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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by mbm View Post
    well, as someone who is for animal welfare, who is a vegetarian (most of my life) who goes out of her way to ensure that every $$ that i spend goes only to businesses that i think are doing a good job ecologically, economically, animal welfare wise, etc. .

    I am 100% FOR humane slaughter of horses. Even if it is for human food.

    The lack of available slaughter here in the US only HURTS horses.
    Did you miss the memo that we're still exporting the same number of horses for slaughter as when the US plants were open? A little deductive reasoning, please. You can't attribute negative consequences to something that HASN'T CHANGED.

    In fact, all you can deduce is that horse slaughter has NO effect on equine welfare, since we're still slaughtering the same (and recent numbers say more) American horses and yet we're having increased neglect issues....

    The same increases in neglect being seen in ALL animals, and seen in ALL periods of high unemployment.

    If you're going to make assumptions, you need to prove cause and effect. And the only thing the numbers prove now is no correlation.
    "There's something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man" ~ Sir Winston Churchill



  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by JumpingPaints View Post
    Did you miss the memo that we're still exporting the same number of horses for slaughter as when the US plants were open? A little deductive reasoning, please. You can't attribute negative consequences to something that HASN'T CHANGED.

    In fact, all you can deduce is that horse slaughter has NO effect on equine welfare, since we're still slaughtering the same (and recent numbers say more) American horses and yet we're having increased neglect issues....

    The same increases in neglect being seen in ALL animals, and seen in ALL periods of high unemployment.

    If you're going to make assumptions, you need to prove cause and effect. And the only thing the numbers prove now is no correlation.

    Well, what HAS changed is that the US citizen has now no control over how the plants are inspected.
    Nice work.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mozart View Post
    Personally, I think the moderate use of shock collars in training humans should be allowed.



  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by GraceLikeRain View Post
    Or as the world's largest registry they recognize that there are not enough rescues or homes to absorb the number of unwanted horses in this country so they are supporting legislation which provides a suitable alternative......

    Nope. There are thousands of people who defend slaughter. Until a viable alternative is found we see slaughter as a necessary evil.
    Here's the fundamental problem well-intentioned pro-slaughter folks are missing: Slaughter begets slaughter.

    The availability of horse slaughter enables irresponsible, unnecessary breeding. Most of those breeders are stock horse breeders. Go to a midwest auction and they come in with 10 - 15 culls.

    And as a past student of economics, I implicitly understand that the full force of the market is never going to come to bear on irresponsible breeding until slaughter is eliminated. And manufacturing less horses is the ONLY thing that is ever going to improve equine welfare and the overall horse market. Dat's the way markets work.
    "There's something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man" ~ Sir Winston Churchill



  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by mbm View Post
    I am 100% FOR humane slaughter of horses. Even if it is for human food.

    The lack of available slaughter here in the US only HURTS horses.
    Even if it is for human food that the USDA would never permit into the American food chain? I just don't think using foreign food chains to get rid of our excess pleasure/sport/companion horses is a real good idea. We're not breeding food animals here.

    What hurts horses is the lack of a balanced market, supply way over demand. Slaughter exacerbates the problem and many more suffer in the long run.



  5. #25
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    ???

    it hurts horses when they have to travel many extra miles, to countries that don't have to do anything in regards to humane slaughter.

    Equine slaughter is a necessity. the only solution is to make sure that :

    a) horses dont have to travel far
    b) they are killed humanely

    anything else is bad for the horses themselves.

    i really do not understand how anyone can say they are anti slaughter. anti inhumane slaughter ? sure, but against animals dying?

    as for the money trail - there doesn't seem to be any footnotes or references in that article. so who knows how much is fact or fiction.

    But in any case - is there now something wrong with making money? of course slaughter is about money - so is breeding, training, RESCUES, and a multitude of other things that are done with horses.

    anyway, i wont argue. i stated my opinion.



  6. #26
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    can i just ask: why is it bad to kill horses for meat and not cows, chickens, fish, etc?



  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by mbm View Post
    can i just ask: why is it bad to kill horses for meat and not cows, chickens, fish, etc?

    they fart butterflies and poop rainbows.

    Did you miss that in slaughter 101?!

    Well, seriously, the anti horse slaughter faction can't explain it to you.
    Horses are liek pets and stuff...
    But a lot of people have pet cows and pigs.
    Cows have a lot more complex heard structure than horses and pigs are way smarter.

    We don't eat horse...
    well, some wes in the US do eat horses...and the vast majority is going abroad anyhow...

    It's loaded with chemicals....
    well, you ain't eating it, what does it matter to you?
    besides, cows and pigs get a lot of the same medications as horses.

    What did I leave out?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mozart View Post
    Personally, I think the moderate use of shock collars in training humans should be allowed.



  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by JumpingPaints View Post
    Ahhh.... more paranoia about animal rights propaganda and HSUS. Oh no - they're coming to take your cows! And horses! And guns!!! Your husbands are next!!!!

    I definitely need to go into the tin foil hat business.

    This article is a completely rational and evidence-driven appraisal about AQHA and how the horse meat lobby operates. May not be convenient for those of you who want to butcher and eat horses, but nevertheless, it's accurate.
    Not really, it is a rant against the AQHA, just one more fight in the battle the animal rights extremists love to get into.

    There is not anything there about who the AQHA is or how it operates, it is someone sore that the AQHA fought for our rights to have animals.

    Not "evidence driven", more like someone's describing the AQHA like a blind person trying to describe an elephant by touch and getting it all wrong.

    We had this discussion before, you can do a search and save everyone much typing explaining all that is so wrong in that rant.



  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by mbm View Post
    can i just ask: why is it bad to kill horses for meat and not cows, chickens, fish, etc?
    If we were breeding them for meat (and controlling them as a food source), one could argue, it's not.

    But eventually money would be lost when supply exceeded demand, the market would stabilize (more would not be bred) and it still would not be a solution for our unwanted horse problem (which are mostly recreational animals).



  10. #30
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    I would love to see a GOOD English teacher dissect that article!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mozart View Post
    Personally, I think the moderate use of shock collars in training humans should be allowed.



  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rbow View Post
    If we were breeding them for meat (and controlling them as a food source), one could argue, it's not.

    But eventually money would be lost when supply exceeded demand, the market would stabilize (more would not be bred) and it still would not be a solution for our unwanted horse problem (which are mostly recreational animals).
    Oh, yes, the one solution is, like with our small pets, animal control killing millions a year and throwing them out into landfills.
    The way we are going, now you can add horses to that pile.



  12. #32
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    i think that the entire anti lobby is being funded by the guys that come haul bodies away - because really they are the only ones that would gain by not allowing slaughter.



  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by mbm View Post
    well, as someone who is for animal welfare, who is a vegetarian (most of my life) who goes out of her way to ensure that every $$ that i spend goes only to businesses that i think are doing a good job ecologically, economically, animal welfare wise, etc. .

    I am 100% FOR humane slaughter of horses. Even if it is for human food.

    The lack of available slaughter here in the US only HURTS horses.
    Yes.

    Horses are not sacred.



  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alagirl View Post
    Well, what HAS changed is that the US citizen has now no control over how the plants are inspected.
    Nice work.
    Because goodness knows, the USDA did such an exemplary job when the US plants were open, LOL. Did you miss all the pix of horses arriving with gouged eyes, limbs torn of, broken necks or dead?

    Or by that measure, they do such a great job today ensuring animal welfare ((sarcasm intended)) Did you see last week's video of Central Valley Meats??

    Folks need to take off the rose colored glasses and see the cruelty and suffering horse slaughter entails through the entirety of the slaughter pipeline.

    And no, I'm no PETA supporter, but I do believe in basic animal welfare. And not only is horse slaughter patently unnecessary, it involves abuse and suffering that is not preventable by any kind of realistic oversight. Plus I don't support lottery style horse breeding, which is enabled by availability of horse slaughter.
    "There's something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man" ~ Sir Winston Churchill



  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by JumpingPaints View Post
    Because goodness knows, the USDA did such an exemplary job when the US plants were open, LOL. Did you miss all the pix of horses arriving with gouged eyes, limbs torn of, broken necks or dead?

    Or by that measure, they do such a great job today ensuring animal welfare ((sarcasm intended)) Did you see last week's video of Central Valley Meats??

    Folks need to take off the rose colored glasses and see the cruelty and suffering horse slaughter entails through the entirety of the slaughter pipeline.

    And no, I'm no PETA supporter, but I do believe in basic animal welfare. And not only is horse slaughter patently unnecessary, it involves abuse and suffering that is not preventable by any kind of realistic oversight. Plus I don't support lottery style horse breeding, which is enabled by availability of horse slaughter.
    You may not want to be seen as an animal rights extremist supporter, but sorry, your "information" comes directly right out of their propaganda, so what do you expect those reading that to think, but that is what you are pushing here with that rant you posted in your OP?



  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post
    Oh, yes, the one solution is, like with our small pets, animal control killing millions a year and throwing them out into landfills.
    The way we are going, now you can add horses to that pile.
    Speaking of small pets, if we had dog/cat meat factories, you can be sure the puppy and kitten millers would be their highest users.

    We need to apply basic economic principles here. Horse slaughter is driven by demand for horse meat overseas. Has absolutely ZIP to do with our oversupply of horses. If you are legitimately concerned about the oversupply of horses, there's one long-term solution: Stop making so many. And for that you must ban slaughter, because it increases the number of horses bred.
    "There's something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man" ~ Sir Winston Churchill



  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by JumpingPaints View Post
    Speaking of small pets, if we had dog/cat meat factories, you can be sure the puppy and kitten millers would be their highest users.

    We need to apply basic economic principles here. Horse slaughter is driven by demand for horse meat overseas. Has absolutely ZIP to do with our oversupply of horses. If you are legitimately concerned about the oversupply of horses, there's one long-term solution: Stop making so many. And for that you must ban slaughter, because it increases the number of horses bred.
    You keep forgetting a little detail in your "economic models", that horses happen not to be "manufactured" and inspected and defective ones thrown away in the dustbin.

    There will always be a certain number of horses unwanted, for many reasons.
    We were lucky when we had slaughter to at least use them one more time, as the natural, renewable resource a dead horse is.

    Now, I think you have let animal rights extremist propaganda maybe blind you to the differences between use and abuse, the way you keep bringing abuse to the table.
    That is one of their most successful tricks of the trade in confusing the general public and those that don't really think this thru, just get incensed hearing about any abuse, as we all do, but then overreact, as they intended, into believing banning uses, eventually all uses of animals is the only way to stop abuses.

    If you think about this a bit longer, that would be like banning any driving, so there won't be vehicular accidents.

    Slaughter is inherently not inhumane, as animal rights extremists want you to believe.
    HOW it is conducted can be humane or not.
    I have seen horses killed in slaughter plants and the horse didn't know any more what was happening than being euthanized in a vet's office.

    Why not work on making slaughter as good as we can?
    Because that doesn't fit the goal of using slaughter as a controversial issue for animal rights groups goals and help fill their coffers.



  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by mbm View Post
    I am 100% FOR humane slaughter of horses. Even if it is for human food.
    Speaking of farting rainbows and pooping butterflies.... there has been evidence, piled on top of evidence that factory horse slaughter has never been humane (and for us realists cannot ever be humane).

    - 900 page USDA FOIA report of Beltex when it was open in Texas showing horses arriving at the plant with eyes gouged out (purposely as admitted by kill buyers to prevent fighting during transport), legs broken or torn off, lacerated or downed / dead. During that period one KB arrived with four DOAs in one load. And hasn't missed a beat since, continuing to operate business as usual trucking to plants in MX and CAN.
    - European report showing that unsegregated slaughterbound horses had a 28% chance of illness or injury after a mere 12 hours in transport. Horses going to the US plants had a trip that was anywhere from 10 hours to several days as KBs went from auction to auction to get a full load
    - A new, state-of-the-art slaughter plant designed by Temple Grandin was shut down for humane violations, which included a whopping 40% failure rate of humane stunning. One poor horse in the undercover video was stunned 7 times.
    - Countless investigations of cruelty at US livestock auctions once horses are destined for slaughter, including excessive whipping, use of electric prods and hitting horses with sticks and pipes.

    And with the exception of the Canadian plant (which is better designed than any US plant ever was) all of these egregious humane infractions happened on US soil. How on EARTH do you think it could be done humanely?
    "There's something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man" ~ Sir Winston Churchill



  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by mbm View Post
    well, as someone who is for animal welfare, who is a vegetarian (most of my life) who goes out of her way to ensure that every $$ that i spend goes only to businesses that i think are doing a good job ecologically, economically, animal welfare wise, etc. .

    I am 100% FOR humane slaughter of horses. Even if it is for human food.

    The lack of available slaughter here in the US only HURTS horses.
    How has it hurt? We slaughtered more US horses this yr than we did when we had slaughter here. Still have the same humane violation/transport violations, same transport distances as when we slaughtered here since the KB don't ship to the closest plant.
    There have been more than 5000 horses abandoned in the desert here in TX/NM this yr by KB, that were rejected for slaughter. Far more than have been abandoned by owners.



  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by mbm View Post
    ???

    it hurts horses when they have to travel many extra miles, to countries anything else is bad for the horses themselves. that don't have to do anything in regards to humane slaughter.

    Equine slaughter is a necessity. the only solution is to make sure that :

    a) horses dont have to travel far
    b) they are killed humanely



    i really do not understand how anyone can say they are anti slaughter. anti inhumane slaughter ? sure, but against animals dying?

    as for the money trail - there doesn't seem to be any footnotes or references in that article. so who knows how much is fact or fiction.

    But in any case - is there now something wrong with making money? of course slaughter is about money - so is breeding, training, RESCUES, and a multitude of other things that are done with horses.

    anyway, i wont argue. i stated my opinion.
    The horses killed in Canada and Mex are killed using the same EU regs that we used. There are a few thousand horses a yr killed in MEX by knife to the spine, whose meat is used in mex factories. The same number of horses have been killed by that method now, as when we had slaughter here. Mainly because the number of workers they are feeding is pretty stable. Us having slaughter didn't change the number of horses slaughtered by knife in Mex. The horses that caused the increase in horses exported to mexico are killed in EU factories by Captive bolt/gunshot, just like we used.

    The KB routinely shipped across country to SH 24-28 hrs away when we had sh here. Baker would ship from BH or Sugarcreek to Dallas Crowne, even though Cavel was closer. It depended on who they had a contract with.

    Close sh also don't stop neglect. The largest horse neglect case in TX was just outside of Dallas when the Dallas Crowne SH was open. The owner that neglected them was a VET.



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