually on the manifest complete with markings. These horses MAY be sold from the plant to brokers (they generally do NOT sell to the public due to the problems they had with PETA reps. )



  20. #840
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    Jun. 30, 2006
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    SF Bay Area, California
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    Quote Originally Posted by wonderhorseguy View Post
    Yes, some did get shipped to Canada or Mexico. Not all slaughter horses had to make the trek to Canada or Mexico though. Now they all have to.
    Understood, however, many people erroneously believe the ONLY reason horses ship to Canada and Mexico is because slaughter for human consumption is not legal here. It's important people understand it will STILL happen, not cease to happen.

    And don't think for a second that if Mexican or Canadian slaughterhouses are paying more per pound, that sellers won't hesitate to bypass the U.S and ship across the borders.
    Proud owner of a Slaughter-Bound TB from a feedlot, and her surprise baby...!
    http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e350/Jen4USC/fave.jpg
    http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e3...SC/running.jpg



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