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  1. #361
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    I am envious of those who have posted today. The quality of the post, the choice of words and the information imparted.

    As for the accusation that the pro side has not answered the question..that was also answered correctly...you did not get the answer you wanted...but they have been anwered.

    UNLIKE

    My yet to be answered question: Give me a SOLUTION...I have explained the reason for the 60 day time line.

    AND

    Slaughter is ONLY AN OPTION.



  2. #362
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    The pot calls the kettle on Chicken Little jeez.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alagirl View Post
    No he has not.
    Because you do not like the answer does not mean it was the wrong one or not given.
    Apparently you wanted the horse.
    And apparently there are enough nobody wants, not even the 'Kill Buyer' at even the lowest of prices, almost given away.




    What about them?
    You can't fix stupid and even gullible is hard to change.
    OMG they have been tricked...Seriously, you think that in the current market the KB needs to trick anybody?

    OMG the horse is stolen...
    If we bother with all the 'what ifs' we might as well shoot all the horses right now, because nobody has a crystal ball to predict the future. Any one of them could end up in an abusive situation or stolen....

    And, in case of the notorious cases of Southern Florida: would a legal option exist, the illegal one would soon fall out of favor.

    In short: you are grasping for straws. Worst case scenario. Chicken Little much?



  3. #363
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    Exactly - nobody is getting out alive.
    I'm getting cremated myself

    Quote Originally Posted by Isabeau Z Solace View Post
    I spent a few hours with a woman recently who told me about her struggle to save her 30 year old horse who had foundered. She admitted to 'putting the horse through hell,' but then the horse survived until 32 when it succumbed to cancer.

    That is sick. In my personal experience, I see too many people nursing along corpses that can't fall down because the vet, the owner, and the feed companies can continue to squeeze $ and 'enjoyment' out of them.


    This culture of prolonging the lives of these animals until chemical euthanasia yields only a toxic corpse is not environmentally responsible.

    I would see human embalming phased out as well. I believe a preserved human corpse will last about 40 years before it finally starts to decay.

    We've got a crazy fear of death and an insane obsession with somehow 'defeating it.'



  4. #364
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenm View Post
    Wow...your true colors are really showing. There is nothing stupid about someone accidentally giving their horse to a kill buyer. FYI, around here, the KBs DO lie. My neighbor has repeatedly been asked by one if he could pay her to use her son to be part of his "perfect family looking to give horses their forever home". So yes, I know for a fact that they do need to trick people. You may find this hard to believe, but I do know what I'm talking about and don't appreciate your snide and pretty heartless response.

    As you someone who doesn't own a horse, I can't pose the what if it were your horse question. But based on the harshness of your post, I'm guessing you wouldn't care if your horse was stolen and sent to slaughter. After all, nobody has a crystal ball to predict the future.
    Thank you for the bedtime story hour

    NONSENSE

    That is a story...no more...no less... that DID happen with slaughter horses were worth $500 and up however we have not seen those days for a very very VERY long time..

    Look at facts. A horse will sell to a meat buyer for $10-the maximum any will pay for a drafty is $340 and it better have "founder type" fat deposits.

    The cost of gas to pick the horse up...travel time, equipment used...AND if it was a family pet it will test positive for dewormer or other drugs so it will have to be feedlot maintained for SIX MONTHS..

    Did I find it hard to believe...???? I think it was Tinker Bell said YOU HAVE TO BELIEVE PETER...YOU HAVE TO BELIEVE


    At least that story had an amusing ending



  5. #365
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    I want a solution! I want (yes I) SOMEONE to show me how horse slaughter from home to dead is not inherently abusive. Show me.



  6. #366
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    Ah, finally we stop throwing turds at each other like monkeys and bring up a Valid Question:

    Given these prices for horses, what is the profit margin for a KB who buys a load of these at say New Holland and drives them all the way to Canada?

    I'd like to see it broken down:

    Price paid for Horses by processor, minus:

    Purchase Price of Horses
    Diesel fuel
    Driver's food etc.
    Truck licenses, border crossing fees, weigh stations, tolls and inspections
    Repairs & Maintenance

    How much are they really making? I'd have to bet that this is a marginal enterprise at best right about now. That may be the weakest link in the entire chain . . . anyone out there who can plug some hard numbers in there?



  7. #367
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    These numbers are the "OFFICIAL" numbers from MANTA.

    Current:

    Ryan Horse Farms LLC in Elizabethtown, KY is a private company categorized under Farms. Our records show it was established in 2004 and incorporated in Kentucky. Current estimates show this company has an annual revenue of $97,000 and employs a staff of approximately 1.


    Before Jim Ryan was killed in an accident hauling a load of horses:

    Ryan Horse Co Inc in Elizabethtown, KY is a private company categorized under Unclassified. Our records show it was established in 1999 and incorporated in Kentucky. Current estimates show this company has an annual revenue of $160,000 and employs a staff of approximately 2.


    Sugarcreek Livestock Auction (LeRoy Baker) in Sugarcreek, OH is a private company categorized under Livestock Services, Except Veterinary. Our records show it was established in 1984 and incorporated in Ohio. Current estimates show this company has an annual revenue of $860,000 and employs a staff of approximately 20.
    ETA: Baker also dabbles in cattle.

    Just as an aside: Then you have Frank and Monica Carper of Camelot ( no wonder they are retiring, thanks to CHW):

    Camelot Stables in Cranbury, NJ is a private company categorized under Wholesale Horse Dealers. Our records show it was established in 1958 and incorporated in New Jersey. Current estimates show this company has an annual revenue of less than $500,000 and employs a staff of approximately 1 to 4.
    Last edited by luvmytbs; Sep. 2, 2012 at 08:02 PM.

    ************************
    \"Horses lend us the wings we lack\"



  8. #368
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    Depends a lot, though, on whether those figures are gross or net. Hell, look at gross receipts, and even I look good!



  9. #369
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    Quote Originally Posted by SwampYankee View Post
    Depends a lot, though, on whether those figures are gross or net. Hell, look at gross receipts, and even I look good!
    I am certain they are gross, the ones that actually make it on the books.

    Outside the auction quite a few 'business dealings' (sorta, kinda) are conducted with cash and no paper trail.

    ************************
    \"Horses lend us the wings we lack\"



  10. #370
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fairfax View Post
    Thank you for the bedtime story hour

    NONSENSE
    I am really tired of repeating myself on these threads, and so I won't.

    But in the case of your post, I guess you weren't around back in the late 80s/ early 90s when a Virginia couple was busted for offering 'great retirement homes' for horses- even signing agreements with those owners who asked for them, with terms and conditions, visitation rights, etc. Would chat up those owners whenever they called, yes, Dobbin is doing great, we'll send you some pics, etc.

    Every time they had a trailer load, they took them to the slaughterhouse in CT that was still in operation at that time.

    Including a friend of mine's retired field hunter. Her friend's horse was found at the plant before being put down. Just a stroke of luck.

    These folks were in fact prosecuted, paid fines and did some jail time if memory serves (not enough probably but better than none).

    So in context, I would call 'nonsense' on the belief that nobody buys horses to slaughter under false pretense. Sorry, but like JenM I have friends with real world experience.



  11. #371
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    Around that same time that plant was paying so high that you had to watch out that unattended horses wouldn't disappear right out of your fields!

    My gates were all padlocked with heavy chains . . .



  12. #372
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beverley View Post
    I am really tired of repeating myself on these threads, and so I won't.

    But in the case of your post, I guess you weren't around back in the late 80s/ early 90s when a Virginia couple was busted for offering 'great retirement homes' for horses- even signing agreements with those owners who asked for them, with terms and conditions, visitation rights, etc. Would chat up those owners whenever they called, yes, Dobbin is doing great, we'll send you some pics, etc.

    Every time they had a trailer load, they took them to the slaughterhouse in CT that was still in operation at that time.

    Including a friend of mine's retired field hunter. Her friend's horse was found at the plant before being put down. Just a stroke of luck.

    These folks were in fact prosecuted, paid fines and did some jail time if memory serves (not enough probably but better than none).

    So in context, I would call 'nonsense' on the belief that nobody buys horses to slaughter under false pretense. Sorry, but like JenM I have friends with real world experience.
    Not only have I been around I have been showing horses since 1956 I was around for the start of the rescue movement when the starving TB's of Rex Ellsworth of California (owner of Swaps Kentucky Derby Winner) was made public. We acquired 9 mares and were able to help find BUYERS for over 150 more. Then we were involved with the Bentwood Arabian fiasco in Waco Texas around 1988..and that too was enormous with a few hundred undocumented horses.

    We watched as the prices on feeder horses rose significantly and yes, there were thefts however my comment was it would be fiction NOW that someone would be encouraging a person to enter into a scam to con horses out of people for slaughter. Heck..just go to Craigs List...there are hundreds FOR FREE

    my experience is first hand and I do not have to make up stories and attribute them to others...

    Now...for folks who are still in denial about HSUS and their devious plans. Modern Arabian has posted a three page letter. I am unable to provide a link to it yet (not appearing on the web) however I have contacted the author to please send me a copy for posting. On Speak Easy, there were a few comments and this was one of his replies:

    None of the warnings in the letter are exagerated. In order to do research for the article I attended an HSUS sponsored training for animal control officers. It was tuly stunning how a group of people with legal authority sat there like sponges, nodding their heads while they were instructed on how to invade the privacy of animal owners, deceive them about the purpose of their visit, pretend to be their friends, shop around for HSUS friendly vets and judges, and distort "evidence".

    My hope is that those who are not aware of what they are up against will give the letter a good read and recognise a wolf for wolf no matter how much fleece they wrap around themselves.




    It was posted by "maple rob". I hope to have the link or letter soon to post



  13. #373
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fairfax View Post
    I am envious of those who have posted today. The quality of the post, the choice of words and the information imparted.

    As for the accusation that the pro side has not answered the question..that was also answered correctly...you did not get the answer you wanted...but they have been anwered.

    UNLIKE

    My yet to be answered question: Give me a SOLUTION...I have explained the reason for the 60 day time line.

    AND

    Slaughter is ONLY AN OPTION.
    I've given suggestions on numerous threads...export tax of around 1500.00 on all horses sold that cross the borders. Donate/divide up the money raised from that to each State vets office to fund euth clinics, gelding clinics and hay banks for people that show a financial need, and give some to AC's for care of seized horses. Require breeding licenses where people pay maybe 500.00 for any live foal born. People buying quality foals, like nice warmbloods for show, thoroughbreds expected to perform at racing, High dollar QH's that should excel in the show/performance world will be able to recoup that money on the price of the foal. Grade horses won't be worth breeding unless you keep them for yourself and train them, then sell them. Use the money raised from breeding licenses to either fund the things above, or have it go into a breed registry euth fund, so that at any time in the horse's life when he needs to be euthed, it is paid out of that fund.

    Before anyone screams that "we're having to pay money", well, if we had SH in the US, it's estimated to cost taxpayers 5 million dollars a yr to fund inspectors. So people that don't even OWN horses are penalized. Plus there are the court costs for EPA violation prosecution, plus water/sewer system upgrades that need to be paid for.
    Hillary Clinton - proven liar, cheat, traitor and defender of rapists! Anyone but Hillary 2016! https://www.facebook.com/AntiHillary2016



  14. #374
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetsmom View Post
    I've given suggestions on numerous threads...export tax of around 1500.00 on all horses sold that cross the borders. Donate/divide up the money raised from that to each State vets office to fund euth clinics, gelding clinics and hay banks for people that show a financial need, and give some to AC's for care of seized horses. Require breeding licenses where people pay maybe 500.00 for any live foal born. People buying quality foals, like nice warmbloods for show, thoroughbreds expected to perform at racing, High dollar QH's that should excel in the show/performance world will be able to recoup that money on the price of the foal. Grade horses won't be worth breeding unless you keep them for yourself and train them, then sell them. Use the money raised from breeding licenses to either fund the things above, or have it go into a breed registry euth fund, so that at any time in the horse's life when he needs to be euthed, it is paid out of that fund.

    Before anyone screams that "we're having tio pay money", well, if we had SH in the US, it's estimated to cost taxpayers 5 million dollars a yr to fund inspectors. So people that don't even OWN horses are penalized. Plus there are the court costs for EPA violation prosecution, plus water/sewer system upgrades that need to be paid for.
    It is a GREAT HSUS solution. Stop all breeding. It was suggested by HSUS that THEY be incontrol of all of the money collected as no one could trust breed registration bodies NOR the Govenment.

    As we all know the "great" foal is a crap shoot and can turn out to be the monkey of the crop. Extra fees on top of the incredible fees that we breeders already pay, from grain, vet visits , registrations, DNA, Stallion Reports...I think your solution OVER A LONG PERIOD OF TIME..would remove almost everyone from horse ownership but it is not a solution that will solve the incredible current problem that HSUS and the U.S. D.A. was warned about when they closed slaughter houses.

    As you know a 1500$ tax on all horses sold across the border would eliminate ALL sales therefore that is not a solution...only an HSUS Wish List..but you go for it...



  15. #375
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beverley View Post
    I am really tired of repeating myself on these threads, and so I won't.

    But in the case of your post, I guess you weren't around back in the late 80s/ early 90s when a Virginia couple was busted for offering 'great retirement homes' for horses- even signing agreements with those owners who asked for them, with terms and conditions, visitation rights, etc. Would chat up those owners whenever they called, yes, Dobbin is doing great, we'll send you some pics, etc.

    Every time they had a trailer load, they took them to the slaughterhouse in CT that was still in operation at that time.

    Including a friend of mine's retired field hunter. Her friend's horse was found at the plant before being put down. Just a stroke of luck.

    These folks were in fact prosecuted, paid fines and did some jail time if memory serves (not enough probably but better than none).

    So in context, I would call 'nonsense' on the belief that nobody buys horses to slaughter under false pretense. Sorry, but like JenM I have friends with real world experience.
    Look at the woman that was saying she would provide good homes for race horses, and then sold them to slaughter right away. (actually been done numerous times...one was an emt at a track or something like that.)
    Also case in KY Burgess v Ryan I think.
    And very common here in the city where I live. They cruise CL and go with wife and kid and say they want a horse for the kid. Then sell it to slaughter.
    Hillary Clinton - proven liar, cheat, traitor and defender of rapists! Anyone but Hillary 2016! https://www.facebook.com/AntiHillary2016



  16. #376
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fairfax View Post
    It is a GREAT HSUS solution. Stop all breeding. It was suggested by HSUS that THEY be incontrol of all of the money collected as no one could trust breed registration bodies NOR the Govenment.

    As we all know the "great" foal is a crap shoot and can turn out to be the monkey of the crop. Extra fees on top of the incredible fees that we breeders already pay, from grain, vet visits , registrations, DNA, Stallion Reports...I think your solution OVER A LONG PERIOD OF TIME..would remove almost everyone from horse ownership but it is not a solution that will solve the incredible current problem that HSUS and the U.S. D.A. was warned about when they closed slaughter houses.

    As you know a 1500$ tax on all horses sold across the border would eliminate ALL sales therefore that is not a solution...only an HSUS Wish List..but you go for it...
    Nowhere did I state stop all breeding. Just stop breeding horses that aren't worth more than 500.00 breeding license. And you pro slaughter people want to raise the bottom price of a horse...well there it is. The solution to raising the bottom price. If a foal cost 500.00 to put on the ground the bottom/break even price, (if you did pasture breeding with little expense, as some big QH ranches do out here (and then send 35 long weanlings to slaughter), then the bottom price is 500.00. Bottom price is now raised. If someone can't afford to buy a horse (and 500.00 is minimal) they shouldn't own one. They are a luxury.
    And Mexico currently charges 1500.00 or so to import one to the US. So that is only fair. Someone wanting a quality horse, that is priced at 10k or higher is not going to not buy it because it is 11500 instead. If you are looking for a 1000.00 horse, you can usually find those easily in your own country.
    Hillary Clinton - proven liar, cheat, traitor and defender of rapists! Anyone but Hillary 2016! https://www.facebook.com/AntiHillary2016



  17. #377
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fairfax View Post
    I am envious of those who have posted today. The quality of the post, the choice of words and the information imparted.

    As for the accusation that the pro side has not answered the question..that was also answered correctly...you did not get the answer you wanted...but they have been anwered.

    UNLIKE

    My yet to be answered question: Give me a SOLUTION...I have explained the reason for the 60 day time line.

    AND

    Slaughter is ONLY AN OPTION.
    I have posted on just about every thread on this topic about a great plan some vets at UC Davis came up with for dealing with unwanted horses. It's a well thought out plan that would work if the pro slaughter people would get their heads out of the sand and stop believing there are no options.

    There are several ways it could be funded including putting a donation option on entry forms.

    Most people on the anti side are against the large scale factory type facilities, which Temple Grandin said would be too costly to build and as well as operate humanely. Why not come up with local abbatoirs so horses don't have to suffer during transportation and more importantly, don't experience fear and terror right before they are killed. Why not? Because it would cost too much money.

    FYI, as I have pointed out, those on the pro side have historically dodged questions, especially when they are on a personal level such as about how they would feel if their own horses were tortured before they were killed. Instead of answering, they generally just attack the person who asked the question.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fairfax View Post
    Thank you for the bedtime story hour

    NONSENSE

    That is a story...no more...no less... that DID happen with slaughter horses were worth $500 and up however we have not seen those days for a very very VERY long time..

    Look at facts. A horse will sell to a meat buyer for $10-the maximum any will pay for a drafty is $340 and it better have "founder type" fat deposits.

    The cost of gas to pick the horse up...travel time, equipment used...AND if it was a family pet it will test positive for dewormer or other drugs so it will have to be feedlot maintained for SIX MONTHS..

    Did I find it hard to believe...???? I think it was Tinker Bell said YOU HAVE TO BELIEVE PETER...YOU HAVE TO BELIEVE


    At least that story had an amusing ending
    Why not just come out and call me an outright liar?! I will happily put you in touch with my neighbor and her 10 year old son and they can tell you the story themselves. (Or would they also be lying?)

    Things are different depending on what party of the country we live in. I happen to live an area where the majority of the horse owners pay thousands and thousands of dollars for their horses. Do you think they are aware of slaughter...? I'll answer for you: NO. How do I know this? I am frequently complimented on my horse at shows, and people are shocked to find out she is a feedlot rescue. This one horse alone has done more to educate people than I could ever have hoped.

    Kill buyers in Northern California are often illegal immigrants who only deal on a cash basis. They drive brand new trucks with state of the art everything. Their overhead is next to nothing. And guess what: the average person trying to rehome a horse knows very little about slaughter. On our local horse forum, anytime someone finds a CL ad for a free horse, a number of people will contact the ad poster and alert them to the FAKE FAMILY SCAM in which a very nice man and his wife and kids come to pick up the horse and promise to love it forever. There is even a young couple who look quite innocent who also prey on these unsuspecting people.

    It's no secret that I am against slaughter and always will be, especially since there are options that could work if people worked together and actually cared to give it a try.

    Accusing me of creating fairy tales and making up stories is immature and just plain nasty. I don't need to sensationalize the truth.

    If you chose to not believe me, that's your problem. I don't hide behind a fake name, and I have no problem putting a picture of myself up, which is more than I can say for 99% of the people who have posted on this thread.
    Last edited by jenm; Sep. 3, 2012 at 12:38 AM. Reason: added a word
    Proud owner of a Slaughter-Bound TB from a feedlot, and her surprise baby...!
    http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e350/Jen4USC/fave.jpg
    http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e3...SC/running.jpg



  18. #378
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    My two horses, Suzy and Echo were stolen from me by deception on April 15th, 2012 by Marvin and Misti Olson from Darwin, Minnesota. I have been informed through attorneys that they were sold to Keith Tongen and have been offered the $329 that they recieved for each one. It is the same dollar amount that Lefever got from Rotz who sells to Viande Richelieu - same as Tongen. I believe Tongen lied to me repeatedly and still had my horses wehn I called him repeatedly desparately trying to get them back. I had told him if he got them, I would buy them back.
    They don't have a consious....
    These people drove 600 miles one way to get my horses.
    I had also informed all of them before they were shipped, including the slaughter facility that my horses were not drug free and any paperwork recieved would be falsified.



  19. #379
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    Quote Originally Posted by Echo View Post
    My two horses, Suzy and Echo were stolen from me by deception on April 15th, 2012 by Marvin and Misti Olson from Darwin, Minnesota. I have been informed through attorneys that they were sold to Keith Tongen and have been offered the $329 that they recieved for each one. It is the same dollar amount that Lefever got from Rotz who sells to Viande Richelieu - same as Tongen. I believe Tongen lied to me repeatedly and still had my horses wehn I called him repeatedly desparately trying to get them back. I had told him if he got them, I would buy them back.
    They don't have a consious....
    These people drove 600 miles one way to get my horses.

    Interesting...all your posts on COTH have been on 'slaughter issues' without exception.
    As far back as 2005...
    So now somebody 'stole' two of your horses....hmmm

    color me skeptical.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bristol Bay View Post
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    GNU Terry Prachett



  20. #380
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    Why would someone go to all of that effort when their selling price to Mexican slaughter is only going to be around $200.00 AFTER they have their shipping costs...Must be nice to live in an area where no one knows about slaughter. My friends in the upscale Santa Barbara area (Goleta) even know about it and they only have show dogs.

    Everyone in the world knows I am Leo Maxwell of Coutts Alberta...have no problem and have never hidden behind the name Fairfax is for Fairfax Farms and I breed American Saddlebreds. I currently own around 15 or so (I don't want to truly know...)

    The U of D --have you read their minimal care standards? Stalls MUST BE 12 feet 5 inches by 12 feet 5 inches...would eliminate every show facility in the U.S. Where did they get that number from. Well it would appear that the writer, who was allowed to publish it under the heading of U of D is from HSUS and he took the study froim Britain..where they were conducting a stud of R.E.M. in SHETLAND PONIES> in order to have an ideal study they decided on the size of stall so the pony could stretch out in every direction which would give them an accurage REM reading. The writer took that information and applied it to :"standard" horses.

    There are so many other HSUS touches...but what was most interesting was the fact...FACT....that U of D attempted to have this study put in place AS LAW (including all horses must be groomed daily) and a variety of other studies. He quoted the Henneke scale and absolutely refused to admit that he knew nothing about interpretation of it (the study, according to the author was NOT to be used for any reason EXCEPT to judge the ideal body weight for a QUARTER HORSE MARE FOR BREEDING....They were contacted and were asked to remove the statement from their website that THIS WAS THE LAW....it was challenged Parisio vs U of D.

    Parisio lost but won...because it was clearly stated by the courts that IT WAS NOT A LAW...therefore it could not be challenged as a law...but still the U of D keeps in on their website stating it is law.

    And you want any breeder to trust them?

    If slaughter was such huge money the prices for horses would be high at the bottom end instead of 35 dollars. Horses are just NOT SELLING right now...even at the high end. The Polish National sale was a DISASTER for the first time in 20 plus years. Everyone is waiting until after the election

    I wouldn't mind paying $500 per foal...however how would I trust any registration body as most of the associations are on the brink of bankruptcy...they would use the money and they would go under when it was demanded they provide it. HSUS or PETA with my money?????

    Wait until you are made aware of the newest lawsuits that are in the process of being filed. against HSUS CORRUPTION, FRAUD, and more...I will keep you informed in 2013 as it goes into production...


    Be against slaughter...that is great..buy as many horses as you can afford to save...Wonderful

    As for perfect slaughter houses...like hospitals for people...they will never exist however I HAVE MONITORED a slaughter house for TWO YEARS...have you ever been to one? If so..which one and when?

    Fort MacLeod has proven it can be done...100% of the time? NOPE...but it sure is nothing like everyone who is anti slaughter pretends it is like...



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