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  1. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by luvmytbs View Post
    You are linking to crazies.
    The same kinda of crazies who burn down abortion clinics.

    Show me a COTher who aligns themselves with those type of terroristic acts.
    Some people all the need to do is look in the mirror.

    Some by...

    Spreading their message.

    Their propaganda.



  2. #162
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    This whole thread as so many others are about spreading animal rights propaganda.
    From the first post and all along, right out of animal rights websites and their propaganda, that is all we keep hearing, time and again.
    Some of that propaganda is getting a bit of age, slaughter plants in the USA have been closed several years now.

    "This is the season", where non-profits get most of their donations, for some more than 3/4ths of their income.
    I expect this thread won't be the only one, more will show up.



  3. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alagirl View Post
    You do.

    You are spreading their message.

    Their propaganda.

    of course, not even ALF claimed them. I am sure the lawyers told them not to.

    There were enough crazier here on COTH, ready to tar and feather the truck driver who wrecked with a load of drafts. And I am not speaking about the 3 angels driver.

    there were enough crazies on COTH to get nasty with a breeder for selling a couple of old horses at an auction...
    the deranged and unhinged element is closer by your side than you care to admit.
    the company you keep and all that jazz...

    And all that coming from someone who

    doesn't own a horse,

    has never been to a low end auction, let alone spent 8 years at every single one of them,

    has not walked through the kill pen to alert management of injuries and fights (mostly to no avail).

    has not watched 50 horses being loaded (very forcefully most times) onto a DD with Ontario license plates at 2:00 am, after they sat in the uncovered kill pen for 8 hours with no water in 95 degree heat. (5 years of that, when Cavel was still open and much, much closer)

    has not been to local feedlots to search for stolen horses.

    As far as I am concerned, you have no credentials to speak on the matter of what happens in the slaughter pipeline.

    My opinions are not based on propaganda of RARA's, they are based on real life, in person experiences over many years.
    I do not wish the images I have in my head on anyone.
    Last edited by luvmytbs; Aug. 30, 2012 at 06:34 PM.

    ************************
    \"Horses lend us the wings we lack\"



  4. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alagirl View Post
    You do.

    You are spreading their message.

    Their propaganda.

    of course, not even ALF claimed them. I am sure the lawyers told them not to.

    There were enough crazier here on COTH, ready to tar and feather the truck driver who wrecked with a load of drafts. And I am not speaking about the 3 angels driver.

    there were enough crazies on COTH to get nasty with a breeder for selling a couple of old horses at an auction...
    the deranged and unhinged element is closer by your side than you care to admit.
    the company you keep and all that jazz...
    In general, extremism always seems to show some degree of craziness. Whether it is RARAs or the Slippery Slope Animal Rights Paranoids. What I find incredibly silly is that the two extreme sides both take have the same mentality that you are either with them or against them. If you do not agree 100% with the RARA's, then you are a mean animal abuser. If you do not agree 100% with the Slippery Slope Animal Rights Paranoids, then you are a simpleton who does not understand that ANY animal welfare is going to lead us to losing all our animals.

    How do both these extreme and very opposite groups not understand that in that huge chasm between their two groups, there are many of us (far more than in both extremes combined) in the middle that have our own opinions/interpretations and are not buying into the propaganda that EITHER group is trying to push.

    I also have to wonder why Ag Gag laws need to be implemented if there is minimal to no abuse going on/if the abuse is being stopped internally/if the abuse is being monitored by the USDA. If the industry is so clean, why are they afraid of people seeing what goes on?
    Annabelle Mayr, Arcadia Farm
    Home of Fitz, Max, Daeo & Austria
    Now over the Rainbow Bridge: Finn, Jake & Seamus



  5. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by ADM7040 View Post
    In general, extremism always seems to show some degree of craziness. Whether it is RARAs or the Slippery Slope Animal Rights Paranoids. What I find incredibly silly is that the two extreme sides both take have the same mentality that you are either with them or against them. If you do not agree 100% with the RARA's, then you are a mean animal abuser. If you do not agree 100% with the Slippery Slope Animal Rights Paranoids, then you are a simpleton who does not understand that ANY animal welfare is going to lead us to losing all our animals.
    Don't be obtuse.
    Those who warn about the ARAs don't go around torching trucks or farms.

    And again, this is not about animal welfare. it's all and exclusively about animal rights.

    But it's par for the course: if you not for the ban you must be by default a hater and not care about the welfare of animals.
    And that is - drum roll please - ARA rhetoric. Nobody wants to be a big mean poopy head or being accused of hating horses, right.



    How do both these extreme and very opposite groups not understand that in that huge chasm between their two groups, there are many of us (far more than in both extremes combined) in the middle that have our own opinions/interpretations and are not buying into the propaganda that EITHER group is trying to push.
    Well, one group is trying to curb your rights as animal owner, the other does not. They are in no way shape or form comparable.

    I also have to wonder why Ag Gag laws need to be implemented if there is minimal to no abuse going on/if the abuse is being stopped internally/if the abuse is being monitored by the USDA. If the industry is so clean, why are they afraid of people seeing what goes on?
    Well, why do we have to have laws regarding speeding or any other kind of regulation?
    because we deal with people.
    Most people break the rules when given the chance. That's why we have to have policemen. And inspectors.
    And laws and regulation to guide them.

    Same why you need stewards and TDs at a horse show.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bristol Bay View Post
    Try setting your broomstick to fly at a lower altitude.



  6. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by 7HL View Post
    Slaughter is not the same as cockfighting.

    Slaughter is not the same as dogfighting.







    Slaughter is killing then processing. We slaughter pigs and cattle. We just say we kill or process chickens.

    If no one screams on COTH about chickens because it is a horse forum, then why do people bring up all kinds on animals on here. Lame arguement.

    Slaughter is killing. Get over it. You are not going to make it nice and pretty. Horses are livestock and meant to be used by humans. Even for consumption.
    There is no one on here who is displaying any misunderstanding that slaughter is killing. Why are you even arguing about the labeling of killing vs processing vs slaughter?
    Annabelle Mayr, Arcadia Farm
    Home of Fitz, Max, Daeo & Austria
    Now over the Rainbow Bridge: Finn, Jake & Seamus



  7. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by ADM7040 View Post
    There is no one on here who is displaying any misunderstanding that slaughter is killing. Why are you even arguing about the labeling of killing vs processing vs slaughter?

    oh come on, did you miss it?

    'cock fighting is illegal but people still keep poultry'

    Just scroll up a little...it's all there!
    Quote Originally Posted by Bristol Bay View Post
    Try setting your broomstick to fly at a lower altitude.



  8. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post
    The BIG difference in the debate he is that you either align with animal rights extremists that show any abuses and yell from the rooftops BAN!-BAN!-BAN!, that think humans can't do right, ban this and that and all and any use of animals.
    Bluey I don't understand why it is an either or situation to you. Do you truly see the world as so black or white or just specifically this issue? Why do you seem unwilling to believe people (multiple posters from this thread and many others) who state that they are in the middle. They want better regulations for animal WELFARE because the current system has plenty of room for improvement but they are not into the idea of Animal Rights. To you is there no difference between Animal Welfare and Animal Rights? Is there truly no middle ground to you?
    Annabelle Mayr, Arcadia Farm
    Home of Fitz, Max, Daeo & Austria
    Now over the Rainbow Bridge: Finn, Jake & Seamus



  9. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alagirl View Post
    You do.

    You are spreading their message.

    Their propaganda.

    of course, not even ALF claimed them. I am sure the lawyers told them not to.

    There were enough crazier here on COTH, ready to tar and feather the truck driver who wrecked with a load of drafts. And I am not speaking about the 3 angels driver.

    there were enough crazies on COTH to get nasty with a breeder for selling a couple of old horses at an auction...
    the deranged and unhinged element is closer by your side than you care to admit.
    the company you keep and all that jazz...
    No, luvmyTBs in no way has posted anything to imply that she aligns herself/himself with that group of crazies. That's just ridiculous of you to state that.
    Annabelle Mayr, Arcadia Farm
    Home of Fitz, Max, Daeo & Austria
    Now over the Rainbow Bridge: Finn, Jake & Seamus



  10. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetsmom View Post
    THe referenced videos were from Canadian slaughterhouses in the last 2 yrs, one a TG designed, state of the art facility....next...
    It appears you have never been to an equine slaughter facility. First. In Canada they are UNIONIZED. Therefore the poster who stated so mamny hours of non stop unedited and proven the film was not tampered with...either in Canada or U.S.A. would be false for yet another reason. The firlm presented as evidence showed the SAME WORKERS working for a claimed 10-11 hours. IMPOSSIBLE....also the clean done...has to be done even in low end facilities...means high pressure steam and suds. During that time, ALL CAMERAS HAVE TO BE COVERED...kill floors are always monitored by management due to insurance claims if a kill floor employee injurs themselves. NO CAMERA...whether hidden or not...can survive the heat and chemical spray.

    Different kills are for different reasons...i.e. fertilizer, edible food and hide processing. LV mytbs...BULL POOP....they may have loaded however the BORDER VETS ONLY WORK CERTAIN HOURS..huge problems with overloading entering Canada and also.,..why would they sit at a Carvel kill pen in the U.S. when it was still legal ...to kill them there...your "story" isn't passing the .......... test



  11. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by ADM7040 View Post
    No, luvmyTBs in no way has posted anything to imply that she aligns herself/himself with that group of crazies. That's just ridiculous of you to state that.

    The she is a poo stirrer.

    Same difference.

    Doesn't matter, the manure stinks the same from this side as from the other.
    it;s always the same <butbutbutbut> no, it is.

    o yourself a favor and analyze the article not for content but for style and rhetoric.

    It is a superbly written piece of propaganda.

    I wish the average news article was as well written.

    But you still can't pick up a turd by it's clean end. And by the end of the day it is still propaganda

    And propaganda has only one goal: brainwash people.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bristol Bay View Post
    Try setting your broomstick to fly at a lower altitude.



  12. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetsmom View Post
    Pretty good article. It's always been about the money, not what's best for the horse.
    Most breeders of livestock are in it for money. Many horse owners who sell to others try to make a profit if possible. I never heard that slaughter was ever best for the horse, it was ( is) just a necessary option because horses are after all livestock. Slaughter plants are a business and people do eat horses and pay good money to do so. What is your point?



  13. #173
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    Alagirl, you've just quoted me on several posts and then argued about things that had nothing to do with what I posted. I can't even come up with anything further to say to you because you seem to have entered a zone where you are so rabidly against RARA's that you are convinced anyone who is not 100% with your thoughts must be an enemy and therefore attacked. Try taking a breather and re-read things when you have calmed down a bit I actually see some truth to some of your posts, but when you start spouting off that everyone who doesn't agree with you is in bed with the RARA's you come across as unhinged and irrational on the topic.

    Just like I asked Bluey I should ask you as well...why don't you believe that there are people who are holding the middle ground? Why can't you believe that people exist who can decide that abuse needs to stop but animals are still here for our humane use.

    BTW, none of my horses are ever going to an auction or slaughter, they retire here and are euthanized when their time comes. I do not want to become responsible for other people's horses and I don't believe in warehousing horses in holding pens, mustang or otherwise. I have also never visited an Animal Rights website to read the propaganda of HSUS or PETA. I have nothing against the theory of slaughtering horses for human consumption or other use but I do have an issue with the current reality.
    Annabelle Mayr, Arcadia Farm
    Home of Fitz, Max, Daeo & Austria
    Now over the Rainbow Bridge: Finn, Jake & Seamus



  14. #174
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    On any forum there are those who are able to spread the lies and generally they are just accepted...however I reside outside of Coutts, Alberta...5 minutes from the Sweetgrass Montana/Canadian border crossing.

    I board dogs for the Canadian vets who MUST APPROVE the horses entry...they MUST BE INSPECTED. I also board dogs for many broker employees...they tell me the loads coming through.

    FIRST: There are loads of "slaughter imports" however they are INDIVIDUALLY vetted in the U.S. and they have a health certificate. This is so they can possibly be sold other than slaughter...

    SECOND: Feeder Horses come in by the truck load. They are ONLY approved for slaughter and therefore MUST BE INSPECTED...which means usually unloaded or checked for injuries and or numbers. They MUST BE SLAUGHTERED within 96 hours of crossing the border. The VETS are required by law TO REJECT over number shipments or injuries that would cause great pain i.e. missing eyes, broken limbs...

    There ARE truck loads that are over..usually by 1-4 horses hoping a vet will not unload or do an eyeball count and just write off the difference to their counting error. There ARE animals that have been loaded with injuries...here is my complaint with our system...they reject the whole truck load...which means the trucker usually goes down a back road in Montana and just dumps them.....would it not be better to have them go the two hours to MacLeod and be euthanized (which does occur) or immediately killed if the floor is in process?...this also happens...

    Slaughter IS AN OPTION and it should remain as such...if you hate it...DON'T DO IT....



  15. #175
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    Thank you!!!

    QUOTE=PeteyPie;6525706]It doesn't matter whether or not you are a PETA supporter. Some in the pro-slaughter group will spin your arguments and divert from the issue at hand with alarmist exaggerations. The issue is your opinion of horse slaughter, and it's a shame you have to apologize in order to avoid being insulted or misrepresented. It's just a technique to discredit: You don't think women should be beaten? What are you a feminazi? You pay your taxes. You are a leftist? You recycle. What are you some wacko environmentalist?

    I agree with you that cruelty is bad, and that horse slaughter in the United States is cruel -- whether the killing takes place at a plant in this country or outside of it. It is hard to imagine how anyone can argue otherwise, but we all know that money will influence all kinds of bad behavior and justify all sorts of misdeeds in the quest for it.

    Kind people have promoted the idea that if it were done humanely, that is, if the horses were transported humanely, if illegal transport of ill, pregnant, or lame horses were prevented through enforcement of existing laws, if proper humane feed lot practices were done, and if practices on the kill floor were designed specifically for the horse, then slaughter would be tolerable. But only the kind people seem interested in these changes.

    The people in each phase of the industry, the people making the money, have no incentive to change, have shown no indications of change, and will not change unless forced to.

    Would you transport your old horse to a Mexican slaughterhouse? No? Why would anyone? Why would the guy who drives the truck? Why would the guy who brokers the lots of horses? Why would the breeder who breeds 100 Quarter Horses and sends 90 to Mexico? Do you think they lose sleep at night over whether the plant is in that country or ours?[/QUOTE]



  16. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alagirl View Post
    You do.

    You are spreading their message.

    Their propaganda.

    of course, not even ALF claimed them. I am sure the lawyers told them not to.

    There were enough crazier here on COTH, ready to tar and feather the truck driver who wrecked with a load of drafts. And I am not speaking about the 3 angels driver.

    there were enough crazies on COTH to get nasty with a breeder for selling a couple of old horses at an auction...
    the deranged and unhinged element is closer by your side than you care to admit.
    the company you keep and all that jazz...
    So are you also saying that those that are against abortion are also killing abortion doctors/bombing their clinics? The majority of pro life people are normal, peaceloving people who abhor violence. As are the majority of people who are against commercial horse slaughter. There isn't any COTHER that I am aware of, that condones violence against anyone in the slaughter industry. (and I'm not talking about people who blurt out that "they should suffer the same fate, etc, like you see on every thread that shows an abused animal...that's just venting, and even the pro slaughter side does that.)

    If SH were slaughtering humanely for the most part, why have no horse SH filmed for 2 days straight, had the tapes forensically examined to verify they weren't edited, and posted them for everyone to see. It would certainly fight the tapes where that was done, and it was very inhumane. They'd even have the benefit of letting employees know they were being taped. And don't try to say, well they do tape in some cattle SH. Those tapes are only available to people hired by the SH.
    And you have the Ag Gag laws designed to further hide what really goes on. If they were following Humane Handling laws, they wouldn't care who secretly tapes inside.



  17. #177
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    You're my new hero!! LOL

    Quote Originally Posted by SwampYankee View Post
    The bottom line here, folks . . . whatever your notions of "freedom," property law, etc:

    As per the outrage directed against the condition of certain horses in recent CL ads forwarded to COTH, and many, many welfare threads we've read, right now in 2012 in most people's minds it is completely unacceptable to:

    Starve a horse
    Allow it to founder til it's feet curl up
    Turn it out to fend for itself in the wild
    Fail to provide adequate water or shelter

    So by what logic should we sit by and allow horses to be stuffed in trucks and be handled by the sickeningly abusive, atrocious methods listed at the beginning of this thread? In what way do these animals fail to merit the appropriate care that we all agree are required for others? And this means even at the penultimate moment of death. We pretty much all agree that a well-placed gunshot to the head is humane--can't things be slowed down enough to do it this way?

    When I was a kid the local cattle guy did horses; including the culls from our riding school. It was done just a few at a time, like 2 or 3, by this method and my boss made sure he stayed while they were killed so he knew for sure they didn't go on those trucks to Canada, which were horrid even then. Believe it or not, in those days I was not opposed to my own childhood pets going that way--and I certainly see the logic of using the meat. By the same token I have no problem with sending the old or unsound to hunt kennels to be dispatched the same way.

    The thing I have a problem with is the ABUSE. I don't think anyone with a working brain can possibly defend THAT. And if that's your persuasion, you should be frankly barred from any contact with animals!

    Full disclosure, I'm no vegan--I'm a low-carber who eats meat at virtually every meal avidly as evolution intended for us; I've long ago embraced the paradox of having to eat animals while believing them sentient beings. Maybe we should all take a lead from Native American beliefs, eh? They respected and revered the animals that gave them life.



  18. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by JumpingPaints View Post
    Agreed. And I'm not proposing they should either.

    But I do believe our equine partners shouldn't spend their last days enduring the inherent suffering of the horse slaughter pipeline.

    No you just want them stuffed into over crowded rescues, abandoned along freeways, tied to wal- mart hitching rails or just left to starve because the owners can't feed them and rescues can't take them. That is so much more pleasant, i agree.



  19. #179
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    I think we all "get" what you are saying - but by your definition we need to just turn a blind eye to ALL the abuse that goes on - be it slaughter - be it the soring - whatever the abuse may be and let it go so that we defeat what HSUS and PETA want.

    "Someone" is also always trying to tell us what to do with our children. By your definition should we then abuse our children so we don't "lose our rights to do what we want with them?"

    God forbid we should lose any of our rights to be human.


    Quote Originally Posted by Alagirl View Post
    No.
    YOU do not get it.

    Anything we do with our animals somebody does see as abuse.

    You ride, you abuse, you stall them, you are an abuser
    You deworm them, vaccinate you are abusing.

    The people who are behind the push for the ban don't give a rats behind, really what does happen to the animals. They are - after all - better of dead than in the care of a human, any human, and yes, that does include you!

    This is not about somebody beating a child.
    It is not even about somebody beating a horse (if we exclude the dead one that is this ongoing slaughter 'debate')

    This is about a small group of people trying to dictate what the rest of the world can do.

    not every horse going to a low end sale is neglected and starved. Not every horse on CL is. Matter of fact around here we have very few horses on there, almost all are in very good condition and most seem to sell really quick.

    By your definition anybody considered guilty of abuse should be removed from ever having contact....
    Well, Scratch harry off the list, he spurred that poor gray horse bloody, he's an abuser...not to mention he rode that other one till it collapsed, right...

    Every little girl and boy needs to be kept from ever coming into contact with animals, I am sure they all have pulled a cat by the tail some time, or plopped down on that schooly's back a little too hard one time or another...

    Show barns need to be shut down because the horses don't get to frolic 24/7 in lush green pastures...


    I get it:
    Abuse happens.
    Because we deal with living things.
    You work to minimize it, because you can't eliminate it.

    What you don't get is that you are sawing on the branch you are sitting on.
    Nobody who owns any kind of animal is above reproach. In the eyes of those who want the ban, you all are abusers. For now you are the useful foot soldiers, good to rake in the money and spread the word.
    but you know the fate of foot soldiers, right? They are sacrifices. But sooner or later, you, too will be thrown under the bus.

    oh, and those people don't care. I don't think they even respect life.
    If the wellfare of the animals would be the driving power behind the ban they would have NOT pushed for the closure of the US packers without alternative.
    How many times can I say 'I told you so'? As many times as it takes.
    Does that fill me with joy?
    hell no. The horses are only the pawns in this game. You know, the little faceless guys on the chess board, the first one to be taken....


    And one more time for those who only read PETA material:

    Injured horses are a loss for the packer: bruised and torn tissue cannot be sold, adrenalin ruins the meat.

    Yes, there are people int he business who don't care.
    But there are about as many people who don't care in the business of selling lead contaminated toys to infants and poison treats to pampered pets.

    That's where the government regulates things.
    yes it's not perfect either. but do consider that the rest of your food is inspected by the same guys...



  20. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fairfax View Post
    It appears you have never been to an equine slaughter facility. First. In Canada they are UNIONIZED. Therefore the poster who stated so mamny hours of non stop unedited and proven the film was not tampered with...either in Canada or U.S.A. would be false for yet another reason. The firlm presented as evidence showed the SAME WORKERS working for a claimed 10-11 hours. IMPOSSIBLE....also the clean done...has to be done even in low end facilities...means high pressure steam and suds. During that time, ALL CAMERAS HAVE TO BE COVERED...kill floors are always monitored by management due to insurance claims if a kill floor employee injurs themselves. NO CAMERA...whether hidden or not...can survive the heat and chemical spray.

    Different kills are for different reasons...i.e. fertilizer, edible food and hide processing. LV mytbs...BULL POOP....they may have loaded however the BORDER VETS ONLY WORK CERTAIN HOURS..huge problems with overloading entering Canada and also.,..why would they sit at a Carvel kill pen in the U.S. when it was still legal ...to kill them there...your "story" isn't passing the .......... test
    You are flat out wrong. The tapes were forensically examined and found to be unedited. No one stated anything about whether it was the same employees the whole shift. You lost all credibility with me when you supported someone who starved their horses and neglected them.



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